Whenever I play and the USSR captures Berlin I alway play this song on Youtube. The reaction is great.
End of Round Victory
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That was strategy.
He didn’t luck out. He out witted his opponents.
Sending 1 infantry to attack 100 tanks and winning is lucking out, not out witting.
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So why pick on victory conditions? 1 inf beating 100 tanks shows how bad luck can upset superior strategy/skill, not just in victory cities but anywhere on the map. I would concede the game if 1 inf invaded my capital of 20 units and won, even though there is a mathematical possibility I could recover from it.
Low luck solves it :-D
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Here you are claiming victory by fiat instead of victory through surrender or by superior game play.
“The gate is down” - Ender’s Game :evil:
Nice.
Ender’s opponents thought he cheated too…
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@Bean:
So why pick on victory conditions? 1 inf beating 100 tanks shows how bad luck can upset superior strategy/skill, not just in victory cities but anywhere on the map. I would concede the game if 1 inf invaded my capital of 20 units and won, even though there is a mathematical possibility I could recover from it.
Agree 100%
We all manage the luck / bad dice throughout the game…
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1 infantry beating 200 of my tanks! :lol:
If that inf is Rambo, then I have no hope in winning!When this will happen the game will be suspended and the winner will pay to me at least three beer! :-D
By the way the relevant point is if is it worthy that USA may conquer the 9th VC and then winning the game for the allies.
I have alredy said yes.
I think that it is so for balancing other USA disadvantages. -
The 1 INF killing 50 or 100 ARM is a strawman argument.
While THEORETICALLY possible, I can’t even get a sim to show odds for killing more than 2 ARM if there is 1 INF against only 10 ARM (0.02% chance to kill 2 ARM in that case… 1 in 5,000)
In fact w/ only 3 ARM, the odds are 99.9% for a defender win, 0.1% for mutual destruction, 0% for the INF to survive.
Now, if you want to argue the current method of determining victory in a VC based game, then try doing so from a realistic viewpoint instead of a bogus “Rambo” argument. :roll:
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It’s not really a strawman argument. It is representative of the allies winning despite having a defensive force that no realistic simulator would say the allies have a chance of winning at.
Say America hit you with 6 Infantry, 2 Armor, 4 Fighters and a Battleship in S. Europe. You defended with 12 Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters and an AA Gun.
America only has a 0.03% chance to win that one to get the 9th VC. With the most likely odds of being COMPLETELY destroyed and only killing 7 infantry, so there is a LOT of fudge room for bad dice with Germany still being more then able to defend itself.
Now, in MY alteration, even if America won by some outrageous coincidence of bad dice for Germany and good dice for America, they still wouldn’t necessarily win the game until Germany has had one chance to liberate.
This would forever end the hail Mary and require that you actually be winning the game when you get 9 VC.
It’s like court. It’s better to let the loser have another turn then to steal a victory from a winner.
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@Cmdr:
It’s not really a strawman argument. It is representative of the allies winning despite having a defensive force that no realistic simulator would say the allies have a chance of winning at.
Say America hit you with 6 Infantry, 2 Armor, 4 Fighters and a Battleship in S. Europe. You defended with 12 Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters and an AA Gun.
America only has a 0.03% chance to win that one to get the 9th VC. With the most likely odds of being COMPLETELY destroyed and only killing 7 infantry, so there is a LOT of fudge room for bad dice with Germany still being more then able to defend itself.
Now, in MY alteration, even if America won by some outrageous coincidence of bad dice for Germany and good dice for America, they still wouldn’t necessarily win the game until Germany has had one chance to liberate.
This would forever end the hail Mary and require that you actually be winning the game when you get 9 VC.
It’s like court. It’s better to let the loser have another turn then to steal a victory from a winner.
So German in this case has another army near the VC, not in the VC, ready to counterattack. It should have better if those units was in the VC.
Otherwise, if there is not a big army near the VC, what shall we do?
Allow the Grmany to do his own Hail Mary attack?
Or wait two turns for the Germany to move the army near the VC and then allowing the attack? -
Yea, what was I thinking. :roll: Germany should have left their capitol vacant to defend S. Europe!
Germany left Karelia and W. Europe pretty much empty because the odds of getting S. Europe was insanely small, not Germany’s fault that S. Europe fell because of the dice when all the odds calculators show less then 0.03% chance for allied victory (actually less if you figure they would have to keep an infantry and kill the fighters first to succeed.)
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But thing like this may happen in each battle in the game.
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But each battle of the game doesn’t win by fiat. It just wins a territory. You can lose a territory to this bad luck and still win the game. But not if they magically get 9 VC.
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If Germany is trading Southern, they are pretty much fracked anyway… :evil:
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Yes, well look at the scenario I posted. Germany wasn’t intending to trade Southern. They had it very well defended. America got lucky. But on the next German turn, two Allied Capitols were going to fall, Moscow and London as well as karelia and W. Europe would be liberated. (Add S. Europe if you allow Germany 1 more turn after a 9 VC attainment.)
So in this game, the Axis are by far the victors in reality, but the Allies are the victors by luck and in title.
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Maybe Japan should have stopped to get India or knock out Kwang…I have a difficult time believing the US could split their forces and still have such a far reach on both Axis powers when the Axis are winning! :-P
Also Jen, curious on your reaction - what is your reaction to a German “strategy” that calls for using their 5 IPC bid to roll rockets? (well saving it and using it on their tech roll phase, I don’t think you can roll a tech with a bid right before the game begins, can you?). 1/6 games would pretty much be a straight win for the Axis, because 5 IPCs to buy rockets is an insane edge. Would you feel there’s a need to “correct” the luck factor? I still feel your whole argument revolves around correcting bad luck circumstances, which could be used to further any number of arguments, not just “fixing” the victory city system.
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I think that those situaton in which Axis has still a possibilities to win after USA take the 9 VC are too few to deserve a rule change.
As I said who wants to use house rule ma do that but for no reason I thnik usefule or interesting to change the overall game rules.
I am convinced that USA have this “special abilities” paying that being the last in the round.The question, in fact, is related to the round order, that is part of the design of the game and influence the strategies in many aspects.
The 1-2 punch of German and Japan against Russia.
The landing in WE for example: UK lands and then USA lands.
A worst situation may happen on the ground on the Eastern Front: UK advance, USA and URSS come in to add defense.
Germany avance to Caucasus, Japan send fighter to protect German army there.IMHO, it is the nature of the game to have issues related to the round orders, tht has entered in the parameters to evaluate vhen defining our strategy.
USA attacking for the win is a round-issue feature that is as an abilities of USA, the most important allied nation in WWII, that has changed the course of the real war.
So the fact that USA may decide the fate of A&A for me is natural and correct. -
Bean:
I have to admit I don’t talk technologies much because Switch and Darth have basically killed their use on these boards. :( I wish they would reconsider and allow them in League and/or Tournament play. :) They arn’t nearly as broken as they were in classic, IMHO.
That said, I LOVE GERMAN ROCKETS! Oh my lord! Those things rock! Knock 10 IPC off Russia’s income and 6 off England’s at best! Add that to German and Japanese SBRs of Moscow to get that to 18 total IPC you can potentially remove from Russia’s income a round! (8 Moscow, + 4 Caucasus for Germany, 6 Moscow for Japan assuming no new bombers built.)
Jet Fighters are equally good. Defend at a 5 and immunity to AA Guns.
Super Submarines are really the only tech I still have issues with. The rest have been pretty useful. Though, I have chased Super Submarines in KJF games with America before. Anyway, I’d like to change Super Submarines so that each submarine could transport 1 infantry and attack at a 3 or less (defend at 2 or less). I think that would make the tech more viable, at least for me.
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I LOVE GERMAN ROCKETS! Oh my lord! Those things rock! Knock 10 IPC off Russia’s income and 6 off England’s at best!
A girl after me own heart =P I know you meant 12 by the way - 8 +4 as maximum for Russia.
Jet Fighters are equally good. Defend at a 5 and immunity to AA Guns.
Meh, I don’t like Jet Fighters. Looking at it mathematically you need tons of fighters. If you have 6 jet fighters on defense, they’ll kill 1 more unit on average than 5 normal fighters. I’d rather spend 30 IPCs on fighters (30 being average amount of IPCs to get a tech, which is optimistic) meself! That’s 2 more units killed on average and 2 more units as well.
Super Submarines are really the only tech I still have issues with. The rest have been pretty useful.
SS’s are only good for America in KJF, like you say. I don’t like heavy bombers either; the LHTR version is weaksauce. I think I ran through the numbers once and it turned bombers into units that have an attack power of slightly over 5 dice points; yuck! You’d need reems of bombers to get your money’s worth out of something like that.
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Jet Fighters neutralize the allied annoying tactic of putting AA Guns all over the place because your fighters are immune.
And I meant 10 IPC for Russia. 6 from the rocket attack on Moscow and 4 from the rocket attack on Caucasus. (Remember you can only fire one rocket to each industrial complex per turn.) Add in a bomber to get the two point conversion on Russia for 12 though. WEG
Yea, heavy bombers have been completely castrated. I wouldnt turn them down if they were free, but I wouldnt pay for them either.
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