Sub Question

[TimTheEnchanter]

@Amon:

@Cmdr:

(And this works against the axis too, get that British submarine to SZ 60 and stop the Japanese for a round.)

can you please explain this

I suppose it would be something like

• Aussie sub attacks sz45 and survives to UK2
• Aussie sub attacks sz60 on uk2 and survives opening round of combat from trans and any defenders, if present., then submerges

At that point, japan would not be able to unload those transports to any friendly territory on J2. They could, of course land on any hostile territory.

Frankly this rule is one part of the LHTR that i think is very, very broken.  The thought that a single newly launched sub can scare the amassed allied navy from landing in controlled territory along the baltic is comical.  In my mind, the trannies should be allowed to unload in friendly territory even if the boat itself was involved in combat.  It’s not like the units are getting extra movement.  But what do I know.  :shrug:

[Jennifer]

I agree, Tim, but that’s the rule.

So yes, if Japan is unwise and only stations transports in SZ 60, and England attacks with a submarine, lives and decides not to risk another attack instead submerging, all those transports are “locked.”  They cannot load from SZ 60 and they cannot off load into friendly territory.  They can only move in Combat Move, that means moving to another sea zone to load units and yet another to offload and that offload better be an amphibious attack.

Good way to gum up Japan for a round.

[hyogoetophile]

And I believe this has been the rule ever since AAE, when building ships into enemy-controlled sea zones was first allowed.

It does seem a bit odd, but it’s not like the rule is going to be abused: A sub has to somehow not get killed by air, find some transports that aren’t defended by anything and are shucking into friendly territory, and then not get killed by the transports.

[tekkyy]

Whats odd is that units loaded in combat move must be offloaded in the same combat move into enemy territories.

That is what caused the strange situation in the OP.

[Amon-Sul]

@Cmdr:

I agree, Tim, but that’s the rule.

So yes, if Japan is unwise and only stations transports in SZ 60, and England attacks with a submarine, lives and decides not to risk another attack instead submerging, all those transports are “locked.”  They cannot load from SZ 60 and they cannot off load into friendly territory.  They can only move in Combat Move, that means moving to another sea zone to load units and yet another to offload and that offload better be an amphibious attack.

Good way to gum up Japan for a round.

thank you Tim :wink:

the rule may sim odd, but its good in some way, beacuse it leaves you to be more creative in your play, and shows the value of each unit, even the cheapest( in this case the sub-of the sea units)

the same thing is when you attack massive fleet with one sub, so you can declare your ACs will pass through that seazone but you re infact sending figs to kamikaze mission someplace else, as Jen previously mentioned, thank you Jen  :wink:

[Guest]

A true master of all the permutations of naval combat can play havoc with traditional strategies…

[tekkyy]

Yeah imagine all the swearing when a novice player is shown all the loopholes for the first time, all in one game.  :-D

[Mazer Rackham]

Sorry, I should have covered this thread too:

Fricking subs…

[Amon-Sul]

i have a question

for example

UK attacks Japan on sea

with 1 des, 1 bat
Japan defends with 1 sub

UK forces miss on round 1 turn, Japanese sub also

can UK forces retreat, or Japanese player can submerge his sub first=negate the possibilty of UK forces to retreat

thanks

[Krieghund]

In your example, the sub can’t submerge at all, since there is an enemy destroyer present.  However, let’s assume that the attacking force consists of a battleship and a sub.  In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.  In either case, the defending sub may not disallow the attacker’s retreat by submerging.

[Amon-Sul]

@Krieghund:

In your example, the sub can’t submerge at all, since there is an enemy destroyer present.  However, let’s assume that the attacking force consists of a battleship and a sub.  In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.  In either case, the defending sub may not disallow the attacker’s retreat by submerging.

thank you for correcting me

and clearing things out

i get it now :wink:

[axis_roll]

@Krieghund:

In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.

how does THAT work?

Do you each write down your attack/withdraw perogative on paper and show it at the same time… I mean, how ELSE could you do it simultaneously?

[TimTheEnchanter]

It’s not so much that the OOB rules specify that they are similtaneous, it’s just one of the vague rules in the OOB that doesn’t specifically dictate the order so you’re left to wrangle it out with your opponent.  LHTR specifies the order as Attacker, then defending subs.  I just found out a few minutes ago in the Unbaltic thread that CSub’s rules say the sub submerges before the attacker, so it all depends on who you’re playing.

[Amon-Sul]

i see your point Axis roll

we should now who goes first

the attacker with his retreat or the defender with its sumbergance

or is it done simultaniously as you ve mentioned

anybody which can clarify this ˝frickin subs˝ issue  :? :?:lol:

[Lili Marleen]

LHTR: In step 7, combat continues unless one of the following conditions occurs (in this order of sequence):

Condition A) Attacker withdraws all attacking units;
Condition B) Defender withdraws all submarines by submerging, leaving no other defending units in play;
Condition C) Either or both sides lose all units.

So the attacker may withdraw before defending subs submerge.

Another nice tactic especially for Germany: If UK (or in same cases US) has a lot of BB (or even combined bombardement), doing attacks (opening fire) like 1 INF + many BB vs. GER or EEU. So GER normally loses a bunch of INFs every round with a value of over 8 IPCs. Then GER should build a SUB in BAL, in order to avoid this opening fire (sub-stalling). The BBs have to fight against the SUB an can´t do their opening fire for the battle in EEU or GER.
I don´t know whether this was already mentioned.

Bye,
Lili

[Krieghund]

@axis_roll:

@Krieghund:

In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.

how does THAT work?

Not very well.

@axis_roll:

Do you each write down your attack/withdraw perogative on paper and show it at the same time… I mean, how ELSE could you do it simultaneously?

That’s about the only way I can think of.  As TimTheEnchanter pointed out, this is an ambiguity in the rules.  There is no FAQ entry, and as far as I know no “official” ruling on this, and that’s why I answered the way I did.  My personal inclination would be to follow the “natural” order of things and let the attacker decide first, as in LHTR.  If anyone cares enough, I can ask Larry Harris, though I suspect his answer would agree with LHTR (for obvious reasons).  Just one more reason to use LHTR rather than the OOB rules.