Critique this US strategy

[DarthMaximus]

Alright, if you guys say so….   :-)

:evil:   :evil:   :evil:

Muhuhahahahahahaha!

[Jennifer]

@Nix:

Japan only needs to kill the USA trn´s……  USA pacific fleet without trns are useless.

And you do enought damage for US to pick trn casualties, so Japan win… (or get´s like 3 more rounds, and that is usually enought to win the game)

As America I’ll gladly trade my transports for your fighters/carriers.  And that IS going to be the trade you are going to make.  Meanwhile, you really don’t set me back that much, because I’ll just have more transports comming shortly afterwards.  Meanwhile, I’m gobbling up Islands like crazy.  You might not think East Indies and Borneo are worth that much, but it is 8 IPCs or the value of India, Buryatia, SFE, Yakut and China combined.

Add in American and English units moving into India/Sinkiang (or maybe just a couple Russian infantry a round) and you’ll be drawing negative starting income instead of positive.  And as mentioned, you’re going to be quickly locked into SZ 60/61 while the Allies have free reign.

We don’t need to take out your fleet, once we have you reduced to Japan, Phil, Oki we can build units to help Russia reclaim Europe.

[NoMercy]

Jen,

As Switch as posted… it will take the States WAY to long to accomplish anything in the pacific.

and by going the pacific route.

UK is almost useless… (All of Africa will be in Germanys hand in no time)

Russia will be helpless without american help. (moscow will fall by the time the States are re-building trns in the pacific) considering pretty much Germany’s full might will be sent after the russians and thats 45-50IPC worth a turn to use vs russia.

[ajgundam5]

Can’t UK just reinforce Africa themselves with their transports?

[Jennifer]

Couldnt America put a BB, Trn, Inf, Arm in Solomons on US 1 to be met by the British AC, Fig, 2 TRN, sub and DD?  That’s a pretty good defensive force and it’s in striking distance of Borneo, East Indies and Phil on US2.

You don’t HAVE to wait, in other words.  You can start forcing Japan into making naval decisions which will weaken him starting on US1.  And without diverting assets.  Though, you can compound the damage done to Japan with even 50% of your assets in that theater.  After all, England and Russia are more then capable of keeping Germany from taking Moscow, they cannot beat them, but they can stop them from winning while America withers the Japanese.

[NoMercy]

UK’s Fleet in India SZ cannot reach Sol SZ on turn 1

[NoMercy]

I would have to argue that Russia/UK might have a hard time stopping the Germans from getting them.

Russia will have to turtle after turn 2-4

Germany can hold the North and at least strafe or kill British reinforcements. while perhaps going into Cauc with the Japs.

[ajgundam5]

to be met by the indian fleet meaning that america will go their first so UK will move their fleet closer on UK 1 then on UK2 link up

[NoMercy]

Japan has a start-off fleet around East-Indies designed to kill the British fleet. It could intercept and kill it before it would link up with the States Navy. thats just 1 option.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but I’d much rather Japan try and sink the English fleet then hit the one at Pearl.  I have a pretty good shot at sinking a capital ship with the British fleet too.  We’ve got 1 submarine, 2 transports, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer 1 aircraft carrier.

That’s:

14 or 2 and 1/3 hits on R1

You have 2 fighters, 1 aircraft carrier, 1 battleship.

That’s:

11 or 1 and 5/6 hits on R1

You take 1 hit on BB, 1 fighter.  I take 1 or 2 transports (let’s say 2 for arguement’s sake.)

You are now 1 fighter, 1 carrier, 1 dbattleship vs 1 sub, 1 carrier, 1 fighter 1 destroyer (8 vs 12)

I get 2 hits, you get 1

It’s now 1 dbattleship vs 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer

So we end up with 1 carrier, 1 fighter and that’s about what England is going to end up with ANYWAY if they go after all your ships on UK1.  Meanwhile, you’ve lost 33% of your fighters, 50% of your carriers and 50% of your battleships giving America a golden opportunity to annihillate you after countering Pearl.

[Guest]

You are missing 2 Japan FIGs that can join in that fight usign fighter exchange on the AC…

That changes your odds quite a bit.

And that fleet link-up also leaves Africa in German hands, costing UK not only their fleet, but 1/3 of their income.

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

You are missing 2 Japan FIGs that can join in that fight usign fighter exchange on the AC…

That changes your odds quite a bit.

And that fleet link-up also leaves Africa in German hands, costing UK not only their fleet, but 1/3 of their income.

Uh-huh.  But now you’re short in Hawaii giving America a free Carrier or sinking your capital ships there.

So which do you choose?  You can’t have both, you don’t have the forces for it.  Meanwhile, if you do try for the 60/40% chance of winning both, you have almost no offensive units in Asia for use on J1 or J2.

Russia would love 2 rounds to build up a significant front against Japan with minimal resistance by offensive units.  Meanwhile, Geramny’s getting hammered by all 3 powers since there’s no real Japanese threat on J1 or J2 and it’ll be J3 before they start making a significant pressence…and that’s only if America doesn’t counter Pearl and sink 50% of your carriers and battleships again.

You can’t have it all ways, guys.  You either loose your capitals taking down the Brits or by an American counter attack.  Either way, you’re 50% of initial fighting strength which means you’re behind the power curve navally.

[DarthMaximus]

Now you are getting somewhere.

Jen, is right, about the choices.  This was kind of brought up in the UK Pac fleet thread, but it is one or the reasons why you can’t dismiss the US Pac fleet so easily.  Jen gets it, although we may have different ways of going about it.

Consider this:

UK fortifies entire ME/Pac fleet in sz 30 (with 2 inf from Aus) - I think it is sz 30, I always forget the #'s.
And the Retreat from Ind to Per and Trj to Per.

Now Germany may be licking their chops at Afr, but they shouldn’t b/c UK can strike mulitple territories on UK 2.

But Japan sees this and can take a shot at wiping out the UK fleet, it will cost them some planes maybe an AC and perhaps a shot at Pearl, but hey I can give Afr to Ger in one foul swoop.

But wait, there’s more…

US buys 2 ACs and ftr on US 1 and fortifies in Wus sz.

So we are left with this:

In order to save Afr for Germany by killing the UK fleet, you sacrifice the Pac to the US early (rd 1-2) and US can move as early as rd 2 on Sol and quickly start claimg the high priced islands, since the UK took the brunt of the attack.

Now if Japan doesn’t bite and leaves the UK fleet alone, then UK has it’s choice of landing spots on UK 2 that include FIC, IND, PER, TRJ, EGY, IEA, and the southern Afr territories as well as an island or two.

And the US is free to continue to build up their fleet, cause it shouldn’t take a genius to see with a bulked up Brit fleet in the Indian Ocean and a Powerful US fleet in Wus sz, the only safe place for the Japan fleet is Sz 60/61.  Mission accomplished for the Allies.

The game is all about choices and forcing your opponents to make the tough ones, and in the process give you an advantage.

[Jennifer]

@DarthMaximus:

The game is all about choices and forcing your opponents to make the tough ones, and in the process give you an advantage.

I just wanted to re-emphasize this.  While I’m almost past the learning curve on AAR, this is still a major point that I’ve known from the days of classic.  You force your enemy to move on your time table, not theres.  You tempt him to attack targets that are out of the way so you can move into strong positions in force with minimal losses, you force him into attacking units of no value out of fear, weakening his over all attack forces, and/or you set up positions where he has to attack superior numbers.

What happens if Germany has Africa?  They are +9, England is -9 per round, correct?  Now, what happens if England/America own East Indies, Philippines and Borneo?  USA/UK +11, England -9, Germany +9, Japan -11.  Net gain +2 for the allies, but even more then that, it is much harder to take islands away from dug in defenders then it is to stage armies in Northern Africa and walk around.  On top of that, the Philippines and Borneo are two high priced islands within striking distance of Japan within 1 transports movement. That means what you build can be used the next round to hit their mainland.  That means he has to pull back and make offensive fleet units to sink your fleet…which is great and all, but you have England/Russia taking land in the Mainland, you have America countering Japan’s fleet purchases and building an invasion force and you have Germany jugging away against mino British and full Russian reinforcements desperately trying to grab the Russia capital before Japan falls or before England and America set up ICs and pump out infantry and tanks to move into Russia for extra defense.

And, let’s face it, if you are going KJF, you really don’t care if Germany get’s Africa because it means Japan doesn’t have it.  Reclaiming from Geramny’s a sinch.  They only have 1 transport down there, that’s 2 units a round.  USA/UK have 4 transports in the Atlantic on R1.  That’s plenty of units into N. Africa on UK/USA1 to take and reclaim N. Africa.

[Guest]

By your strat Jen, US does not ahve those TRNs in the Atlantic, they are bound for the Pacific.

And with Germany’s boosted income, a TRN or 2 for the Med is easy enough to accomplish, making Africa (and the Middle East) a serious issue for UK.

If you get UK’s income down into the low teens, and THEN take out the UK fleet as Germany, Russia is screwed.  UK can;t afford to rebuild their fleet, and Germany can easilly maintaine a minimal AF/Naval presence that can wipe out 1-2 units per round keeping UK locked up in London.

Also, the threat of the UK fleet is minimal.  UK has only 10 INF and 1 FIG in all of Africa, the Middle East and the Pacific.  Japan lands that in Asia by J2, Allied fleets or no fleet.  Sure, Japan may be SLOWED, but slowing Japan at the cost of HALTING Britain, and having the US either vacant or only minimal forces in the Atlantic is a BAD trade for the Allies.

If it is PERFECTLY played, you MAY be able to trade Moscow for Japan at 8-11 IPC’s after 4-5 turns of play.  But then you are just talking about a Germany that hits 100 IPC’s around turn 8-9…

[Jennifer]

How are you getting England’s income below 25?  You have 1 transport, England/America have 4 starting, plus whatever England puts in the water.  Thus you have roughly 8+ land units into Africa a round until you give up on taking the land.

Meanwhile, America’s building fleet in the Pac and dropping Japan’s income to the low teens, upper single digits at a rapid pace.  Now Russia has no enemy on her eastern border and can focus entirely on Germany, slowing their advances to a very slow crawl (1 mile of land per fiscal year) at very little cost.

Germany: 35 IPC vs Russia 27 IPC, England 32 IPC (Russia up Finland, England up Algeria/Libya)
Japan: 19 IPC, America 53 IPC

Sounds like loose loose for the Axis.  Unless the Axis get ungodly dice in their favor and/or steal money out of the bank to supplement their soon to be non-existant fleet in the Pacific.

[Guest]

First off… if UK goes after Africa early, their fleet is wiped out early.  If they go late, Germany already OWNS Africa, and UK has to take it back.  Remember, you did not counter Egypt UK1 in order to boost your fleet in the Indian Ocean, so Germany get +2 for Egypt in G1, then +7 or +8 in G2 for FEA, FWA, BC, IEA, T-J, and possibly Rhodeisa.  that is also MINUS 7 or 8 for UK.  G3 they finish you off with UOSA, and Persia, for +10 or 11 as Germany, and the same negative for UK.

Now, you are stacking your fleet someplace “safe” on UK1.  And you did not kill the Kwang TRN as a result.  India falls on J1.  So on UK2, UK is now down 10-11.  On UK3 they are down 13-14.  That is an income of only 16 as UK.

And if Japan decides to “go after” that UK fleet, they are going to bring TRNs along for the ride.  And with just 1 TRN surviving, Australia and New Zealand are very likely targes of early attack (instead of late attack), lose 3 more as UK.

And while doing all of that, I can STILL build enough of a fleet to defend against the US in my home waters, and then I can send surviving forces from near Australia, plus my new naval units near Japan, plus land based AF (at least a BOM) against the US fleet that may finally be moving my way around turn 3-4.

Remember Jen, YOUR strat is to have the US go whole hog into the Pacific, so there are no US forces for Africa.  There are no US TRNs or DSTs to reinforce the UK fleet agianst the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe.  UK faces 1 BB, 3 SUB, 1 DST, 1 AC, 2 TRN, 5-6 FIGs and a BOM with their fleet of 2 BB, 2 TRN, 1 DST  which are split up in 4 different SZ’s to start, and 1 BB, 1 DST are on the bottom on UK1.  Go ahead… defend London AND counter-attack Africa with that force looming.  As Germany, I would be having an orgasm over those odds.

[Jennifer]

America still has 2 transports and a destroyer in the Atlantic.  That’s 4 infantry a round into Africa to be supported by 1 BB, 2 Trn at least of England, so that’s 4 more infantry into Africa.  8 Infantry vs 2?  That means Germany holds Africa for two or three rounds before loosing it.

Meanwhile, Japan cannot get India because it has 4 Infantry, 2 Russian fighters and a tank on R1, and 2 more russian infantry on R2 at least.  So now you’re stalled in India with a rather nice English Fleet and Ameircan fleet joined.  So you either sacrifice your airforce or your fleet to sink it, or give them dominance on the water.

Sure, you can make a killer defensive fleet with Japan at the cost of using airpower in Asia and the cost of building ground forces to attack Russia, meanwhile Russia only needs to invest a little into maintaining Sinkiang/India at a strong enough point to cost Japan big if attacked…and Japan is hardly in a position with it’s fleet cowering in Japan to replace heavy losses against Russian defense forces.

Germany, having a slight edge on Russia, is able to push into Karelia, Belorussia, Ukraine and hold against possible Russian attacks, but cannot get a sufficient enough troop together to break into Caucasus for the IC or Archangelsk.  They are most assuredly down Finland because Russia would probably hit that on R1 knowing the British/American strategy is to bottle up Japan, so they’re going to need the income more.

Only things that really screw this up is a heavy axis bid (9-12 IPCs at least and all of it in Europe to attack the Russian front on G1)

[NoMercy]

As switch as mentioned, as Germany I would love that strat by the allies.

UK isn’t getting Africa back by themselves… Sorry…
if you keep sending 4 Inf to Afr via US thats 12 IPC there… I’m assuming after turn 3-4 US is only making 38 as it is.that would leave high 20’s left to spend on a all out-pacific fleet?  that doesn’t make sense to me.

if UK does a delay attack on Africa (waiting till turn 2 as Darth mentioned) I fail to see this as a way of clearing german troops out of Africa.

How does the UK plan to defend the UK itself? kill the Baltic fleet? kill the joined Med/Baltic fleet? I don’t even see them taking and holding Norway without US or Russia preasure.

Switch i’m on your side for this debate. I don’t see how the allies can recover from letting Germany go full throttle. A full throttle Japan is always less fearful then Germany.

[Jennifer]

Actually, after 3-4 turns US is making 42 again with the addition of at least Borneo or East Indies.  Might even be at 46 with both of them.  12 IPCs to Africa to secure 11 IPCs for England is nothing.

So while germany is putting in a piddly 2 infantry a round, the allies are dumping 8 infantry a round in there.  That’s enough to secure it and start walking into Cuacasus

I also don’t see you killing the fleet.  Remember, UK isn’t putting all that much into the Pacific.  They’re just keeping forces they already had there in there and massed to cause heavy casualties on an unfortunate Japan player who decides to attack them.

Best move for Japan?  Ignore the Brits, sink the Americans.  But even that’s only a delaying tactic because the Brits with the Americans pose a serious defensive force and America doesn’t have to worry about protecting it’s islands like Japan does.