Why isn't Italy in this game instead of Japan?



  • Why isn’t italy in this game when italy was more of a world power than japan?



  • Although I’m in fan of adding Italy to the game … I believe that Japan should definitely be in the game BEFORE Italy.



  • uhm, I think most people would agree that Japan was more powerful that Italy. Let’s face it, Italy more or less lost everything it attempted.



  • Really, you have to be Italian to believe they contributed much more than a potent navy (merely to blockade the Mediterranian - kind of), and an army that hung out in Ethiopia for a bit (poor Haile Silasse), and a penchant for retreating before American/British/Canadian troops. Japan was a conquering nation. They had resources, brilliant tacticians, and they were a nation of warriors. Their problem was their arrogance pure and simple. If not for that, then WWII might well play out like the A&A board game - a sea of yellow over Asia with little interaction between the Americans and Nipponese in the Pacific. They would identify when they lost control of their codes, and when they were losing battles. Sadly it appears this hubris is directly related to ferocity.



  • Lets see here i’m like 75% Italian, and i’ll still be honest with you Italy sucked! they relied on germany for everything!



  • I’ll probably get more attacks for this one than not but…

    Italy was a significant force in World War II for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was a sizable navy that contributed to harassing the British in the Mediterranean and keeping ships out of the Atlantic war enabling German U-Boats to operate with greater freedom. The major problem with the Italian war effort was two-fold: first, Italy was not prepared logistically to enter war in 1939. Second, the Italians lacked the military strength by that time to effectively wage an aggressive war against the British and her commanders (who were quite effective all things considered) were faced with the task of trying to go on the offensive with very few tanks and virtually no air support.

    The Italians fought very well in most areas despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air. But the Italian army had very few offensive weapons at their disposal and Mussolini felt he had to bring the Empire back, but also consider that Hitler promised Mussolini that he wasn’t going to go to war until at least 1944 or so, so Italy thought they had enough time to get the economy kicked into Wartime gear.

    To make this short, the Italians did fight very bravely often against logistical odds (they did have an advantage in manpower but this was offset by the disadvantage in airpower, offensive firepower such as tanks and artillery, and logistics such as supply lines and overall supplies) and put up a good showing when fighting on Italian soil.

    But Japan was a real deal offensive juggarnaut and more than deserved to be on the map; I think Italy, although capable of maintaining their own war programme early, by the start of A&A had become sort of an auxiliary in Europe to the German army and thus are best represented as pretending that the BB in CMed zone is their naval contribution and that the IC in SEu is the ability of Italy to produce some sort of a military contribution to the mainland defense.


  • 2007 AAR League

    It would be interesting to see Italy in the game and I’m 50 percent behind the idea. I even made a house rule and a setup for the Italians if anyone ever wanted to see it. However, Japan, in my opinion, should definitely be in the game before Italy.



  • I couldnt imagine the A&A if italy was in the game instead of japan. Italy really didnt help much in WW2 other than cannon fodder, Japan had power and potential, they just bit off more than they could chew.

    I havent tried the original A&A with Italy but i probaly wont because they money they would get for their territorys would be put to much better use to germany, and for realism purposes, italy would have to have some disadvanges such as infantry defend at 1, tanks attack at 2, all warships -1 D, etc.



  • @UKcommander:

    It would be interesting to see Italy in the game and I’m 50 percent behind the idea. I even made a house rule and a setup for the Italians if anyone ever wanted to see it. However, Japan, in my opinion, should definitely be in the game before Italy.

    I agree 100% with UKcommander … I too have house rules for adding Italy, but Japan must be in the game BEFORE Italy.

    It’s nice to have a 3 vs. 3 game of A&A.



  • Yes, Italy helped in the Med, but other than that it was not particularly pretty. If they did help the German U-boats it was a wasted effort, because Hitler thought the navy was a waste of time and that the airforce was the way to take out the allies.

    kyrial said
    The major problem with the Italian war effort was two-fold: first, Italy was not prepared logistically to enter war in 1939. Second, the Italians lacked the military strength by that time to effectively wage an aggressive war against the British and her commanders (who were quite effective all things considered) were faced with the task of trying to go on the offensive with very few tanks and virtually no air support.

    You are absolutely right. Italy was not a strong player in WW2 because they lacked the economy and infrastructure to wage war. However, that is part of being a powerful nation. Kind of like the Russo - Japanses War in 1905. The Russians had vast superiority in a number of ways but they were not ready for war and Japan was, so Russia lost. The US was not ready at the beginning of WW2 either, but 18 months after pearl harbor they were invading Sicily. Why? Because their economy and manufacturing base was huge and just needed to get moving. If Italy had the economic strength of Japan the allies would have been in for a long hard war. If the US tried to invade Okinawa 18 months after Pearl Harbor it would have been a joke. They wouldn’t have been able to get within 1,000 miles of Okinawa before the Japanese destroyed the invading force.



  • without japan, the game would be lopsided. speaking from a strictly gaming point of view. without Japan, all the allied forces could be concentrated in one general area surrounding europe. giving the allies an unfathomable advantage by being able to instantly support each other, while still attacking on multiple fronts. “fortress europe” would be strangled to death by the contstricting allies



  • yea, playin w/o japan is a bad idea. as is playing w/o america.

    take out japan, and us has no threat at all. no need for a pacific fleet, and can concentrate solely on europe and if they choose, africa.

    take out US and it’s the opposite. japan has no enemy, and no reason for a pacific fleet. thus they can send thier pacific fleet and empty their island posessions to the indian ocean for india or africa, and push for russia.

    i’d like to see some of the setup’s for and italian included game



  • despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?



  • I thought that was the French?

    Heh, I know the French take a beating as well as the Italians 🙂

    What’s really funny is that during the last… three weeks I believe it was… of the German invasion in 1940, the French actually inflicted more casualties on the Germans than they suffered themselves which led to all sorts of accusations against the Petain govt that they were all too willing to surrender and that they should have instead tried to fight it out. I don’t say that to start a long drawn out argument about the French army effectiveness in WWII, but really after the initial shock of the invasion where the Germans basically split the allies in half, the French fought rather well but not well enough to offset the enourmous losses of the first weeks of fighting.

    When Mussolini tried to cash in by invading in the south (always a good idea, mountain fighting when the enemy holds all the high points… :roll: ) and the casualties were something like Italy: 4000 - France: 15 in two weeks of fighting. And those are thought to be real #'s, not something made up afterwards :oops:



  • @Grigoriy:

    despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?

    oh that’s not even funny anymore.
    “Napoleon built the arc de triumphe, and the only armies to march triumphantly through it were the Germans and the Americans”.



  • Hey, I was being serious. 😛



  • I was thinking the same thing as GI. 😛



  • UKcommander and MistaBiggs could you both please post your house rules for adding Italy. Thanks



  • the last area to fall in france was actually the border with Germany. the Maginot line ahd not been extended through a thick coastal forest on the belife that the forest would be enough. also, it hadnt been extended south to cover the border with italy. the German army basically squeezed single file through the woods after the maginot line kicked the snot out of them. even when the germans came at it from the rear later on, it was still an impressive defense.



  • Yes, the Maginot line was impressive, unfortunately, it failed. Also, the forest might have been enough, had there not been “roads” going through it that allowed the panzers through. And the Germans did not really take any casualties from the Maginot line until after France was basically conquered anyway, by which time it was largely irrelevant.



  • @Anonymous:

    UKcommander and MistaBiggs could you both please post your house rules for adding Italy. Thanks

    Here’s my Italy Rules – keep in mind that this altered Map/Game will start a little earlier (to allow Italy more territories) and it won’t be completely “historically” accurate. Also, I have yet to test it out … so, the unit placement for the countries may need a little tweaking. But, this should be a good starter kit.

    ITALY RULES:

    Order of turn:
    • Germany
    • USSR
    • Italy
    • UK
    • Japan
    • USA

    Italian territories:
    • S. Europe – raise IPC value to 10 (Use Gibraltar Blow-Up Box for S. Europe)
    • Libya – raise IPC value to 2
    • Italian E. Africa – raise IPC value to 2
    • Syria-Iraq’s – raise IPC value to 2 (On April 3, 1941, a Pro-Axis regime was set up in Iraq)
    • Add Sicily – IPC value of 1 (Use West Indies Blow-Up Box for Sicily)
    • Split Eastern Europe into two (Northeastern Europe – Germany, Southeastern Europe – Italian)
    o Southeastern Europe – IPC value of 3

    German territories:
    • Change IPC value of Algeria to 2
    • Split Eastern Europe into two (Northeastern Europe – Germany, Southeastern Europe – Italian)
    o Northeastern Europe – IPC value of 5

    Russian territories:
    • Split Caucasus into two (Northern Caucasus and Southern Caucasus – split below Stalingrad from Southeastern tip of Ukraine S.S.R. to Southwestern tip of Moscow … thus, no amphibious assaults on Northern Caucasus and most go threw Northern Caucasus to get to Moscow)
    o Southern Caucasus – IPC value of 1
    o Northern Caucasus – IPC value of 2
    • Split Karelia S.S.R. into two (Eastern Karelia S.S.R. and Western Karelia S.S.R.)
    o East Karelia S.S.R. – IPC value of 3
    o West Karelia S.S.R. – IPC value of 2

    Italian units:
    • S. Europe – 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, IC, and A/A
    • Southeastern Europe – 2 infantry, 1 tank
    • Libya – 2 infantry, 1 fighter (to acknowledge that Italy had almost 600 planes in Africa)
    • Italian E. Africa – 2 infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Syria-Iraq – 1 infantry
    • Sicily – 1 infantry and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Red SZ – 1 transport
    • E. Med. SZ – 1 transport and 1 submarine
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 transport, 1 battleship (1937 - Italian battleships “Littorio” and “Vittorio Veneto” are launched)

    German units:
    • Algeria – 1 tank and 1 infantry
    • Black SZ – 1 sub
    • W. Spain SZ – 1 sub and 1 transport
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 battleship

    UK units:
    • UK – 3 infantry, 1 tank, 2 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • Congo – 1 infantry
    • Persia – 1 infantry
    • Anglo-Egypt Sudan – 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 A/A
    • Union of S. Africa – 2 infantry
    • Angola SZ – 1 submarine
    • Move sub from E. Med. SZ to W. Med. SZ

    Russian units:
    • Novosibirsk – 1 infantry, 1 tank
    • North Caucasus – 4 infantry, 1 fighter
    • South Caucasus – 1 infantry
    • East Karelia S.S.R. – 1 fighter, 1 tank, 7 infantry, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • West Karelia S.S.R. – 3 infantry, 1 tank
    • Soviet Far East – 2 infantry
    • Soviet Far East SZ – 1 submarine
    • Moscow – 4 infantry, 2 tanks, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • Evenki Nat’l Okrug – 2 infantry, 1 A/A

    Japan units:
    • Japan SZ – 2 transports, 1 battleship
    • Kwangtung – 2 infantry, 1 tank
    • Manchuria – 3 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 A/A

    IPC per Country:
    • Germany – 28
    • USSR – 26
    • Italy – 20
    • UK – 28
    • Japan – 25
    • USA – 36

    Additional Rules:
    • Italian tanks – Cost 4 IPC, Attack at 3, but Defend at 1 (the most common version had a pitiful 6-20 mm of armor)
    • Germany can build 1 unit per turn from the IC in S. Europe
    • Italian transports have the Kamikaze ability (signifying the Italian torpedo boats). The transport performing the attack may use up all of its movement to reach the target and gets one round of combat and attacks on a three or less. The Kamikaze transport is then destroyed and removed from play. If a hit occurs, the target chosen by the Italian player must be destroyed and removed from play. Or in the case of a Battleship, one hit of damage must be inflicted immediately.

    I also have an edited MapView ready for play … e-mail me if you’re interested in obtaining a copy of it.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Sure I’d be interesting in seeing it. Yours is a lot better than mine, but I’ll post it in a bit.



  • Send me an e-mail, so I’ll have your e-mail address to reply to (with the attached MapView file and I can also include the Rules in Microsoft Word format).



  • @MistaBiggs:

    …and it won’t be completely “historically” accurate. Also, I have yet to test it out …

    First of all: good work, MB.
    But, i have nitpicking in my blood, so i hope you don’t mind if i comment a few things, mainly on historicalness.

    ITALY RULES:

    Italian territories:
    • Syria-Iraq’s – raise IPC value to 2 (On April 3, 1941, a Pro-Axis regime was set up in Iraq)

    Well, that is true, but by the 1st of June that had already fallen. So, you might consider either letting it be British again (as one half of Syria/Iraq never was in control by the Axis) or putting some Brits there to retake it as quick as it happened.

    Italian units:…
    • Italian E. Africa – 2 infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Syria-Iraq – 1 infantry

    The forces in East Africa then need quite a lot of British units around them, and even if there was an airbase … there were a lot of airbases everywhere :)…
    i think the number of units in E.A. is too high, considering that they had trouble to be supplied once the war action started.
    For syria/iraq … well, the regime hold for less than two month, do you really think that is worth an inf?

    German units:
    • Black SZ – 1 sub
    • W. Spain SZ – 1 sub and 1 transport
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 battleship

    German fleet in the Med ? …… No way!

    UK units:
    • Congo – 1 infantry
    • Persia – 1 infantry
    • Anglo-Egypt Sudan – 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 A/A
    • Union of S. Africa – 2 infantry

    Not enough. There surely was an air base somewhere in Egypt 😉 (just to make sure why i think Italy has too many fighters).

    Additional Rules:…

    Hmmm…… adding a new class of tanks makes the game IMHO unnecessarily more complicated.
    For building on another IC… skip that.
    The germans could never build navy there, and all others can move there.
    You might like to add something like a “lend-lease” for Italy though, that Germany can give up to …say 8 IPCs … per turn to Italy and Italy can use that money as it sees fit.
    For the Torpedo boats…
    well, the Italians had crap subs, so if you want a new class of unit, i would make it that:
    Italian Torpedoboat: (uses Sub counter), cost 6 IPCs, Move 2, Attack 3 (one time only, pick hit), Defense 1



  • Mistabiggs that’s a really cool, thought out way to add Italy into the game in a way that I don’t think horribly upsets the Allies chance to still win. Heh, I have seen (and advised myself at times) the whole changing the tanks defense… my suggestion was to change German tanks so that they defend much better since historically the Germans (and Soviets later on) had very solid tanks. Since if the Russians are buying tanks, something has gone horribly wrong for the Axis, the team that really benefits from this is Germany because it allows them to chance having a territory defended by several tanks and not have to worry about an attack taking out the majority of their offensive weaponry.

    For Syria-Iraq maybe just leave the territory Italian but not occupied to suggest the influence and natural hostility to the British?

    Quite a good sampling of Italian WWII history tho, not too many actually care so it’s nice to see some who have read up on it. Too bad for the Italian armed forces Mussolini wasn’t as good a commander as he was a bully…


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