That would be less than 5% than probably. They needed to have naval dominance, or a hugely supperior air force. They had neither, and thus sea lion was a pipe dream.
No. Sorry. This is just not true. Before even the Battle of Britain, Hitler had some generals that believe that Sea Lion should be put into effect rather than the air war over Britain. If Hitler had not invaded Russia, and the United States of America had not entered the war (both of which can happen in this game until round 4 (2 entire years)) then the entire European axis would have had all the time in the world to prepare for Sea Lion. They had superior technology. They vastly outnumbered the British. And had they devoted everything they had towards defeating Britain, along with using what they had smarter (taking out radar stations and airfields instead of making the same mistake they would make at Stalingrad by bombing buildings over and over again) it would have most likely happened, and succeeded. Air, not sea, was proven to be dominant in World War Two for the first time. The Luftwaffe could have, given two years time and combined with the significant (although not as much as the British) Kriegsmarine and good planning, protected transports for enough time for the vastly superior Germany army to cross the channel and destroy Britain just like they did France. So, now you know, and you won’t embarrass yourself again with your ridiculous 5% Sea Lion chance comments. Sea Lion was not only possible, it was probable. But Hitler f’d it up when he thought it would be a good idea to make 2 enemies out of one, and then Japan thought it would make even more sense to make 3 enemies out of 2.
You have lost your mind. Just look at the figures for the number of aircraft built in 1940. UK built MORE than Germany built. How in the world can a sealion happen when you cant control the english channel? You might be lucky enough to get one huge push of men onto the soil of UK. Maybe 100,000 men and that is being really REALLY fair. The brits would easily be able to push this back. The US had the best amphibious techknology in the world by the end of the war and even they had a really hard time putting tanks on the the battle right out of the amphibious asault. Just look at D-Day and how many tanks never made it to the beaches. So lets say Germany could get 100,000 men on the land. How does Germany intend to resupply these men? How do these men take out tanks that the British have, but obviously the Germans couldn’t get very many onto British soil. I don’t see how you can sit their with your 7th grade knowledge of History and school someone who has their bachelors in history and is working on getting a Masters in Military history. Sea Lion is a joke to any real military historian. We know it just wasn’t possible baring EXTREME luck by Germany. If at anytime the British thought they might be invaded for real, like they saw Germany’s navy massing for a landing somwhere on British soil, then The british would have retreated their entire navy to outside of the Island of UK and would have done anything possible to keep the Germans out of their land. The British navy, at the time, was HUGE. 16 battleships and scores of destroyers and 6 aircraft carriers…. They also had the advantage of defense on their side. Please explain to me how sea lion was even a possibility in 1940 or even 1941 for that matter. How could they get naval and air dominance. Please don’t think I believe that all they needed was air dominance, because if it came down to it UK would have made sure the Germans only got one landing off before their navy came in in HUGE numbers and crushed the second or even first landing force. While the men landing would have a hell of a time on the beaches with the British being on defense. Rememeber over 300,000 men were evacuated from dunkirk, so the British still had defenses in place.
You know Roc, I’ve heard tell a few times - in terms of quotes from the horses mouth, about how great France was, in 1938,39, early 1940. How they had so many MILLION soldiers, How their TANKS were better, and how the Maginot line was impenetrable.
Low and behold, ingenuity, and determination ruled THAT day.
Yes on paper the optics and logistics could be viewed as “Bad” for sealion But there are a few things you’ve left out/falsed stated…
In Europe, the allies did NOT enjoy air superiority… infact they almost lost air superiority during the battle of britain, and would have, had the germans continued to target their airbases as oppossed to begin to target the citizens of London.
Don’t rule out the possibility, this was a legitimate venture, and in a 3 year span, had war not spread across to the other nations of the world… or if chamberlain had stayed in power, or the King intervened… any number of things could have happend.
Granted Garguantua if a lot of things happened then sea lion could have been possible. This is why I gave it a 5% chance. Look up the figures of how many planes were lost on the british side and the German side in the air war over UK in 1940. Also look up how many planes each side was building. The Germans lost over a 100 more planes than UK did, since defending air power with radar beats attacking air in an unfriendly air zone that also has anti air gun fire. In 1940 UK built more aircraft than Germany as well. Granted UK had to split up their air power into three main theatres, Great Britain, Egypt, and the East Indies/India/Singapor/Hong Kong area.
I had a balance thought in mind.
Making UK more powerful in order to counter easily a sealion at the expence of the US power.
Something like UK starts with 10 more infantries in UK but US gets 5IPC less from their continental bonus.
Maybe UK shouldn’t have to split their income but the USA has to?
Seems like an easy fix to save England rd1-rd3 and splitting up US power. Of course it would probably break the game in a million ways that I can’t think of…
Well guys /anything/ is possible. Saying Sealion would have worked given 2-3 years isn’t really practical. Who is to say Stalin would wait 2 years to declare war on Germany? And while Germany is building a landing fleet and bombing UK the British are going to figure it out and be preparing defense. I think Germany’s best chance was in 1940, when UK’s military had just lost a bunch of material at Dunkirk.
You have lost your mind. Just look at the figures for the number of aircraft built in 1940. UK built MORE than Germany built. How in the world can a sealion happen when you cant control the english channel? You might be lucky enough to get one huge push of men onto the soil of UK. Maybe 100,000 men and that is being really REALLY fair. The brits would easily be able to push this back. The US had the best amphibious techknology in the world by the end of the war and even they had a really hard time putting tanks on the the battle right out of the amphibious asault. Just look at D-Day and how many tanks never made it to the beaches. So lets say Germany could get 100,000 men on the land. How does Germany intend to resupply these men? How do these men take out tanks that the British have, but obviously the Germans couldn’t get very many onto British soil. I don’t see how you can sit their with your 7th grade knowledge of History and school someone who has their bachelors in history and is working on getting a Masters in Military history. Sea Lion is a joke to any real military historian. We know it just wasn’t possible baring EXTREME luck by Germany. If at anytime the British thought they might be invaded for real, like they saw Germany’s navy massing for a landing somwhere on British soil, then The british would have retreated their entire navy to outside of the Island of UK and would have done anything possible to keep the Germans out of their land. The British navy, at the time, was HUGE. 16 battleships and scores of destroyers and 6 aircraft carriers…. They also had the advantage of defense on their side. Please explain to me how sea lion was even a possibility in 1940 or even 1941 for that matter. How could they get naval and air dominance. Please don’t think I believe that all they needed was air dominance, because if it came down to it UK would have made sure the Germans only got one landing off before their navy came in in HUGE numbers and crushed the second or even first landing force. While the men landing would have a hell of a time on the beaches with the British being on defense. Rememeber over 300,000 men were evacuated from dunkirk, so the British still had defenses in place.
I agreed with a lot of what Gargantua wrote, and would like to add a few more things. To start, I think you’re looking at this the wrong way: Britain’s point of view. But Britain doesn’t get to set up Germany’s attack. Germany picks how the battle plays out, not Britain. Their are countless examples throughout history of two sides fighting, and one going on the offensive and doing the unexpected to great success, even defeating “superior” forces. How about Hannibal, Washington crossing the Delaware at Trenton, Midway, and yes, the rout of France. Just b/c you can point out 1,000 reasons why the light bulb won’t turn on doesn’t mean that Germany wouldn’t have found a way given enough time. Any “real military historian” wouldn’t be naive enough to have studied all of the great upsets in the history of the world and still have the arrogance to label a feasible operation as having only a 5% chance of success. At least my “7th grade knowledge of history” has taught me that. Add to that the fact that we are not trying to completely accurately represent how the war would have turned out… We are trying to accurately represent how the war might have turned out if the axis was given a slight boost in all arenas.
I am fine with the boost. I am fine with Germany being able to take UK on T4 at a 75% or higher chance with 11 transports, but the poll was asking about a T3 take of UK with UK being able to build all defense and send all defensive units back. This is also why I stated the 5%. I think in the real war it wouldn’t have been till 43 or later before Germany would really be ready for a Sea Lion with a great chance of success. The real problem was UK had 16 battleships! and 5 AC’s and hundreds of destroyers and smaller craft, AS WELL AS the same air power strength. Sorry I shouldn’t talk about actual history in these polls or feelings on global 1940. I feel the same way you do that the axis need a boost to make the game more fun. In all honesty I hope the game becomes after everything is done a 48/52 with allies being 52% favor. This is because the allies are substantially harder to play than the Axis, and I think it should take a really good allied strategy to win. Just my two sense…
In my opinion, Alpha 2 had the Germany - UK - Russia post-Sealion balance perfect.
Everything had a drawback and a counter. But nothing was totally game-changing.
@The:
To start, I think you’re looking at this the wrong way: Britain’s point of view. But Britain doesn’t get to set up Germany’s attack. Germany picks how the battle plays out, not Britain.
Actually I think you need to look at Russia since they are the ones who would decide if Germany would get that time or not. I maintain that Hitler had no chance at sealion without defeating Russia and I have read /a lot/ on the subject.
I also think the ‘small front’ strategy that Germany planned in Sealion would have failed.
In my opinion, Alpha 2 had the Germany - UK - Russia post-Sealion balance perfect.
Everything had a drawback and a counter. But nothing was totally game-changing.
I tend to agree, especially those first 4-5 rounds. For example if UK hit Italy hard they were losing their capital. Main issue I had with A2 was that if I was allies and Japan did not attack me J2, then I declared war on Japan in order to collect my NO money, which seems gamey.
I tend to agree, especially those first 4-5 rounds. For example if UK hit Italy hard they were losing their capital. Main issue I had with A2 was that if I was allies and Japan did not attack me J2, then I declared war on Japan in order to collect my NO money, which seems gamey.
Well, that can happen in Alpha 3 as well.
And if you did that, Japan could sweep in and take all of the DEI with no American threat. I don’t see a problem with that.
If Japan wasn’t in position to do that, then that’s Japan’s fault.
If Japan doesn’t attack on R2, then they should stack up in SZ 36.
Barring poor Japanese positioning, UK should only be able to (safely) attack on UK3.
Point - counterpoint.
Japan is only getting 1 round to ‘sweep’ the DEI, after that US is in the war anyways.
Well yeah.
That’s more than enough to take each island, if Japan has had 2 rounds to prepare.
Or they’ll be sweeping west to smack India hard. Not take it, but definitely reduce their infantry if possible.
A UK2 attack was very possible, and had its benefits, but Japan could definitely counter it. I don’t see why that’s “gamey”.
I am fine with the boost. I am fine with Germany being able to take UK on T4 at a 75% or higher chance with 11 transports, but the poll was asking about a T3 take of UK with UK being able to build all defense and send all defensive units back. This is also why I stated the 5%. I think in the real war it wouldn’t have been till 43 or later before Germany would really be ready for a Sea Lion with a great chance of success. The real problem was UK had 16 battleships! and 5 AC’s and hundreds of destroyers and smaller craft, AS WELL AS the same air power strength. Sorry I shouldn’t talk about actual history in these polls or feelings on global 1940. I feel the same way you do that the axis need a boost to make the game more fun. In all honesty I hope the game becomes after everything is done a 48/52 with allies being 52% favor. This is because the allies are substantially harder to play than the Axis, and I think it should take a really good allied strategy to win. Just my two sense…
You undersell the UK naval strength, they started the war with 15 battleships and 5 KG-V class battleships under construction, also 7 carriers and 5 more building (although they carried swordfish instead of real aircraft, they were good enough to score some significant victories such as Toranto and damaging Bismark), as well as lots of cruisers and destroyers (As many as anyone else in the world). Also they started the war with almost as many submarines as Germany. (65 german vs 53 UK - and the UK gets no subs while Germany gets 5 )
Never was so much owed by so many to so few
He also said that another 2 weeks and they would had nothing to send up to counter the German Air force. Hitler also ordered the operation “SEA LION”
I think you should always go for the sea lion look, and when they think they have the ultimate defense throw a lug wrench in their cog wheel and do a Barbarossa
all this took place before Hitler decided to turn his attack on Russia
