Early Barbarossa

[Ruanek]

@Omega1759:

@Clyde85:

Not to be annoying, but I think we missed the point here, about an EARLY Barbarossa. Lets get past the G1 moves against the UK, and focus here, I for one have never been big on invading the UK, but I see the merrits in it.
Anyway, lets get to the meat of this and talk strats here for Barbarossa! I usually never play as the Germans but I still enjoy reading peoples ideas, if nothing else it helps me plan to play against such strategies. Since I have played a hell of alot more games as the Soviets then I have as the Germans, I’ll talk about it from that perspective.

On SU1, I buy 3 infantry, 3 arty, 2 tanks and a mech. Mind you this is barring a G1 attack. I will move the tank and mech from Stalingrad along with the tank and mech from Moscow and move them to Bryansk. the 2 infantry from the Cucasus to Rostov and the infantry from Archangel to Novgorod. Then I will do the very standared fall back from the borders, leaving 1 infantry in the Blatic states, E. Poland, Karelia and none in Vyborg. The karelian and Vyborg infantry go to Novgorod, the E. Poland and Blatic states go to Belarus, the Ukraine Infantry go to W. Ukraine. I place the 3 infantry in Novgorod, the 3 arty in Ukraine and the 2 tanks and mech in Stalingrad. Thats my opening as the SU, prepare a German counter gearing towards a G2 or G3 Barbarossa and lets get back on topic please

I don’t think the G1 attack is an option for Germany, then we are talking about a G2?

I’m having a hard time seeing how the early Barbarossa can work because ignoring UK navy in early rounds is really detrimental.

What I can see work is for Italy to declare war on Russia I2 and take baltic states with 2 tanks and strat bomber (assuming defense is light). On G3, Germany walks in Baltic States with everything (including planes, as necessary for defence) without declaring war to Russia (5 extra IPC) or declaring war on Russia (to destroy fleet)

Baltic states are a great place to consolidate. Any force that was sent to Karelia is trapped because needs to go back to Leningrad first to retreat. If the SU goes all out to defend Leningrad, then can attack it on G4 if odds are favorable. If odds are not favorable, Italy can open up Belarus on I3 and all German Mech Forces can roll to Smolensk, threatening just about everything.

Not mentioning that need to wait to G3 for mechanized forces in France to come back to Baltic States anyway!

So you can tell my italian plans involve moving the 2 tanks to Slovakia on their first turn.

The UK navy, at least in my experience, isn’t a huge threat.  The relevant portions of it are mostly gone or at least depleted G1, and I haven’t seen the UK do much in terms of building a navy in the West that early.

[Omega1759]

@Ruanek:

@Omega1759:

@Clyde85:

Not to be annoying, but I think we missed the point here, about an EARLY Barbarossa. Lets get past the G1 moves against the UK, and focus here, I for one have never been big on invading the UK, but I see the merrits in it.
Anyway, lets get to the meat of this and talk strats here for Barbarossa! I usually never play as the Germans but I still enjoy reading peoples ideas, if nothing else it helps me plan to play against such strategies. Since I have played a hell of alot more games as the Soviets then I have as the Germans, I’ll talk about it from that perspective.

On SU1, I buy 3 infantry, 3 arty, 2 tanks and a mech. Mind you this is barring a G1 attack. I will move the tank and mech from Stalingrad along with the tank and mech from Moscow and move them to Bryansk. the 2 infantry from the Cucasus to Rostov and the infantry from Archangel to Novgorod. Then I will do the very standared fall back from the borders, leaving 1 infantry in the Blatic states, E. Poland, Karelia and none in Vyborg. The karelian and Vyborg infantry go to Novgorod, the E. Poland and Blatic states go to Belarus, the Ukraine Infantry go to W. Ukraine. I place the 3 infantry in Novgorod, the 3 arty in Ukraine and the 2 tanks and mech in Stalingrad. Thats my opening as the SU, prepare a German counter gearing towards a G2 or G3 Barbarossa and lets get back on topic please

I don’t think the G1 attack is an option for Germany, then we are talking about a G2?

I’m having a hard time seeing how the early Barbarossa can work because ignoring UK navy in early rounds is really detrimental.

What I can see work is for Italy to declare war on Russia I2 and take baltic states with 2 tanks and strat bomber (assuming defense is light). On G3, Germany walks in Baltic States with everything (including planes, as necessary for defence) without declaring war to Russia (5 extra IPC) or declaring war on Russia (to destroy fleet)

Baltic states are a great place to consolidate. Any force that was sent to Karelia is trapped because needs to go back to Leningrad first to retreat. If the SU goes all out to defend Leningrad, then can attack it on G4 if odds are favorable. If odds are not favorable, Italy can open up Belarus on I3 and all German Mech Forces can roll to Smolensk, threatening just about everything.

Not mentioning that need to wait to G3 for mechanized forces in France to come back to Baltic States anyway!

So you can tell my italian plans involve moving the 2 tanks to Slovakia on their first turn.

The UK navy, at least in my experience, isn’t a huge threat.  The relevant portions of it are mostly gone or at least depleted G1, and I haven’t seen the UK do much in terms of building a navy in the West that early.

You need to take care of it on G1 though, correct?

And you can’t kill it all on G1 anyway. You could go in Russia in G2 (especially if Russia does something stupid!), but if Russia plays well, I don’t see the benefit of going with Germany on G2 when you can go with Italy on I2, as I suggested.

[Clyde85]

I know that you need to knock out the UK navy on G1 but I think its been discussed in depth here, and in about 100 other threads at this point, so lets move on is all im saying.
Assuming that the attacks on the UK navy all go reasonably well, what does Germany do next if its NOT going in for a sealion and is looking for Barbarossa?

The Baltic states have been mentioned as a jumping point, and it is an obvious territory to attack, but what else? I think that one of the 3 key territories on the eastern front is E. Poland. It allows the Germans to blitz its forces to the north and south of the pripet marshes and keep the Soviets guessing as to where they will strike next, as well as allowing German mobile forces to respond to any possible Soviet counter attacks or other threats.

The other 2 key territories, to me anyway, are Novgorod and Bryansk. Novgorod is the obvious one with the Soviet IC and other facilities. Bryansk fills the same role as I described for E. Poland, it allows the Soviets to move and attack places north and south of pripet and is a logical place to concentrate any mobile forces the Soviets have. I would do this early on with Soviet armour and mechs, and use them to counter attack one of the German breeches on the border early on. I know the next turn the Germans will counter attack and crush that force but anything that sets the Germans back for a turn and buys the Soviets more time is a good thing.

[Omega1759]

@Clyde85:

I know that you need to knock out the UK navy on G1 but I think its been discussed in depth here, and in about 100 other threads at this point, so lets move on is all im saying.
Assuming that the attacks on the UK navy all go reasonably well, what does Germany do next if its NOT going in for a sealion and is looking for Barbarossa?

The Baltic states have been mentioned as a jumping point, and it is an obvious territory to attack, but what else? I think that one of the 3 key territories on the eastern front is E. Poland. It allows the Germans to blitz its forces to the north and south of the pripet marshes and keep the Soviets guessing as to where they will strike next, as well as allowing German mobile forces to respond to any possible Soviet counter attacks or other threats.

The other 2 key territories, to me anyway, are Novgorod and Bryansk. Novgorod is the obvious one with the Soviet IC and other facilities. Bryansk fills the same role as I described for E. Poland, it allows the Soviets to move and attack places north and south of pripet and is a logical place to concentrate any mobile forces the Soviets have. I would do this early on with Soviet armour and mechs, and use them to counter attack one of the German breeches on the border early on. I know the next turn the Germans will counter attack and crush that force but anything that sets the Germans back for a turn and buys the Soviets more time is a good thing.

You can assume that your Airforce will be busy on G2 with the Royal Navy (including in med). There is Greece and Southern France to take care of on G2 (or less depending how well Italy did). By attacking G2 you lose the 5th IPC and I don’t think you can safely take the ground in the baltic states (you can pick up the territory for trading back and forth). I think opening that territory with Italy is the best play, reinforcing with Germany on G3 (declaring war if opportunities are present). If SU leaves a lot of infantry in Baltic to prevent Italy from cracking the door at I2, then I would just attack G2 to maximize soviet losses (obviously). It all depends but in most cases there is no need to attack until G3 or G4. You need the reinforcements to come East anyway.

[Clyde85]

Leningrad has always been one of the biggest keys to the Eastern front, even all the way back to the orignal! If Germany wanted to win they had to find some way of breaking that horde of infanrty there that got bigger every turn cause it was the only place the Soviet player would place his pieces.

In A&A Europe (the first one  :-D ) Leningrad was THE key in winning on the eastern front. I can remember battles being fought all across Soviet territory, while a huge stack sat in the new Leningrad city zone. The whole game seem to boil down to the fight for that city, and whoever came out the victor would take the game.

Now much the same is true as Novgorod is a major key in to winning on the eastfront, but it dosnt spell the same doom with its capture by the axis that it used to. Granted, losing it is still very detrimental to the Soviets, but if a players didnt invest too heavily in its defense, or moved the bulk of his forces out when the fall of the territory seemed imminent, then there is a good chance that the Soviets will endure. I’ve heard abandoning Novgorod as a possible stratgey for the Russians from the get go, focusing on the defense of Moscow and the much more valuable southern front areas.

[Omega1759]

@Clyde85:

Leningrad has always been one of the biggest keys to the Eastern front, even all the way back to the orignal! If Germany wanted to win they had to find some way of breaking that horde of infanrty there that got bigger every turn cause it was the only place the Soviet player would place his pieces.

In A&A Europe (the first one  :-D ) Leningrad was THE key in winning on the eastern front. I can remember battles being fought all across Soviet territory, while a huge stack sat in the new Leningrad city zone. The whole game seem to boil down to the fight for that city, and whoever came out the victor would take the game.

Now much the same is true as Novgorod is a major key in to winning on the eastfront, but it dosnt spell the same doom with its capture by the axis that it used to. Granted, losing it is still very detrimental to the Soviets, but if a players didnt invest too heavily in its defense, or moved the bulk of his forces out when the fall of the territory seemed imminent, then there is a good chance that the Soviets will endure. I’ve heard abandoning Novgorod as a possible stratgey for the Russians from the get go, focusing on the defense of Moscow and the much more valuable southern front areas.

What do you think of my idea to lure in Russians into invading scandinavia?

Say you don’t attack G2, there is a good chance the russians will move some units in Karelia if Norway is not reinforced.

Those units that are in Karelia can come back to Leningrad, does not look to be a big deal. However, if Italians take baltic states and if German reinforce it, means that the counter on Baltic States would not be strong enough to disuade Germany to walk in (planes can help)

Once Germany is comfortable in Baltic, the Russian will need to consolidate in Leningrad or lose it (backing the troops in Karelia). If SU concentrates the forces there and if the Italians open up Belarus, then any army in Smolensk would be exposed to the fury of German mechanized units and planes. If the mechanized force is sufficient, Moscow could be taken and the troops from Leningrad would be a turn behind. Depends what there is on the board, but interesting idea!

[Clyde85]

Omega, it is indeed an intresting idea!
I have always felt that the Northern front (scandinavia) is an important one to secure as the allies. I had a game where the 4th turn came and the Germans hadnt attacked me (the Soviets) yet. I had fallen back from the borders and the German player was trying to lure me into moving more units to the border or tempt me to attack him in eastern Europe. Instead, I had about 4 infantry in Karelia and 2 tanks and 2 fighter in Novgorod, and I attacked Finland when my turn came. Then the British moved their remaining fleet, which was a cruiser, 2 destroyers and a fully stocked aircraft carrier from sz109 to sz125 with 2 loaded transports and took Norway. The German player wasnt in position to take it back swiftly, and it really hamppered him in the long run.

If the allies can control this front it allows the Soviets to focus on the German armies approaching them from Poland, Hungary and Romania. This means that the Soviets could launch a counter attack earlier if the threat to Novgorod from the north is eliminated. It will also deny the Germans something like 10IPCs, which will also help the Soviets.

[Omega1759]

@Clyde85:

Omega, it is indeed an intresting idea!
I have always felt that the Northern front (scandinavia) is an important one to secure as the allies. I had a game where the 4th turn came and the Germans hadnt attacked me (the Soviets) yet. I had fallen back from the borders and the German player was trying to lure me into moving more units to the border or tempt me to attack him in eastern Europe. Instead, I had about 4 infantry in Karelia and 2 tanks and 2 fighter in Novgorod, and I attacked Finland when my turn came. Then the British moved their remaining fleet, which was a cruiser, 2 destroyers and a fully stocked aircraft carrier from sz109 to sz125 with 2 loaded transports and took Norway. The German player wasnt in position to take it back swiftly, and it really hamppered him in the long run.

If the allies can control this front it allows the Soviets to focus on the German armies approaching them from Poland, Hungary and Romania. This means that the Soviets could launch a counter attack earlier if the threat to Novgorod from the north is eliminated. It will also deny the Germans something like 10IPCs, which will also help the Soviets.

I guess this makes transports important…

On other hand, 7 infantry + 1 transport can be 7 mechanized infantry instead! 7 mechanized infantry grouped with tanks bring a lot of versatility / agility on the front (if the Italians don’t have a presence, the mechanized units are useless, but otherwise it brings interesting options)

[Clyde85]

I guess I play from a very different stand point then most people I guess. I can see the advantage of attacking places like Greece and Yugoslavia, I always prefer the Italians to take the Balkans. Gives them a bit more of an economy that they can “walk to” rather then having to spend their limited IPCs on trying to control Africa. So I could see Italy doing alot of can opening for Germany on the eastern front, in my games. I also tend to have the Germans take southern France on G1, this allowing them to have an IC to produce units directly into the Med to support. Another thing I’ve seen done with Germany that I have to say is very effective, is having the Germans attack Yugoslavia on G1, but only doing 1 round of combat and retreating to Romania. This weakend the Yugo forces, and makes it easier for the Italians to take it on I1, but it also allows Germany to move the 6 infantry in southern Germany right to the eastern front to use on G2.

[Omega1759]

@Clyde85:

I guess I play from a very different stand point then most people I guess. I can see the advantage of attacking places like Greece and Yugoslavia, I always prefer the Italians to take the Balkans. Gives them a bit more of an economy that they can “walk to” rather then having to spend their limited IPCs on trying to control Africa. So I could see Italy doing alot of can opening for Germany on the eastern front, in my games. I also tend to have the Germans take southern France on G1, this allowing them to have an IC to produce units directly into the Med to support. Another thing I’ve seen done with Germany that I have to say is very effective, is having the Germans attack Yugoslavia on G1, but only doing 1 round of combat and retreating to Romania. This weakend the Yugo forces, and makes it easier for the Italians to take it on I1, but it also allows Germany to move the 6 infantry in southern Germany right to the eastern front to use on G2.

By attacking Yougo / Greece though, the tanks need to contribute or the progress in Africa is being slowed down. I see moving the 2 italian tanks in position to take Baltic states at I2 very important strategically.