G1 input



  • Hi all,

    Like most topics here I am sure this has been discussed a few times, but with new members I like to have new input.

    For Germany is it better to go over or under?  Personally I think going for the Caucasus (4 IPC’s) would be smarter then going for Karelia (2 IPC’s) and Archangel (2 IPC’s).

    As we all know stacks win games so tacticly it seems smarter troops in one space vs. two.  Caucasus have an IC so troops are deployed closer to Moscow putting additional pressure on Russia.

    Archangel and Karelia are possible sites to hold a stand off for an allied foothold in Norway pushing back any support Russia may recive from her allies.

    Just wondering what you think.

    LT



  • Personally, I like to go north.  When I play the allies, I almost always try to land in Norway/Karelia/Archangel from Britian; therefore as the axis, this is on the forefront of my mind.  Also I feel like it’s very difficult to take and hold the Caucusus long enough to build anything there b/c Russia is next door.  For me at least, Caucasus just gets traded back and forth.  However, for me, Karelia is fairly easy to take and hold, where you can then build up a number of troops and tanks and then move into Archangel.  But that’s just my 2 cents!  Thanks!



  • @captainjack:

    Personally, I like to go north.  When I play the allies, I almost always try to land in Norway/Karelia/Archangel from Britian; therefore as the axis, this is on the forefront of my mind.  Also I feel like it’s very difficult to take and hold the Caucusus long enough to build anything there b/c Russia is next door.  For me at least, Caucasus just gets traded back and forth.  However, for me, Karelia is fairly easy to take and hold, where you can then build up a number of troops and tanks and then move into Archangel.  But that’s just my 2 cents!  Thanks!

    I disagree. karelia potentially receives much more pressure from allies than the southern route. You can be battling all three allies there, reducing your stack to ineffectiveness. I like staging in karelia in the early rounds to slow down uk in some games. But to stage there for the long haul, just too difficult. It also requires your entire tank stack to hold, which removes all of your armor out of range from Western Europe there is no way to hold both Karelia and Western europe for very long. If the allies can hold WE, germany is near the end.

    However, if the axis can take Caucus and Hold, pressure mounts on Moscow. The japanese should be in position to help the germans hold Caucus. I dont usually trade caucus, unless it is poorly defended. When i invade, i plan to hold it. The extra income and IC is huge, making Caucus pivotal in the struggle on the eastern front.



  • @AxisOfEvil:

    @captainjack:

    Personally, I like to go north.  When I play the allies, I almost always try to land in Norway/Karelia/Archangel from Britian; therefore as the axis, this is on the forefront of my mind.  Also I feel like it’s very difficult to take and hold the Caucusus long enough to build anything there b/c Russia is next door.  For me at least, Caucasus just gets traded back and forth.  However, for me, Karelia is fairly easy to take and hold, where you can then build up a number of troops and tanks and then move into Archangel.  But that’s just my 2 cents!  Thanks!

    I disagree. karelia potentially receives much more pressure from allies than the southern route. You can be battling all three allies there, reducing your stack to ineffectiveness. I like staging in karelia in the early rounds to slow down uk in some games. But to stage there for the long haul, just too difficult. It also requires your entire tank stack to hold, which removes all of your armor out of range from Western Europe there is no way to hold both Karelia and Western europe for very long. If the allies can hold WE, germany is near the end.

    However, if the axis can take Caucus and Hold, pressure mounts on Moscow. The japanese should be in position to help the germans hold Caucus. I dont usually trade caucus, unless it is poorly defended. When i invade, i plan to hold it. The extra income and IC is huge, making Caucus pivotal in the struggle on the eastern front.

    Axis, thread title is “G1 input” and in it seems to me that in G1 also you go for Karelia.
    Generally, also I prefer to go for Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine, regrouping panzers and infantries in EE. When I go for Caucasus I try to take and hold it in order to buy units there.
    However if in R1 Russia had bad dice and is possible to take Caucasus and start to trade it conveniently it could be a viable solution.
    Personally I think that advancing in Russia without the Japanese support is premature and can be done only if Russia is weak and Allies are not supporting her closely.



  • :roll:
    On G1, it has to be Karilia and the Ukraine.
    If the Ukraine was not attacked, or survived the R1 turn, and it is possible to throw enough units to have a shot at taking the Caucuses, then I would seriously consider doing it.
    First of all, If the Caucuses are lost to the Russians on G1 then even when they get it back on R2, and the should, it will not be a place for them to build units in for that turn.
    Secondly, every turn that the Russians spend retaking their original territories back, is a turn further away from German held territories. Whgich means more income for germany. Sure the losses will be high, but I’m building mostly infantry anyway, and most likely more than the russians and UK combined.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I agree, Karelia is far superior tactically.  It requires Russia to take two full turns to attack it with Infantry instead of one in Caucasus, and it cuts off Allied reinforcements instead of giving them 40 years to build a stack then move into Europe which seems to be the want of Allied players.  Lastly, it secures Norway too!



  • It sounds that every one can agree that you should only take the Caucasus if you can hold it.  I find it interesting that there are avid players who take both sides.  Just goes to show that this game is both a science and an art form to play.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Sometimes going for Caucasus is Germany’s only option.

    I was assuming that I had a magical game where I got the choice to go either route I wanted too. (happens, but not very often.)



  • @Crazy:

    :roll:
    On G1, it has to be Karilia and the Ukraine.
    If the Ukraine was not attacked, or survived the R1 turn, and it is possible to throw enough units to have a shot at taking the Caucuses, then I would seriously consider doing it.
    First of all, If the Caucuses are lost to the Russians on G1 then even when they get it back on R2, and the should, it will not be a place for them to build units in for that turn.  I thought that when you regain control of an IC that you owned at the beginning of the game you could produce immediately??? Secondly, every turn that the Russians spend retaking their original territories back, is a turn further away from German held territories. Whgich means more income for germany. Sure the losses will be high, but I’m building mostly infantry anyway, and most likely more than the russians and UK combined.



  • @LT04:

    It sounds that every one can agree that you should only take the Caucasus if you can hold it.  I find it interesting that there are avid players who take both sides.  Just goes to show that this game is both a science and an art form to play.

    As either Axis player, I’ll generally take Caucasus whenever I can get it, as long as I’m not sacrificing too much to do so. If it’s a pretty equal trade (German or Japanese stack for Russian stack), then go go go!

    Having the Russians stage there is huge. As someone pointed out, taking it for even one round means Russia won’t be producing there for at least one – and usually means the German line moves forward, meaning trading Cau/WRus/Arc instead of Kar/Belo/Ukr, which is equally huge. I’ve found that once Caucasus falls, it isn’t quickly retaken. Or if it is, Russia has to throw a lot at it, meaning troops that would instead go to WRus/Nov (some Russian choke point) are stuck in Cau for a turn.

    As for the north/south question, I agree that Kar/Arc is good for breaking up early Allied buildups and Cau is good for the late push. I can’t see how anyone can stay in Kar much beyond G3 or so. Even if you do a 3inf bid into Belo/Ukr/WRus, Germany is hardpressed to hold Kar for very long. Similarly, it’s so much easier to take Russia if the Axis take Cau first. That’s 4inf going to the front line each turn. Blitz over some tanks and it’s lights out soon after.



  • @captainjack:

    @Crazy:

    :roll:
    On G1, it has to be Karilia and the Ukraine.
    If the Ukraine was not attacked, or survived the R1 turn, and it is possible to throw enough units to have a shot at taking the Caucuses, then I would seriously consider doing it.
    First of all, If the Caucuses are lost to the Russians on G1 then even when they get it back on R2, and the should, it will not be a place for them to build units in for that turn.  I thought that when you regain control of an IC that you owned at the beginning of the game you could produce immediately??? Secondly, every turn that the Russians spend retaking their original territories back, is a turn further away from German held territories. Whgich means more income for germany. Sure the losses will be high, but I’m building mostly infantry anyway, and most likely more than the russians and UK combined.

    Nope.  You must hold an IC at the beginning of your turn in order to build units there so you can not recapture an IC and build there in the same turn.  However, if an ally recaptures it for you, then you can build there because it’s yours at the start of your turn.



  • 😄
    TTE makes a very good point about the liberation of ICs’ by an ally, one that should not be overlooked.  😉



  • caucuses. Japan can’t hit karelia with you (in any normal game anyway  😄 )


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Petrucci08:

    caucuses. Japan can’t hit karelia with you (in any normal game anyway  😄 )

    Yea, but Japan can hit Caucasus while Germany’s stacking Archangelsk forcing Russia into a split defense system.



  • karelia is good in the early game because it stops the allies from getting a foothold in europe. later when the atlantic shipping is worked out UK and USA can just drop 8-10 suicide units each into your karelia stack and there is nothing for Rus to do but clean up the rest with the arm they’ve been saving up.



  • A G1 Karelia stack is a nice open.  I have had pretty good success in games where I started that way as the Axis.



  • @ncscswitch:

    A G1 Karelia stack is a nice open.  I have had pretty good success in games where I started that way as the Axis.

    A good reason that a Russia 1 buy of 3 tanks, 3 inf can be a good one.



  • Lucky for Germany Russia goes first so they can have a good idea where Russia wants to go before their first move.



  • @TimTheEnchanter:

    @captainjack:

    @Crazy:

    :roll:
    On G1, it has to be Karilia and the Ukraine.
    If the Ukraine was not attacked, or survived the R1 turn, and it is possible to throw enough units to have a shot at taking the Caucuses, then I would seriously consider doing it.
    First of all, If the Caucuses are lost to the Russians on G1 then even when they get it back on R2, and the should, it will not be a place for them to build units in for that turn.   I thought that when you regain control of an IC that you owned at the beginning of the game you could produce immediately??? Secondly, every turn that the Russians spend retaking their original territories back, is a turn further away from German held territories. Whgich means more income for germany. Sure the losses will be high, but I’m building mostly infantry anyway, and most likely more than the russians and UK combined.

    Nope.  You must hold an IC at the beginning of your turn in order to build units there so you can not recapture an IC and build there in the same turn.  However, if an ally recaptures it for you, then you can build there because it’s yours at the start of your turn.

    Whoa! Maybe Brian did win…



  • @Romulus:

    Axis, thread title is “G1 input” and in it seems to me that in G1 also you go for Karelia.
    Generally, also I prefer to go for Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine, regrouping panzers and infantries in EE. When I go for Caucasus I try to take and hold it in order to buy units there.
    However if in R1 Russia had bad dice and is possible to take Caucasus and start to trade it conveniently it could be a viable solution.
    Personally I think that advancing in Russia without the Japanese support is premature and can be done only if Russia is weak and Allies are not supporting her closely.

    Yes Romulus. Thank you for reminding me what the title of the thread was. My problem was that i got caught up in responding to the content of his post. It seemed to me he was referring to a long term route to moscow question. I mean, you can’t even hit Caucus G1 can you? Regardless of the thread title, the OP wanted to know if you should put pressure on moscow thru ARCH or CAUCUS. We might even being saying the same thing, where I like holding Karelia early as a defensive move. But wehn i want to put pressure on Moscow, i take Caucus usually.



  • @hyogoetophile:

    As either Axis player, I’ll generally take Caucasus whenever I can get it, as long as I’m not sacrificing too much to do so. If it’s a pretty equal trade (German or Japanese stack for Russian stack), then go go go!

    Yes. This must be a given. If you can get caucus without losing much heavy equipment, do it. It is what I meant by I dont trade caucus, unless it is poorly defended.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    But you CAN hit Caucasus on Germany 1.  Just not “usually” hehe.



  • Caucuses can indeed be hit G1, and sometimes with REALLY GOOD odds for a German win.

    TRN plus TRN Bid in SZ14 get 4 units, plus a BB shot, plus the Ukraine forces, plus FIGs and BOM, plus EE and BAL ARM…  The odds get pretty sweet pretty fast for Germany.

    The problem is the MULTIPLE counters that Germany will face:  UK, USA and USSR…
    And the fact that Germany has almost no land forces left in Central Europe after that initial grab.

    Advantage Russia in most cases from a G1 Caucuses grab

    (the exception is when you can walk in almost free… especially if you get to SBR it for free before taking it, as in when some folks virtually abandon Caucuses on R1 and pull their AA out…)



  • @AxisOfEvil:

    @Romulus:

    Axis, thread title is “G1 input” and in it seems to me that in G1 also you go for Karelia.
    Generally, also I prefer to go for Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine, regrouping panzers and infantries in EE. When I go for Caucasus I try to take and hold it in order to buy units there.
    However if in R1 Russia had bad dice and is possible to take Caucasus and start to trade it conveniently it could be a viable solution.
    Personally I think that advancing in Russia without the Japanese support is premature and can be done only if Russia is weak and Allies are not supporting her closely.

    Yes Romulus. Thank you for reminding me what the title of the thread was. My problem was that i got caught up in responding to the content of his post. It seemed to me he was referring to a long term route to moscow question. I mean, you can’t even hit Caucus G1 can you? Regardless of the thread title, the OP wanted to know if you should put pressure on moscow thru ARCH or CAUCUS. We might even being saying the same thing, where I like holding Karelia early as a defensive move. But wehn i want to put pressure on Moscow, i take Caucus usually.

    Axis, I agree with your strategic approach.

    In fact hitting Caucasus in G1 can be done only in two ways. Preparing this move, as Switch said, adding a bid TRN to the Med Fleet or exploiting the situations in wich Russian player abandon Caucasus.
    The first option, however, I dislike because, as Switch noted, leave German opened to many counters, and do not allows for gains in Africa.
    If Russia leave Caucasus it is possible for Germany to trade it every turn starting from G1, that may be very good for German income.
    So taking Caucasus in G1 may be done only in particular cases and it is not always advantageous to do.

    Going on in the game also I, like you, prefer to increase pressure on Russia taking and holding Caucasus in order to build units there.



  • If you can get it for a 1 INF walk in, TAKE IT!  If you can SBR it for free DO SO.

    Other than that, you better think long and hard about a G1 strike on Caucuses…


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