How to make battleships a more attractive purchase

[arwaker]

We recently tested the following, and we were quite confident with it:

Battleship: 17 IPC (no changes to rules)
Cruiser: 9 IPC (Attack decreased to 2)

Battleships now are a real strong weapon, as far as you can afford them. Especially if you already have the superior navy, the hit absorption is useful, as you hopefully don’t lose any units in battles vs smaller navies. A really strong buy for USA and/or Japan.

Cruisers get a completely new job. They are the cheapest way to get a strong defense. Especially useful for defending small groups of transports against enemy air raids. They totally outvalue aircraft carriers in this role, but their ability to support a subsequent land battle is very limited (bombard at only 2. No fighters can participate in defending the land units later on). Therefore Cruisers shine at attacking islands, but carriers are still better for large invasions.

[baron Münchhausen]

Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
Attack 2
Defend 3
Move 2
Shore bombard  2
Cost 9

It is a completely new idea.
I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

IMO, I think that a balanced cost compared to BB should be 10 IPCs instead.
Because for 18 IPCs, you would get a 2xD3 on defense compared to a single Defense @4 for Battleship.
The 1 IPC higher is not enough.
With 20 IPCs, it means a 3 IPCs difference for 2 Cruisers.

Did you try the reverse?
Attack 3
Defend 2

[arwaker]

@Baron:

Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
Attack 2
Defend 3
Move 2
Shore bombard  2
Cost 9

It is a completely new idea.
I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

Exactly

Edit:
However, one should keep in mind that the Allies do profit a bit more from these changes as the Axis. Therefore the bid should maybe adapted to that.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
Attack 2
Defend 3
Move 2
Shore bombard  2
Cost 9

It is a completely new idea.
I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

IMO, I think that a balanced cost compared to BB should be 10 IPCs instead.
Because for 18 IPCs, you would get a 2xD3 on defense compared to a single Defense @4 for Battleship.
The 1 IPC higher is not enough.
With 20 IPCs, it means a 3 IPCs difference for 2 Cruisers.

Did you try the reverse?
Attack 3
Defend 2

The issue is that it makes another Sea unit better on defense than attack.
Same as Carrier and planes.

I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.

[arwaker]

@Baron:

I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.

As it is already with carriers? ^^

[baron Münchhausen]

@arwaker:

@Baron:

I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.

As it is already with carriers? ^^

Yes.
1 Carrier Att 1 Def 2 + 2 Fgs A3 D4=
Attack 7 Defense 10

If Cruiser A2 D3 is added into the mix, 2 units (A4 D6) for example:
Attack 11 Defense 16, 5 units.
The same 5 units on offense vs defense are overwhelmed.

A&A Calc:
Overall %*: A. survives: 15% D. survives: 82.8% No one survives: 2.3%

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=2&aCru=&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=2&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

---

If, instead, Cruiser A3 D2 is added into the mix, 2 units (A6 D4) for example:
Attack 13 Defense 14, 5 units.

The same 5 units on offense vs defense are still beaten up, but get almost twice the odds of survival (15% vs 28%):
A. survives: 28.2% D. survives: 68.9% No one survives: 3%

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=2&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=2&dCru=&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

[baron Münchhausen]

The only way I see to keep the defense against planes manifesto is to provide
the 1 AA roll per cruiser.

Cruiser
Attack 3
Defend 2
Move 2
Shore bombard  3
Special 1 defensive AA first shot @1 against up to 1 plane/per cruiser unit.
Cost 10

---

In such situation as above,
if Cruiser A3 D2 is added into the mix, 2 units (A6 D4) for example:
Attack 13 Defense 14, 5 units.

A. survives: 22.1% D. survives: 75.6% No one survives: 2.3%

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&AA=on&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=2&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=2&dCru=&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

That way, Cruiser is clearly not better than Destroyer against incoming Submarines.
But you still get a better Anti-Aircrafts platform while keeping his single offensive roll of Shore bombardment.

This can be balance with a 17-18 IPCs 2 hits Battleship.