Axis,
He’s including capitulation as a method of winning outside of total domination. (basically flipping your king down and surrendering.)
So it wouldn’t take that long. But 9 VC is insane unless you give the axis a turn to get one liberated. If you cannot hold 9 VC for an entire turn, you don’t deserve to win. :P To spin the argument made previously about the axis not being able to hold 9 VC and thus not deserving to win.
The game should not be trumped by a hail mary. If you hail mary and your opponent surrenders, that’s a different thing all together. (That would happen on a Hail Mary of London or Berlin or Japan. but not on a hail mary where you have 1 lonely infantry man on S. Europe to win the game.)
@Cmdr:
Way to ignore the very real scenario I painted.
Hamsters in dive bombers armed with laser cannons are unrealistic? obviously u r not current on recent military technology trends . . . although i hear they want to use mice instead of hamsters, something about the Red Chinese arming with elephant-manned antiaircraft batteries . . .
Axis are about to take Moscow and kill off the majority of the Allied armies and air force. USA pulls a hail mary and manages to grab S. Europe getting up to 9 VC but only takes it with 1 unit, a unit Germany will easily crush. But Germany never gets that chance because it’s end of game at 9 VC for the Allies at the end of America’s turn.
So the Axis are about to take Moscow are they? So just what victory cities do they have? Let’s say they have Berlin, Paris, Karelia, and Tokyo because US pulled off a monster KJF and somehow snatched Manchuria. Oh wait, no . . . but then the Allies would still only have 8 VC! So let’s say that the Axis only have Berlin, Paris, and Tokyo - possibly the least significant of those VCs. (edit) - that is, the most important remaining VCs meaning that the Allies have made the least significant progress - (/edit) So the Axis are “about to take Moscow”, but Japan’s already lost most of its islands and been kicked out of Asia, and Germany lost Southern Europe to a US invasion that could have been seen coming twenty miles away. Also, Karelia is lost, so either the Allies have contained Germany, or the UK and/or US have a north Atlantic fleet! That game isn’t close at all, the Axis are getting their asses handed to them.
Why would you be afraid of letting the axis have one more turn to see if you hold that 9th VC? Are you so weak of a player you need the Hail Mary option to be open for the Allies? Don’t the Axis have enough bad odds stacked against them that you need the allies to have another benefit?
No need for a rule that will put off the inevitable defeat. The Axis are already dead at that point, so let them lie peacefully in their graves.
Hamster dive bombers with laser cannons FTW!
But they are not already dead. They had a bad roll resulting in a Hail Mary success. However, they could have a pair of 500 IPC armies (Germany has 500, Japan has 500) and the allies all put together may only have 400 IPC army.
You think if Russia is falling on Germany’s next turn and Karelia is being taken and W. Europe is going to be liberated a lucky roll in S. Europe should give the Allies the win?
Just tell me how the Axis have 3 VC at the end of the US turn, but the Axis are still winning.
I just did.
Let me re-iterate with more detail:
It’s Germany’s turn, Germany decides to “lurch” leaving S. Europe with a 70% chance of survival against all invaders (say only America for argument’s sake.) Karelia is left undefended to stack W. Russia. W. Europe is left undefended to stack Germany and bring S. Europe up to protect it against an American strike (so America only has a 6% chance to survive an invasion attempt there.)
Japan’s been kicked off the mainland with a significant portion of the Allied armies tied up kicking them off the mainland. For instance, they were just destroyed but now a majority of the Russian, American and British armies are there, the rest are protecting Moscow.
Germany has a 100% chance of victory in Moscow and enough forces in Berlin to retake W. Europe if the Allies invade there. Karelia is ignored because Germany wants to crush Moscow so they have enough forces left to pose a significant threat to England after Russia falls.
England invades Karelia and W. Europe, placing 1 infantry in each.
America pulls off the Hail Mary winning in S. Europe but only having 1 infantry and some fighters left to take it. (Thus only 1 infantry is remaining.)
Here is a map to illustrate my point.
Obviously the Allies in this situation are going to get their butts handed to them because when Russia falls, England will lose Africa and eventually london long before the allies can stop the Germans and the Japanese.
On Germany’s next turn they can no only reclaim Karelia, W. Europe and S. Europe but conquer Russia and, possibly, England.
But America did a Hail Mary and won in S. Europe, against the odds (against HUGE odds) and the Allies have 9 VC at the end of USA’s turn.
Why should the allies win in this case? Why shouldn’t the axis powers have at least one turn to stop the win? After all, the point of a 9 VC game is to keep players from being mule headed when it’s clear they’ve lost, it’s just going to take 5 hours of game play to make it happen. But in cases like this, it’s not clear the Axis have lost. It’s actually pretty clear the Axis are going to win.
However, let’s say the allies were really winning a game, then the Axis would be unable to liberate a VC after one additional round, right? So what’s the harm in giving them the opportunity to stop a TKO?
[attachment deleted by admin]
To clarify, Germany has the following Chances of liberation:
London: 3 Infantry, 3 Armor, 4 Fighters, Bomber vs 5 Infantry, 3 Armor, AA Gun
Attacker: 90.5% of having 1 Armor remaining at the end of the battle
Defender: 8.5% of having 1 Armor remaining at the end of the battle
Moscow: 40 infantry, 7 Artillery, 26 Armor vs 15 Infantry, 5 Armor, 5 Fighters, Bomber
Attacker: 100% chance of having at least one armor left at the end of battle
Defender: 0% chance of having anything left after the battle.
Karelia: 4 Infantry, Fighter vs Infantry
Attacker: 100% chance of having at least one infantry left at the end of battle
Defender: 0% chance of having anything left after the battle.
S. Europe: 10 Infantry, 5 Armor vs Infantry
Attacker: 100% Chance of having at least one armor left at the end of battle
Defender: 0% chance of having anything left after the battle
W. Europe: 15 Infantry, 2 Armor, 3 Fighters vs INfantry
Attacker: 100% chance of having at least one armor left at the end of battle
Defender: 0% chance of having anything left after the battle
That goes from 9 VC for the allies to 4 VC for the allies just by allowing Germany to have one turn.
I thought you had to hold 9 VC till the next turn. so if Germany took the last VC then the next german turn they would win.
No, the rules stipulate that you only have to have 9 VC at the end of any given round. When America collects income, that’s the end of the round.
:-o
Umm Ya, The allies deserve to win if the Axis has all those troops and can’t properly defend their Victory cities. Just suck it up to a learning game and reset the board. It’s a GAME!
Geeze!!!
Either have a house rule; “Germany gets one round to redeam itself” or, play to 10 VC. Then it should be pretty well decided.
and they call me Crazy. :roll:
Jen, that’s why they call it the Hail Mary pass. It’s the fourth quarter with seconds to nothing left on the clock and you’ve got one shot to seal the deal for the win. If you get it, the game’s yours, end of story. The other team, barring a penalty, isn’t going to whine that they should get another shot to see if they can respond. That would defeat the entire point of the game. They had 59:59 minutes worth of game time to score more points and hold the other team. They didn’t (or couldn’t) do it.
Ergo, translation, if Germany couldn’t hold her three main territories during the course of the game through frugal management, and the US manages to score a last second strike on a couple of VCs and manages to win with 1 inf left, then so be it. That’s the ball game folks.
So the Allies are somehow dumb enough to devote all those forces to pushing Japan out of Asia instead of moving in towards Moscow to reinforce when Germany is heavy on Moscow.
Also, the Axis are dumb enough to lose the north Atlantic, the Mediterranean, totally lose control of the Pacific, Asia, and islands - for quite some time too, I might add, since the Allies taking Kwangtung is a lengthy proposition. And yet the Axis think they deserve to win?
Honestly, BOTH sides should lose. I’ve never seen such a pathetically mismanaged game on both sides, though.
KJF strat. Only reason America attacked was to save the game because Russia was going down hard.
Anyway, I’m calling for a house rule, basically an official change to LHTR to provide that you must hold the VCs for a full round, not just luck out with America and steal the game.
Jen, this game has to be finished the turn before!
Allies have 9 VC at the end of USA turn.
But they have grabbed SE with a last ditch attack in SE.
So at the beginning of the USA turn allied has only 8 VC (and Axis 4).
But Moscow was conquered in the German Turn giving to Axis 4 VC.
Then Axis have only 3 VC at the beginning of German turn and Allies have 9VC.
There is only a possible consequence to that: Allies already had 9 VC at the end of the preceding turn and the game should have finished at the end of the turn before.
Axis have already had the additional turn that you speak about and lose.
End of Germany: Axis have 6 VC (Germany, Karelia, W. Europe, S. Europe, Japan, Philippines)
End of America: Allies have 9 VC (W. Europe, Karelia, Russia, S. Europe, Kwangtung, E. USA, W. USA, England, India)
But if you make the allies hold those VC until the next enemy’s turn is complete, the axis will have:
Moscow, Karelia, W. Europe, S. Europe, Germany, England, Philippines and Japan; 7 VC and two of them are enemy capitols, the traditional way to win the game.
This is a major problem. America should not have that much influence over the game, they are one country. They should be equal to the other 4 countries and not a wild card that can trump the axis through ridiculous luck.
@Cmdr:
This is a major problem. America should not have that much influence over the game, they are one country. They should be equal to the other 4 countries and not a wild card that can trump the axis through ridiculous luck.
you raise valid point. however I do not think it is a major problem because it works for both sides.
I’ve seen desperate Caucasus grabs by Japan and even Germany when the opportunity is there (READ no UK or US to take back before the end of the game turn).
I would be curious to see the results of several games of play testing to see if this helps one side or another.
But it does not work for both sides because no matter what happens, America always gets a turn to liberate or take the 9th VC and thus has undue power over the game for a nation that’s usually relegated to a support role.
In this other example (that is different from the preceding) I see that Allied have Kwantung and not Philippines, a little bit strange. Moreover it is a completely speculative scenario.
But we may consider this still possible.
So what happens after the end of the German turn?
Allied are able to conquer three VC: W. Europe, S. Europe and Karelia.
They where all controlled by Germany that loses all three of them in a single turn.
A real genious.
For me this is already enough to say stop to this slaughtering!
But we may go further and consider the strategy of the German player.
The fact that having 9 VC means game over is known to all the players.
So German player should know that if he loses three VC he loses.
He may not plan to conquer England and Moscow in the same turn leaving open the VC he controls.
But the German player do not care and instead of thinking to defend himself he managed to lose three VC in a single turn. Now, he may also have 500 IPC of units available to obliterate the allied troops but if he place them in the wrong place he deserve to lose!
Indeed I think that reaching 9 VC is the result of a global advance of one side.
It is possible that one side is at 8 VC and is already winning and to try to finish the game attempt one attack, and USA may do this more easily tha German does, but is only a matter of time.
In most games you’re probably right, who ever has 9 VC is probably winning.
But in some games it is totally and completely broken because the allies can, in effect, cheat their way to a victory.
How do you fix it so that it’s never a cheat and the persons with 9 VC at the end are winning all the time? By requiring that you have 9 VC after the enemy gets a chance to reclaim some.
I don’t think what I’m asking for is too ridiculous. All I’m saying is that maybe the allies (or the axis for that matter) should have to HOLD 9 VCs for a very brief amount of time (1 turn by the enemy).
I have not said that it is ridicolous.
I am only wondering if it possible other than the theoretical scenario depicted.
I see them as very much improbable. So what we could obtain?
Changing the rule for a very particular and highly improbable case we will create problem to the general case that now we have not.
It is like the Amdahl’s law: in a system the perfomance improvement for a partial enhancement is proportional to the real use of the portion of system that has been enhanced. Consequence: the way to improve the system is to work for the general not for the improbable specific case.
Couldn’t the Axis plan better and not give Kwangtung to the Americans? I’m too lazy to go through all the unit listings, but if you say the Japanese has 500 IPCs of tanks on the mainland, how did they let the Americans get Kwang for a turn? I think this is just another consideration you have to make, even if it comes up not that often. If we did as you say, then there’s no point to victory cities at all, which is actually what you might want since you’re looking at it as more of whose army/positioning/economy is better rather than who has the VCs.
The best way isn’t to try to do something that would only apply to one side (the allies). Either suck it up and just remember that as part of your planning, or try to abolish the VC system entirely (or require 10 VCs, omg that would take forever!!)
