• '14

    @ItIsILeClerc:

    Sending just 1 Russian mech into Africa also seems to be worth a LOT (doing it in my current game).
    The 1 mech is not a miss in Moskou (RAF has 9 Spitfires and 1 Mosquito there as well), and it just took Ethiopia (RU6), Somaliland will follow next turn, so that 1 mech gives 7IPCs/turn already. Now if the UK can only stay its hand on Tobruk/Libya…

    <– My point exactly!

    Also:
    Egypt is easily held in the first couple of rounds unless the dices roll heavily against you. Or am I missing something? It is after all GB before Italy so just retreat all your troops from alex to egypt (or leave one inf if you need that blocker in order to hold egypt from Italy’s first wave) but I guess it depends on how you open up with the brits. As I stated earlier Im going for sz 97 & 96 and Persia. I also like to build a tranny in SAF.

    With this strategy you have 5inf, arty, mech, arm in Egypt after UK1 and as much as 9inf, arty, mech, arm, 2fir, tb and sb after UK2 if needed (this when you count 2inf from persia, 2inf from SAF and planes from Malta). So even if Italy stack alex in round 1 (with the help of German planes placed hopeless out of position). How on earth would you have them take Egypt in Ita2?

    So I definetlly don’t think a “‘Taranto’ is too much for the UK”. Quite the contrary! Sinking that sz97 fleet leaves the italian fleet in crumbles making it way more manageable for the brits even without heavy investments…

    These circumstances can off courses be altered if Germany enters the mediterranean scene but then again every IPC spend on boats in med doesnt count towards the big eastern push

    cheers


  • @Rasmustb:

    So I definetlly don’t think a “‘Taranto’ is too much for the UK”. Quite the contrary! Sinking that sz97 fleet leaves the italian fleet in crumbles making it way more manageable for the brits even without heavy investments…

    You are absolutely right, sir!
    I think we can agree on the UK being foolish if they ‘Taranto’ when Germany prepares for Sea Lion?

    My point of ‘Taranto’ UK1 possibly being a bridge too far, comes if Germany has made no visible preparations for SL (!beware of the German who buys nothing at all GE1), but is known for launching a surprise SL.

    The UK can do ‘Taranto’ then but only if it is willing to stack London with Infantry in UK1. Still many dicerolls involved and London will most likely fall, but at what cost. With 33 units in London GE3, Germany can still crush the brits or gain a pyrrhic victory (and anything in between). Except of course if the UK is played by an extremely gifted dice roller who studied on and made it his/her strategy to roll 1’s and 2’s ;-).

    Always be wary of a surprise German attack on London, even if they display an all-barabarossa build.
    Once you feel safe enough, attack Italy. This can be UK1 or UK2 and depends on -for example- the level of your opponents (can you expect a surprise SL-attack from them?), what the UK has built and what the Germans are doing.

  • Customizer

    This may have been covered before, but I don’t like Taranto for the UK. I think it leaves the UK too weak in the Med. Yes, you might kill the Italian BB, CA and transport and all 3 Axis fighters, but you will most likely lose all British fleet in the Med and a good part of your RAF.
    Okay, say on G1, Germany sends subs to hit the UK Cruiser in SZ 91. Now that is gone. Assume that Germany sends a fighter to Southern Italy as well.
    On UK 1, England sends the fighters from Gibraltar and Malta to take care of the Italian DD/Transport in SZ 96. UK sends the destroyer, cruiser, carrier and tac from SZ 98 to SZ 97. UK also sends 2 fighters and 1 bombers from England to SZ 97 (which if even 1 of those fighters survive either strands the carrier in SZ 97 or of you take a hit on the carrier, you still lose the surviving fighter).
    Now, in SZ 97, you have 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser, 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 1 tac and 1 bombers against 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 3 fighters.
    In hit terms, you have 1 @ 2, 3 @ 3 and 2 @4 against 1 @ 3 and 4 @ 4.
    While the UK does have the edge on number of units, the Axis has a much better edge in defensive firepower.
    England HAS to get 6 hits. Granted, the Axis has to get 8 hits to totally wipe out the British, but barring unusual dice they are in a much better position to get those 8 hits than the British are to get the 6 hits they need.
    It’s been my experience on average that the UK is successful but only has the bomber surviving. If the Italian destroyer in SZ 96 gets a lucky hit and kills one of the UK fighters, here is what you are left with in the Med: 0 ships, 1 fighter and 1 bomber for England, against 1 transport, 1 submarine, 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser and 1 bomber for Italy.
    Of course, there are still the French CA/DD in SZ 93 which could cause the Italians some problems – that is unless the Germans already took them out on G1 which I have seen happen on come occasions.
    So while the Italian fleet is definitely reduced, they still have more than the British.
    I think it is much better to wait until UK 2. The Italians will move their fleet out trying to expand. Then England can hit that battleship WITHOUT the extra fighter support and lose a lot less in the process.


  • What do you like to do with the UK KNP?

  • '14 Customizer

    If your waiting for UK2 to attack the navy then you have one of these two problems:

    1. Germany gets another shot at it before your turn.

    2. If you went through the suez then all Italy has to do is take Trans-Jordan to close the canal.

  • Customizer

    No, I don’t go through the Suez. I will usually put the Cruiser from SZ 98 in SZ 96 (if the Italian DD gets a lucky shot, then I have to lose a fighter) as a blocker and the Destroyer from SZ 98 to SZ 99 as a blocker and leave the carrier in SZ 98 with the planes. I also use the transport to move an infantry and artillery from Egypt to Tobruk, along with the UK Mech and everything from Alexandria and wipe out the main Italian force in northern Africa.
    Almost every time the Italian navy will spread out to try to hit all the Allied Navy they can (French CA/DD SZ 93, UK CA SZ 96, UK DD SZ 99) while using their transports and troops in Albania to take Greece. That varies from time to time. Sometimes they will use one transport to go after Malta or Gibraltar.
    On UK 2, I will have plenty of RAF left in the Med, plus the DD from SZ 71, to finish off most of the Italian fleet. What few Italians are left throughout Africa can be mopped up in the next round or two with just a couple of tank/mech purchases in South Africa.
    As for the Luftwaffe, I don’t really worry about them as UK in the Med. If Germany wants to pull off a Sealion OR a Barbarossa, they need their Luftwaffe up by Germany, no fooling around down in the Med. If Germany is wasting planes down in the Med, then they aren’t as strong up north for Sealion or Barbarossa. Yeah, it will definitely weaken UK in the Med, but will also give both the UK and Russia more time to prepare for any impending invasions. In fact, if the Luftwaffe is in the Med for the first round or two, I would venture to say Sealion is out of the question. Barbarossa can still happen but it might still upset the German time table and provide Russia with a stronger defense. That could mean everything by the time Germany does get to Moscow.
    As for my buys for the UK, I really like to get an IC in Egypt. Much better than clear down in South Africa. However, UK 1 I usually get a pretty standard buy of 1 fighter, 6 infantry just to be safe against Germany. After that, it depends on Germany’s buys. If it looks like a possible Sealion (naval buys), then of course it’s all defense for London. If Germany doesn’t increase it’s transport force more than 2 or 3, then I will probably get more planes, some tanks in South Africa and start considering that Egypt IC (depending on how strong the Italians still are of course).


  • Bid art in Alex, tank in Egypt and kill Tobruk on UK1!  If you don’t do this the Axis can stack Alex with Italians+ German air and deny your bonus for many turns.  I hit the DD and Tranny off Malta with the standard cruiser +gib fighter and then I tuck my fleet to the backside of the canal (SZ 81 I think).  Here my carrier allows a tac and a fighter from India to land on it.  I leave the Italian BB alive in SZ 97 because it will not be able to stand up to the UK fleet I shove into SZ 98 on UK.  On UK I will link up with a cruier/dd from india, air base Egypt and put my entire fleet back into the med.  fighters from UK will land in Algeria where 3 French fighters will give them a safe landing spot and it’s check mate for the Italians.  Only way to save the italian fleet is a German air base in Yugoslavia, which is 5 infantry Russia will never have to deal with and will only delay the inevitable.  It put India in a tough position early, but that is already the case and those units will contribute greatly to putting Italy into it’s box by turn 3 or 4 at the latest.


  • I always destroy the Italian main navy force in round 1.


  • I have to give Pherman some credit for the tobruk bid play.  He didnt invent it or anything, but he’s been using it so massively effectively in games recently, its almost demoralizing the shutdown effect it has on the axis in africa.  Im pretty solidly a believer in it now.

    Sure, Italy feels strong with its boats, and it gonna get paid for a turn or two, but it just isnt going to accomplish anything significant other than its own doomed presence for a few rounds.  It will take greece, maybe go get gib once before USA arrives, and thats it.

    There is so much UK pressure on itfrom boats and the huge RAF on its way to moscow, that unless G is willing to invest in a yugo airbase, the Italians will be dead by UK4, or earlier, no matter what choices they make.

  • '14 Customizer

    You can accomplish the same thing without the bid though.  The bid frees the transport so you can take Persia but as knp7765 posted you can do it without the bid.  I honestly believe the bid system tips the favor greatly in the Allies favor.  Maybe I have not played enough games yet , hehe


  • It could be Cyan, however the bid take the chance away from the matter, and yes freeing up that tranny is huge, opens up Iraq on R3, which is monster, as it also means ethiopia on R5 and Somali on R6, which is just sooo much money, replacing the ipcs Germany is taking away in Russia proper, and it also effectively counters anything Italy might try to do in lower Africa.

    We found for a long time that nobody could beat our best axis play, Japan in particular has gotten really sharp, Pac wins have been quite common lately…I feel our Allied game is starting to catch up but it is so hard to find the right balance between Moscow defense needs, British Europe play, and USA asset allocation to stop Japan from getting out of control in the Pac, while supporting UK with the right amount of bodies to bleed Germany effectively.

  • '14 Customizer

    I understand and agree with you. I just think that you can get by without a bid.  Its easy to build a complex in Egypt and protect it without attacking Tobruk and use that transport to take Persia on UK1.

  • Customizer

    Another reason I don’t care for bids. I still say the standard setup is fine and provides roughly equal chances for either side to win. From what Demandr3d describes, just bidding that 1 artillery to Alexandria opens up a lot more options for UK and seems to give Italy almost no chance. It also seems to give Russia a lot more chances to gain money from taking Italian properties in Africa.
    Of course, that kind of opens up another can of worms for me. Russia getting extra money by reaching down into Africa and gobbling up easy Italian properties, two of which aren’t even worth any IPCs. So Russia gets an extra 12 IPCs per round for four nearly useless territories in an area that Russian forces never really occupied in the actual war. Yeah, I know this game isn’t TOTALLY historical, but this just seems stupid to me – not so much that Russia would actually go down and capture those territories, but that they get so much money for them.
    This is why we modified the Russian NO with our own house rule.
    +3 IPCs for each original Axis territory, Pro-Axis Neutral territory, Pro-Allied Neutral territory first occupied by Axis forces and Strict Neutral territory first occupied by Axis forces within Continental Europe and Scandanavia. (Turkey is included in this grouping).
    This means NO African territories and NO islands. In other words, no Russian infantry hopping on a British transport to grab Sicily or Sardinia for an extra 3 IPCs each.
    However, we have also added the following NOs for Russia:
    +3 IPCs for Soviet control of Korea.
    +2 IPCs for each Victory City that the Soviet Union controls.
    With these NOs, even if Germany comes on hard against Russia, it is still possible for them to collect a little NO money to help their cause.

  • '14 Customizer

    Well said knp. I agree 100%


  • @knp7765:

    This is why we modified the Russian NO with our own house rule……

    I know this is out of place, but the Russian NO is very much part of an over all Med strat….(one that shouldn’t exist IMO).

    Yea, the 3 IPC bonus the Russians get for Italian African territories, and Med islands is ridiculous (it has been a major gripe sense it was introduced). This theater was never a realistic or historic goal for the Russians, and it is exploited way to much as ppl get more familiar with it. This NO was changed partially to boost the Russians if there is a Sea Lion (kinda like a penalty), but now it is being manipulated even w/o Sea Lion.

    IMO Finland, The Balkans, The Mid East, and Eastern Europe (Orig German territories) are a realistic goal. I’l even buy Original Italian possession in Europe like Albania, parts of N Italy and maybe even Rome could also be added to the list (but the Americans beat them to it for the most part).

    What we are experimenting with (not an original house rule by any means) is that Russia gets a bonus for any Orig German, Orig Italian, Pro Axis Neutral , and Pro Allied Neutral territory that Russia is in control of equal to that territories IPC value (could also include True Neutrals activated by the Axis, or liberated by Russia from the Axis). This makes the Italian Med islands worthless, and Libya/Ethiopia hardly worth going after. It will tone down some territory bonuses for the Russians (like Bulgaria), but allows them some new territories to target as well that were more in tune with their goals IMO.

    Obviously Finland was a major goal, but so was the Balkans (Bulgaria, Yugo, Romania, maybe Albania, and Greece) especially once they beat back the Germans (like in a Sea Lion attempt, or a failed assault on Moscow). In The Mid East it still allows the Russians to gain NO bonus for control of Iraq (reduced), and now Persia for added income once at war (could be as late as R4 before they could be in either because they have to pause in NW Persia). The NO bonus for Iraq, and Persia could also simulate the lend lease coming up through the Persian Gulf. I know that Persia being Russian isn’t very historical as it was British controlled (Russia did invade what is NW Persia though). My thinking here is that if the UK doesn’t take Persia early (leaving it for Russia), then the Allies are out some English Pounds and a couple of inf needed early on. If Germany does a G3 Barbarossa, then by time Russia gets to Persia it would be Rus4 (6 or more IPCs lost to England if they activated it UK1). It would be a viable target however for the Russians to Liberate Persia from the Axis after going for the Oil Bonus, to get a bonus of their own).

    In the event of a Sea Lion (or failed assault on Moscow), the Russians would still get good bonuses for the orig German, orig Italian, Pro Axis Neutral, and now some Pro allied Neutral territories in the Balkans & Mid East (average of 2-3 IPCs each). If they crack into Northern Italy, or Greater German territories then their NO bonuses rise even more.


  • @WILD:

    @knp7765:

    This is why we modified the Russian NO with our own house rule……

    I know this is out of place, but the Russian NO is very much part of an over all Med strat….(one that shouldn’t exist IMO).

    Yea, the 3 IPC bonus the Russians get for Italian African territories, and Med islands is ridiculous (it has been a major gripe sense it was introduced). This theater was never a realistic or historic goal for the Russians, and it is exploited way to much as ppl get more familiar with it. This NO was changed partially to boost the Russians if there is a Sea Lion (kinda like a penalty), but now it is being manipulated even w/o Sea Lion.

    IMO Finland, The Balkans, The Mid East, and Eastern Europe (Orig German territories) are a realistic goal. I’l even buy Original Italian possession in Europe like Albania, parts of N Italy and maybe even Rome could also be added to the list (but the Americans beat them to it for the most part).

    What we are experimenting with (not an original house rule by any means) is that Russia gets a bonus for any Orig German, Orig Italian, Pro Axis Neutral , and Pro Allied Neutral territory that Russia is in control of equal to that territories IPC value (could also include True Neutrals activated by the Axis, or liberated by Russia from the Axis). This makes the Italian Med islands worthless, and Libya/Ethiopia hardly worth going after. It will tone down some territory bonuses for the Russians (like Bulgaria), but allows them some new territories to target as well that were more in tune with their goals IMO.

    Obviously Finland was a major goal, but so was the Balkans (Bulgaria, Yugo, Romania, maybe Albania, and Greece) especially once they beat back the Germans (like in a Sea Lion attempt, or a failed assault on Moscow). In The Mid East it still allows the Russians to gain NO bonus for control of Iraq (reduced), and now Persia for added income once at war (could be as late as R4 before they could be in either because they have to pause in NW Persia). The NO bonus for Iraq, and Persia could also simulate the lend lease coming up through the Persian Gulf. I know that Persia being Russian isn’t very historical as it was British controlled (Russia did invade what is NW Persia though). My thinking here is that if the UK doesn’t take Persia early (leaving it for Russia), then the Allies are out some English Pounds and a couple of inf needed early on. If Germany does a G3 Barbarossa, then by time Russia gets to Persia it would be Rus4 (6 or more IPCs lost to England if they activated it UK1). It would be a viable target however for the Russians to Liberate Persia from the Axis after going for the Oil Bonus, to get a bonus of their own).

    In the event of a Sea Lion (or failed assault on Moscow), the Russians would still get good bonuses for the orig German, orig Italian, Pro Axis Neutral, and now some Pro allied Neutral territories in the Balkans & Mid East (average of 2-3 IPCs each). If they crack into Northern Italy, or Greater German territories then their NO bonuses rise even more.

    The med island thing is no big deal, since 1 axis plane in SITA stops any russian landing.  But, I do like the NO changes you proposed.  It should only affect Original axis in Europe, and all neutrals in Europe/Middle-East. (No islands).

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