Best way to sneak up on UK

[DarthMaximus]

Was the 1-2 strafe discounted?

I think that is a great move.  You can’t assume bad play by the US player.
Rd 1 they’ll drop an AC with 2 ftrs into the Atlantic.  They’ll have 5 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 dd 2 trns to play with.

Likewise UK can buy either 3 ftrs or 2 ftrs + something else.

With a 3 ftr buy the UK doe not necessarily have to commit their trns and BB to the battle.  You can simply go airforce, it will cost you 65 IPC but you kill 3-4 units (probably subs).  It is a bad trade for UK but US mops up not having to worry about sub strikes.

Ultimately you trade 113 worth of units for the 100 IPC for Ger and UK still has its BB and US has 3-4 plnes left with AC and BB/trn on the way.

However, I think the better option is the 2-3 ftr UK 1 buy and smash Germany for 1 rd (possibly 2).  If Ger keeps the subs retreat out of there and keep you bb alive (don’t risk the first strike - let the US airforce pummel the subs for no risk), if they kill the subs go a second round.

US can still clean up with it choice of 5 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 dd, 2 trns.

With the strafe option you end up trading about 70-90 worth of Allied units for 100 of German. (5 trns, 3 subs, 1 dd, 1 bb)

This neither sets the Allies back or forces them to buy anything other then trns and troops from rd 2 on.  US still has an AC and BB and UK should still have its BB.

I don’t necessarily think it is a good gamble to “hope” your opponent makes a mistake so you can capitalize.

Let them unify, then crush them with the good ole 1-2.

[cyan]

@DarthMaximus:

Was the 1-2 strafe discounted?
Let them unify, then crush them with the good ole 1-2.

yeah i talked about in here. the uk has to buy a bb and only battles for 1 round(the us is doing most of the work)

@cyan:

UK1: buys 1bb (sounds crazy but wait)
US1: buys 2 bmb move figs t e. canada and the uk.
UK2: attacks for 1 round. takes out on averge 2 trns(while they lose 1)
US2: atacks with2 Fig, 4 Bom, 2 Tra, 1 Des. v. Defender: 3 Tra, 3 Sub, 1 Des, 1 Bat

@cyan:

now i ran it with 3 bmbs instead of 4 and got a 70% success rate. if germany saves the subs to subemge then it is a 85% that a germany unit will live(3 subs being the most likely at 42%) the median result for the us is 2 bmbs survive(15 % ) if germany decides to use it’s subs. if it decides to save them(killing the bb if necessary) it has a 25% chance of 3 bmb living. the good thing about this option is  that the UK can still attack noraway (if left emptied) and the US will be able to build a trn and inf or artillery. even though this allows more flexible there a good chance if germany rebuilds there going to be another naval battle(UK/US 3 or 4). the only thing this guarantees is that germany won’t be able to attack the UK on GER 3. Ger will loss 76 ipcs(16 on UK turn and 60 on the us turn) while there will be a loss of 8(UK) + 48(us)= 56 ipcs. the allies keep the UK navy and deal 20 ipcs of damage to Germany with the option of taking Norway or Algeria on R2.  also the us may be able to sbr germany latter. Germany meanwhile gains delaying the Atlantic threat and optimizes its navy. germany may even be able to start a new navy with the 3 subs present.

[DarthMaximus]

UK should buy either 2 ftrs + troops (ship??)
or 3 ftrs

US should follow up with AC and 2 ftrs.

[Guest]

Hey Darth.

Oh, I think you’re right on many points.  I agree with you that the attack in Z07 is better than blockading Z06 or Z12. Â

I’m not quite sure what you meant by “You can’t assume bad play by the US player.”  I don’t THINK, I am, but I may have missed something.  I think you’re referring to the options I laid out for the US attack on R2 because you plan on buying car/2ftr.  That is stronger for the Z07 attack, but again, by purchasing 3tra (or 1car) with the Germans, you are causing the Allies to buy 5ftr (roughly) plus capital ships.

That’s just great for Germany.  Germans want to see anything other than transports and ground units.

The statement that drives this debate for me is, “I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in Z07.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.”

My whole point is that the counters aren’t easy, and that Germany likes forcing the Allies to use those counters.

The only thing I dislike about the Allied rotating attack is that you have to buy a lot of gear that is not destined to take land.  But it may be the best you can do.

Peace

[cyan]

@DarthMaximus:

UK should buy either 2 ftrs + troops (ship??)
or 3 ftrs

US should follow up with AC and 2 ftrs.

how is the ac going ot help the us? sz 7 is 3 spaces away?

[Guest]

Hey Cyan.

That’s a good puzzle for you.  Darth is right.  What is his plan?

Hint: Look in the rules about where you build units.  Page 22.

[DarthMaximus]

@CrazyStraw:

Hey Darth.

Oh, I think you’re right on many points.  I agree with you that the attack in Z07 is better than blockading Z06 or Z12. Â

I’m not quite sure what you meant by “You can’t assume bad play by the US player.”  I don’t THINK, I am, but I may have missed something.  I think you’re referring to the options I laid out for the US attack on R2 because you plan on buying car/2ftr.  That is stronger for the Z07 attack, but again, by purchasing 3tra (or 1car) with the Germans, you are causing the Allies to buy 5ftr (roughly) plus capital ships.

That’s just great for Germany.  Germans want to see anything other than transports and ground units.

The statement that drives this debate for me is, “I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in Z07.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.”

My whole point is that the counters aren’t easy, and that Germany likes forcing the Allies to use those counters.

The only thing I dislike about the Allied rotating attack is that you have to buy a lot of gear that is not destined to take land.  But it may be the best you can do.

Peace

I gotcha.  My guess would be, you could go a long way to preventing it by just landing 2 Russian ftrs in Mos on Rus 1.  In which case it becomes questionable for the Germans to even attempt.  So in a sense you might be able to prevent it without it even being started.  Just a guess there.

Personally, I LOVE air as the Allies, and regardless of G1, I look to beef up both Allied airforces.  I don’t like the UK 1 attack on the Baltic with only 2 ftrs, 1 bom.  I think that is a bad move, which is usually why I forgo buying ships for G1 to encourage the attack.

I like Allied air b/c stationed in Wrus/Cauc/Mos you can prevent many potential moves including a J landing in Afr.

If possible I like to get an early 2nd bom with both UK and US but realistically that may not be possible so I really like 2 UK ftrs and then another 1-2 with US in rd 1, with additional ftrs in the subsequent rds.

My comment about “not assuming bad play” was just more of a general comment, you have to assume the Allies are going to coordinate well and you darn well better make sure the Allies don’t have something up their sleeve if you do go through with the unification.  It may not have meshed well with the specific scenerio you were dealing with.

I think you see where I’m coming from though, if US buys AC/air and can take out the G fleet (basically a wash in units), is it then worth it for the Germans to do so or is there a way to get even more out of their fleet.

It obviously must work in some cases and be worth it otherwise no one would use it, but I have a problem with investing 24 IPC (in 3 trns) on G1, in the hopes that the Allies don’t have a counter.  And I like air as the Allies so I don’t see it as a set back if the have to buy extra planes in rd 1.
I’ve thought about trying to go more navy on G1, but never pull the trigger b/c I figure my opponent is going to see what I’m up to and prevent it, in which case I put waaaay to much pressure on Japan to then try and bail me out.

[Guest]

@DarthMaximus:

I think you see where I’m coming from though, if US buys AC/air and can take out the G fleet (basically a wash in units), is it then worth it for the Germans to do so or is there a way to get even more out of their fleet.

Heh.  That IS the question.

The problem I have is that if the Germans don’t buy boats, what do the Allies do?

R1 UK buys 3tra.  Most players pop Baltic as Switch and I mentioned before.
R1 US buys maybe 2inf 2tnk 1car 1tra for Africa or 6inf 1tra 1car for EuroShuck.

R2 Both Allies go to Africa (or Norway)
All Europe from there on

So from R1 the Allies max production and can land troops in Africa early.  The Germans won’t be able to take out Allied transports cheaply at any time.

Heck, if you build no Baltic boats and you don’t take Gibraltar, in many instances I might go to Algeria R1.

So it’s not that the united fleet is unbeatable; it’s that the Allies are ON Germany very quickly if you don’t build some navy.

By spending 24 on boats:
1. Allies spend a lot more than that in the water
2. UK doesn’t build transports until R3 (R1 naval offense, R2 naval defense, R3 tra - this is simplified, of course)
3. You leverage the IPCs you already have in the water
4. You set up cascade failure points if the battles go favorably
5. You hold German revenue longer

Cons:
1. You’re down 8inf vs. Russia.

But the con is offset by the delay against UK/US.  Units that would have been in Western can move East instead, so it’s largely a wash on the land.

Peace

[nooob]

if germany is gonna spent 24ipc’s on 3trs on r1 why not make it 32 and go for acarrier and 2trns?

proceed with the fleet merger threat and then hold the allies off even longer…

the senarios described basically force a kgf anways…if kjf is tried the tnrs will help expediate the movement of r2 purchases through karielia and the transports can STILL be filled on g2 with the units in WE and left over cash.

[ezto]

okok, Best way to sneak up on the UK is to get your tanks to Moscow.

[Guest]

@ezto:

okok, Best way to sneak up on the UK is to get your tanks to Moscow.

Sweeeeet!

The “sneak” attack is done by systematically killing their friends first, right in front of their eyes.  Ballsy.  I like it!

noob: Good question.  The problem with buying more navy, however, is that while you may slow down UK/US a little more, the Russians will charge in.  The goal is to have a lean, efficient naval counter, because if you don’t the East will fall fast.

Maybe 32 is too much.  Maybe 16 is too little.  I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 8-24, and it may depend on what Russia does on their turn.  Where are the fighters?  Did he move toward India?  Did he buy offense or defense?  Did he stand in BUR?  Etc.

Peace

[DarthMaximus]

I go Egy heavy (with intent to hold), meaning 2 units bid to Lib with 2 more tranported there + ftr and bom in attack on G1

G2 - Trj is taken and Afr is blitzed

G3 - Germany possibly take India (with Japan to defend) or go to Mad then head to Aus/NZ and Hi

The Allies still need to protect ships in SZ 8 and 5 (or 6) and once you get to rd 3-5 Japan should be able to get 5-6 planes to Europe.

Now the Allies need to worry about a 1-2 with 10-14 planes on one of their fleets.

Plus once the Allies get to Egy (with the rd 1 landing), Japan can always threaten a landing.  Certainly by rd 4 Japan can seriously threaten to back up Afr while they push troops on toward Mos.  You don’t need to necessarily land in Afr, just threaten the landing with ships in Fic sz.

This is a lot of what-ifs and stuff but I build up for a run in say rds 4-8 with both Ger and Japan trying to take either Ukr and Kaz at the same time forcing Russia out of Cauc.  Although I’d perfer to take Wrus and Kaz.

I don’t think the Allies can crack Europe in the first 4-5 rds if Germany goes ground heavy.  You can even deadzone WE or EE if you must and try and guide the Allies to where you wan them to land.

Provided you did well in Afr on rds 1-3,4.

I’ve found myself having trouble when I go AC for Germany or other ships.  I always get to the point of “man, I wish I had just a few more inf/arm…”

[Guest]

Darth, quite interesting.

1. What did you do with the UK in IND?  It seems like your Germans should get harassed a bit more than that…

2. Mid game, say R4+, Allies ought to have 2btl in their forward fleet.  The rear fleet bounces between Z01 and Z02, out of range of fighters.  The forward fleet has about 2btl 2des 1car 2ftr and some serious fodder.  I don’t think you ought to be able to rotate air forces on them to do major damage.

For instance, if you have 6ftr 1bmr from Germany, R4+ the Allied forward fleet would have something like:
7tra 1sub (Rus) 2des 1car 2btl (WUS) 2ftr : dPunch = 32 dHits = 5.

That’s brutal.  Brutal.  Go 1rnd: If you get 4hits with the Germans, that’s 1tra 1sub 2btw (wounded btl).  The Germans then lose 5ftr.  If you pull back, the btl recharge.  Once planes start dying, the Allies can take des as casualties.  Japan won’t get more than a couple of transports and the destroyers.  And the air threat is gone.

We must set this up rather differently.  Do some more 'splainin.

(I’ll be AFK for a while)

[DarthMaximus]

The combined airforce is more of a paper tiger, just to insure the Allies aren’t getting sloopy or venture too far into the Med.

If the Allies want to stay heavy in Sz 6 or something, yeah can’t do much, but if they move they have to make sure they coordinate well or Japan could take a shot at the UK fleet when it moves (provided #of trns etc.)  sometimes the threat is enough to keep the ships north.

As Japan I go China heavy (7 inf + planes) and Pearl Heavy.
So UK does me a favor when the walk 1 inf into Fic on UK 2 and another if they keep an inf in Trj after UK 1.  Both are toast.  That leaves like 2 left, maybe 3??

Japan strafe with 1-2 inf and ftrs or rely on the Ger BB, 1 inf, 1 arm 1 bom to take out the 2 inf.

More than likely though the Brits will retreat to Per prior to Round 3 making Ind a walk-in for Ger.

And if Japan takes Ind that is okay too, then Germany goes Mad, Aus, NZ, then Hi.  Again Japan can soften Aus up with 1 inf and 2 bb-shots if UK left 3 inf.  Which equals 5 IPC that are not likely to be retaken any time soon and require no defense.

[newpaintbrush]

You remember that earlier post I made, where I mentioned consolidating the Allied fleet out of range of the German navy and/or airforce while threatening the seazone off Western Europe?  Oh yeah, maybe not, because I didn’t say that in so many words.

Basically -

1.  Allied navy stays away from German navy initially, forces Germany to attack with navy.  If Germany does not oblige, the Allies either go north to the Baltic and set up Norway/Karelia/E. Eur, OR the Allies go south to the Med.  A single German fleet CAN NOT cover both if the Allies have a good-sized air force.  (If the German navy DOES stay in range of both Baltic and Med, the Allies can attack the German navy with Allied fleet and Allied air, which ends well for the Allies)

2.  If Germany STILL avoids a confrontation, the Allies build up air.  Fighters help a lot when trading territory with Germany.  They can also be used to help defend Moscow.  They can also be used to kill German naval units.  The Allied attack IS slowed by the German navy, but although the punch comes later, it comes much harder, and with much more Allied flexibility, with those Allied fighters available.

I probably will not try to stop the Germans from uniting their fleet, but I will try to pose a counterthreat (as posted earlier), that can force the Germans either to abandon uniting their fleet, or to risk losing that combined fleet immediately (although at heavy cost to the Allies).

[Jennifer]

I always wanted to try a full naval build for germany round 1.  2 Transports, 2 Destroyers or 3 Transports, AC. (I feel the AC is mostly superfulous because you already have your fighters in the neighborhood, Carriers attack worse then infantry (at least you get lotsa meat shileds together, you gunna mass carriers???) and 2 destroyers make a significant punch on both attack and defense when combined with starting units Germany already has.)

Potential:  4 Transports, 3 Submarines, 3 Destroyers, 1 Battleship.  or 5 Transports, 3 Submarines, 1 Destroyer, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters (no longer defending mainland), 1 Battleship.

Pull back on the front lines, let Russia extend in, then push back now that Russia is all by herself.

[Guest]

I have debated the MASS KREIGSMARINE myself, but with a slightly different configuration…

Building in the Med…
1 AC, 2 TRN (balance land forces)

Sail the Baltic Fleet to SZ7 on G1 (UK either attacks or not, and hopefully does damage along the way)
And do the BB strike w/ just SUB and FIGs in SZ13
Shuttle troops to Libya on G1.

Germany has a nice force load in Africa for G2, and a VERY strong fleet in SZ14 (1 BB, 1 AC, 3 TRN, 2 FIG) if the Allies try to land in Algeria on T1.

Kinda discourages that Algeria T1 landing thing, makes Africa almost sure to be German, give Russia something scary to consider for defense of Caucuses, and of course one hell of a fleet to go sailing into either the Indian or Atlantic oceans at will…

[ezto]

Kriegsmarine is there to kill enemy fightrs when its getting attacked.

[Jennifer]

If the Baltic fleet moves to SZ 7 how do you expect to do any real damage?

2 Transport, 1 Battleship, 1 Bomber, 2 FIghters vs 2 Submarines, 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer.

Attack: 14
Defender: 8

You might damage the Battleship and maybe take out a transport (though I’d be liable to take the bomber so I have that extra 1 transport for fodder against the german luftwaffe who will not have to counter 1 battleship, 1 aircraft carrier, 1 russian submarine, 1 destroyer, 2 transports and 2 fighters)

[Deaths Head 420]

the best way to do OP. sea lion is to get your allied friends high then tell them you want 32 IPC to place on board b4 game starts. JK