-25 bid challenge: conclusions


  • This is a set of conclusions of a challenge a sent this summer. The rules are:

    • I play axis deleting 25 IPCs: 17 of Japan, 4 of Italy and 4 of Germany
    • 1941 scenario, NOs and Techs ON
    • Optionals (Dardanelles and scorts) OFF
    • Normal dices

    I must tank Pin, Mr Green and JWW for taking the challenge. It was fun and instructive, and was good sportmanship in all the games

    I’ll make a resume of each game and later a global conclusion. Contributions of all are welcomed, specially of the 3 challengers  🙂


  • The three openings were very similar, but got different results. Let’s examine the games in order

    1. Pin’s game http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14677.0

    Round 1 - Egypt cleared but not taken, z12 survives with 1 cruiser. No a brillant start for germans, but Japan does good and kills China as expected, before China has any chance of doing something, even wrong things (I exploit that weakeness in game design as default). Soviets do a interesting purchase (1 bomber, 6 inf), while UK tries fight axis in Egypt and USA builds fleets in two oceans

    Round 2 - I get LRA as germans and it let’s me kill some US boats as well as taking Karelia. Killing bst soviet units allow secure it for next round. Japan expands to Australia and India (a early Godzilla), and soviets success in a risky move against german cruiser. However, UK decides kill Poland stack instead of retaking Karelia. Start of US SBRs on Germany

    Round 3 – aussie boats killed by rogue german bombers and Karelia secured more hardly. Japan continues her buildup and menaces Pacific fleet. UK hits Norway and NEW. Italians, unnoticed in Africa, continue expanding. USA continues SBRs and launch Torch. At this moment I have a solid defense in France ( a mix of italian and german units) and stacks of german infatery are on march against USSR. But USA escapes from Pacific Ocean

    Round 4 – I conserve Karelia yet another round and collect the 3 Nos, while still buying 11 guys in total. USSR make a good turn and send some support to last chinamen in Chinghai. Japan exploits lack of US boats to take Alaska, Hawai and N. Zealand, gets WB and become even more Godzilla, with 3 asian ICs working
    Pin chooses clearely a North African strat and also, noticing the menace, backs to Pacific and setup a counter against Alaska next round. Also gets Super Shipyards, a very good tech for USA. SBRs on Berlin continue, relentessly. I notice the menace for italian navy and escape to Indian Ocean’s safety (a good old move from days of Revised)

    Round 5 – Again I buy 11 guys, conserve Karelia, counter Finland and continue my slow advance against USSR. Soviets has only 5 tanks and I wonder if this is hurting them badly (they cannot make a solid push against Karelia and Ukranie at the same time). Japan continues her advance in land and also setups a counter against USA’s fleet, also collecting 74 IPCs!. UK continues supply North Africa, but SAF is taken by italians. At this point, is clear that a lack of SAF IC is damaging UK badly, because Italy is still collecting almost the same as UK. USA has recovered from my rogue assault against them last round and recovers ala & haw. Still SBRs continue

    Round 6 – Norway is strafed and now I even start buying tanks. France is now defended only by italian units, and that is a plus. I have now a big stack at Epol, menacing advances against Ukr. USSR make a big bid and stacks Arkangel. Pin says that maybe it’s a error, because he could be trading Cau for Kar, and he is right, because Japan take Caucasus (75 IPCs collected). UK takes Egypt, but italian units are safe in the south. USA continues SBR and stack the Pacific fleet

    Round 7 – I must shift the focus, leaving Karelia and menacing a trade of Caucasus. Since I cannot buy more units at Leningrad, I buy a bomber and 9 land units. Soviets retake kar and cau lightly, but get paras. Now they are surrounded by all places saving Karelia and the Baltic. Japan gets aggressive, clearing Egypt at costly prize but closing that bottleneck, and taking also Midway and menacing USA’s fleet. Italians recover one NO, collecting more than UK. USA’s Pacific fleet stacks, and continue SBRs and north african dominance

    Round 8 – I trade kar and cau again. Pin surrenders after G8

    Resume of the game: I think early german LRA countered the bad opening. I usually don’t roll naval tech for germans, but that time had interesting combos. In long run, LRA forced pin to build two big fleets to ensure the landings, but the thing that aided more to Germany was the early taking of Karelia. Even with USA’s SBRs, I was be able of almost maxing the production of land units. Probably soviets started to buy tanks too late (not sure of this), but having only one plane hurted them because I have much advantage in tradings

    UK didn’t buy a SAF IC, and that damaged them. UK must fight all the IPCs they can, I cannot blame Pin for not defending India and Australia (both are very difficult of hold, probably a flaw of designer), but something have to be done with Africa and Scandinavia, and UK lacks the income to fight both at the same time unless they buy SAF IC. Italians are pretty good supplying defenses for France, and with this improved income, I could use Italy as shield and Germany as sword

    I think USA was well played in general: SBRs and Pacific fleet are, in my opinion, the way to go. But Japan is simply too easy of play: the kill China J1 exploit is a joke, Japan has no real enemies at west and is ridiculous that can collect a 20% more than USA


  • I’ll examine Mr. Green and JWW games later. I must be very critic with myself in MrGreen game, because he made a big win agaisnt me  :lol: Probably his supergood play of USSR gave him the victory


  • Thanks Func!

    Great recap.


  • http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14676.0

    2) Mistergreen’s game

    Round 1 – This time Egypt goes utterly bad (I kill 2 infs and UK kills 3 units) I retreat to at least save Lybia. This it going to hurt. However, I do the same as in Pin’s game and all the other attacks go well: ukr, epol, bst, z12 and z6. Soviets are very aggressive: attack 2 zones and buy 6 tanks: it’s a totally different R1 than Pin’s
    Japan goes worst than Pin’s game: fuk is not taken and Mc Arthur kill 2 jap infs at Phi, but it’s not so cathastrophical as Egypt. I leave Manchuria open to a possible soviet attack, exploiting game bugs again (Manchuria income will not go to USSR and chineses will not use that because Japan will take before than China). The attack is very similar to later time
    UK leaves form Egypt and India and try hold Middle East, buy boats for Europe. Since there are no axis troops in Egypt and a counter is setup, in this case is reasonable not build SAF IC, and MrGreen wisely decides not doing so. Joins fleets at z45 and builds one sub to z56, the rest against Europe. Intriguing, and it doesn’t compromise him to nothing. Italy takes Egypt and fuk inf fails in a risky attack

    Round 2 – I get paras, a great tech, and so I buy 1 bomber. But a attack on bst fails. Even if I take Sudan, the bad G1 is starting to hurt: only 38 IPCs colected. USSR buys more offensive units and doesn’t bit the bait in Manchuria, retreating to Siberia: a fair good soviet turn (the submarine starts its typical trip of pleasure to Indian Ocean). Japan takes India and Australia, but collects less than Pin’s J2 (only 57), buying a Manchurian IC
    UK uberstacks TRJ (5 inf, 2 art, tank, fig, aa gun) and protects Congo with 2 inf: I’m trapped if I want hold Egypt, so no need of SAF IC again. Takes Norway. Egypt failure is starting to hurt very bad
    USA stacks z56 and does Torch (with 4 units). China is cornered again, but this time has 2 infs instead of classical 1

    Round 3 – 1 more bomber, but only 8 land units. This lack of defense will hurt me later, probably I’m getting too confident with shiny paras. I cannot use them much more than for speeding up units against USSR. At least I collect more: 40 IPCs. Stack Egypt
    Soviets buy even more tanks (2 this time) and stack Epol. This is a critical blow: I didn’t saw that time, but seems a combo of few german untis and plenty of soviet tanks can be deadly for axis. If I played again this turn, probably would skip the bomber and instead buy 4 tanks, 6 inf (to ensure non stack Epol). Maybe I sent too much defenders to France
    Japan send more fodder to Egypt (2 figs), but her buildup is slower than in Pin’s game: only 62 IPCs. IC to India, a thing that later will discover as a big mistake: Burma would be better
    UK SBRs Germany and send untis to Karelia and Epol, canceling soviet NO. It’s a all against Germany now, exploiting german weakeness in eastern front. Takes Iwo Jima with aussies and the protects with USA, earning a new NO for UK, a great move. Since my fleets are busy in Australia and Madagascar, I cannot destroy the combinated fleet! They even SBR Berlin, and USA buys some more boats for Pacific

    Round 4 – Germany buys 10 infs, but have not enough for all: I manage retake Finland from soviets (to prevent them getting the big NO), but I’m force to left France empty. I collect 34 IPCs and it’s getting worse
    Nasty soviets buy 1 more tank and even a bomber, the uberstack at Epol continues: seems Stalin will not let this one escape, and even enters in Bulgaria
    Japan takes SAF by tra, but it’s forced to send figs to protect Egypt and even Poland! I cannot kill Iwo fleet, so I must stack z60 and Japan to have a chance. China is taken totally, and I collect 66 IPCs
    With channel closed (by trj stack), Italian fleet cannot escape to Indian Ocean and is killed by RAF (costly, but mission complete, one more point to allies). Takes France and collects 43!
    Italian attack on TRJ succes and seems clear the situation, but I send 8 infs against France and reveals as an error: USA takes the risk and kills the stack,destroying my defensive system. This is almost as bad as Egypt G1: USA colects 61 IPCs and add more boats against Japan. Now west axis cannot hold all fronts

    Round 5 – Soviet stack forces me to trade France again. Even if I manage buy 10 more infs, it’s clear that I cannot hold this way much time, and now there is no way of soviets taking their big NO. He adds more soviet tanks to the fight! And since UK retreated form soviet land last round, USSR collects 42 IPCs. Ouch!
    Japan retakes Iwo Jima and annoys Africa. Jap figs must defend Italy now. Economic advantage is on allied side (opposite to Pin’s game)
    UK makes a very aggressive move: attacks France with 4 infs, 2 tanks. I can toast that with Germany, but that would mean leaving Poland! And Italy cannot retake, so It’s more IPCs to USA as well. Ouch ouch!
    USA’s SBRs continue with 1 bomber only, but now MrGreen shift the focus and builds mostly in EUSA, advancing also to Lybia with a stack

    Round 6 – to stack France, I must leave Poland and bul to trade. This hurts, and I must stack Hungary to ensure I can trade bul next time (yes, you read well: 19 inf, 1 art to hun/cze). Afrika Korps must escape to Middle East: I cannot hold against Eisenhower’s troops
    USSR get’s rockets! This is a deadly blow, and he brings more tanks to the fight (4). More than that: in a brightly good shift, he sends his stacks to Ukr and Caucasus. The target is clear: India, and he has 20 tanks and about 15 infs to do the job. He can allow retreating from Epol because there are no german stack at Poland! Poland traded!
    Super artillery is not going to aid Japan. Even if I control most of Africa with them, India is going to be a problem. I approach to Pacific fleet: it will be enough? I doubt so…
    A new UK’s attack on France costs more units to him than to me, but he can afford lose 8 units and I cannot afford lose 6. I cannot exploit soviet retreat now!
    USA escapes to Solomon sz using aussie dd as block, and starts a big shuck against north Africa, bombing more Berlin. His system is starting to work as a clock

    Round 7 – paras make a good attack and take Norway, so I can gain my NO again and prevent soviet one. My system seems restored, but it’s only a ilusion: I only built 9 units due soviet rockets
    Soviets continue with rockets and stack Persia. India will be lost next round: 4 tanks build in Stalingrad to join the fight! Japan collects 70, but seems not enough, for first time in many games, even if I kill the aussie fleets and retake Carolines and Hawai. Super Industry, but even then seems not enough
    UK gets supershipyards, go figure, and learns the lesson, stacking Norway. USA gets radar and escapes to z39 (west Australia). Ike pursues italian army to south

    Round 8 – paras are not valuable anymore: I must foucus in holding the position at many places, but at least USSR will not get the big NO next time. India is evacuated totally (Rommel and his Burma Korps!)
    USSR trades India and shifts again the focus! Now he has the tank stack at Ukr and still buy even more tanks
    Japan retakes India in force and make a great victory killing USA’s z39 fleet, but cannot advance to novo or Siberia. This will be the last victory for axis, and I have still to retake Australia. UK uberstacks Norway and now has 6 trannies: defense is getting more difficult, and now USA is totally KGF: seems the Pacific fleet was a distraction. Ike is about to chase fleeing italians in Rhodesia

    Round 9 – germans stack Poland, but soviets take the big NO again. Soviets get super industry and aims for China now. They seem being in are places, tanks are big!
    Japan faces various lone subs and must kill only one, retakes the advance, hoping arrive at time. UK continues annoying and Italy is now a mere inf supplier. USA gets jet figs and sets up a stack at Persia

    Round 10 – Germay does relatively good, but USSR sends the final blow against Japan: a total of 60 soviets units will take and hold India next round. No way of preventing this, so Japan will not arrive never at time to save west axis. I surrender

    Resume

    Cathastrophe at Egypt, few german units, a too early India IC and a agressive USSR. Mistergreen played much better and deserves the victory. Seems a offensive Soviet Union can solve some of the problems allies have. My only concern is that even with so much flaws in my strat I could resist 10 turns

    Tanks, tanks and more soviet tanks! Great strat, MrGreen!  🙂


  • I’d still like to see a KJF against this -25 strategy.


  • Imo, you have to play at least 100 games to get a solid experience of the balance level in AA50, if you play with tech.

    And the AA50 (veteran A&A players) playtesters said that you cannot judge balance if you’re playing with tech. This isn’t a tech or no tech discussion, but I strongly agree with that statement.

    There is much more randomness included in any AA50 games with techs on, also compared to Revised. And for regular dice, it is mostly the first rnd which differs from Revised in this aspect. If the first rnd goes “average”, there is not much more randomness/luck in AA50 compared to Revised, when using regular dice.

    When giving a bid to allies, there is no need for more than 6-9 ipc in a preplaced unit bid.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Lol the game is balanced.

    The social rule in Axis and Allies that players are too arrogant to accept, is, that is doesn’t matter how good you are, best in the world. played 5000 games, whatever. there are still games you are going to lose. Hands down. dice/counter strategies/errors etc.

    If you can’t accept that, dont play the game, and for gods sake don’t try and fix what ain’t broke.

    The point I see trying to be made here with a controlled -25 bid. is that “the Axis has an unbelievable game” edge.

    Wrong.  Put a factory to start in Bulgaria and 2 extra arm in LIB, or just 25 IPC’s to Germany, and your probably just as susceptible to defeat as you are at -25 against decent play.

    Why not playtest it both ways? against players of equal caliber?

    $25 is a piddlance, from memory there is like $600 + of units on the starting board.

    Then people talk about how they need a 6 Ipc bid to “have a chance” and that this less then 1% game board variation makes or breaks the game.

    Then the infamous quote “They never playtested this”, my response, “No? they just guessed it down to a less than 1% Variance?” Come off it! :s

    Why not just move some pieces around? instead of adding or subtracting? It’s the same concept.

    It’s un-needed, un-warranted, and un-appreciated by fans like me, and probably Larry himself.

    What a ridiculous thread, about someone’s personal beef, probably over the fact they can’t handle they got their ass beat down fair and square. And probably more often than once.

    Care for a straight shot at me? No bids? You can take Axis? or bid as Axis, so I can make my point, I don’t care, I’d still play, and have the same odds at winning.


  • I think players should acknowledge the very big difference between AA50 and Revised/AA42, mainly b/c the first in AA50 is very different from the first rnd in Revised/AA42. That is with regular dice ofc. There is so much that can go wrong for axis, and sometimes it does…

    If we assume a series of 15-20 games, it’s extremely probable that the axis side will get diced in the first rnd in several of such games, (during a series of games), regardless of experience and skill level.

    Telamon had a very interesting “essay” on how the dice influence in AA50 during the first rnd, and many (regular dice) games are plain and simply set after the first rnd, which is, imo, bad. It does not alter the fact that (imo) AA50 is way better than Revised in a total perspective.

    I think too many seem to forget the importance of Egy G1.


  • @Subotai:

    And the AA50 (veteran A&A players) playtesters said that you cannot judge balance if you’re playing with tech. This isn’t a tech or no tech discussion, but I strongly agree with that statement.

    But the flaw of the game is pathetic China status, the kill China J1 bug and the 5 starting jap trannies. You will have those problems even in a non tech game, and even before anyone has a chance of getting a tech that affects China and Far East that could save allies (if Japan gets a tech J1, it only will become worst, never better). Those problems are critical because you have zero chances of changing them with normal rules and vanilla setup: they are there by default. It’s very difficult for me believe that AA50 playtesters say about tech and balance if they even didn’t noticed the various big bugs Far East has. They even claim the game is as balanced with NOs as without NOs!  😛

    I’ll not enter in tech debate this time because is irrelevant, but at least I must agree with Subo that Egypt is critical, as MrGreen’s game reveals. However, there is a great difference if Egypt fails with -25 bid than with no bid: it hurts much more in case of -25 bid if Egypt fails

    Agh … ! I must find more time to comment JWW’s game …


  • @Gargantua:

    Lol the game is balanced.

    Care for a straight shot at me? No bids? You can take Axis? or bid as Axis, so I can make my point, I don’t care, I’d still play, and have the same odds at winning.

    So far it seems that AA50 is as balanced as Revised, or very close, at least.

    But giving a unit bid to axis will only make it worse.

    If Germany attacks Egy G1 every game (original setup), they got Africa for several rnds, about 60%-75% of all games. Kalia G1 is risky, b/c Germany will have to commit every air unit in this attack.

    Even if there is a bigger difference from Revised if we play some games with regular dice and some games with LL, b/c the number of attacks will favor the attacker in LL, not the defender. When playing LL it helps see dice importance in AA50 compared to Revised, b/c in Revised LL or regular dice is a minor difference for the game balance. Not so in AA50 though.
    But for a series of games, the good/bad (regular) dice and luck will even out also in AA50.

    The point I’m trying to make is that in 1vs1 competitive setting, it’s extremely unlikely that an experience player will lose to a (slightly?) better player, in Revised, as allies in a no bid game, and this applies for both series of games, and a single game.

    In AA50, because the dice is much more important in the first rnd, it is easier to win or lose in a no bid game compared to Revised. This is especially true for a single game. But not for a series of games. It’s just a question of how many (AA50) games we need to play to see that axis are generally favored, in a no bid +NOs, no tech, and no other rules game.

    I have lost several games as axis with no bids, +NOs, regular dice, no tech. But I won more than I lost, probably b/c axis are slightly favored.

    You will not have the same odds for winning if axis gets a unit bid, but if you are a better player than (i.e.) me, you have a good shot at winning as allies in a no bid, +NOs, regular dice, no tech game. Same goes for an allied bid, then allies will have better odds for winning.

    Even if axis gets only an infantry for a unit bid, this will make it very difficult for allies.


  • http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14675.0

    3) JWW’s game

    Round 1 - Germany makes a big success at Egypt but fails BST. As result, I must retreat from Ukr after a small strafe. USSR buys 4 tanks, takes fin, kills baltic cruiser and stacks Buryatia. This time I skip fuk to ensure killing the indian fleet, but China is basically killed J1 anyway. UK makes a big navy buy (no ICs), but makes a error stacking trj with 2 inf, bomber, a error Italy is going to exploit, killing the bomber and taking trj in the process while getting the 2nd NO after the retake of alg. A bit of luck for me, I must say
    With USA, JWW makes a solid opening, buying boats for z10, stacking z56 and sending the airfleet to Australia. But dices betray him again and loses at Torch operation

    Round 2 - I killed allied navy in z12 losing only 1 sub. Also stacked Pol, fin & trj and continue expansion in Africa. USSR stacks kar, trj & chi and also advances in force to Manchuria. But a japanese counter kills the whole stack whithout loses (again, very lucky for me). I decide consolidate Japan’s position, so India and aus are not conquered yet and I focus in China, where I kill the last 2 chinamen and ensure soviets cannot liberate nothing important
    Italy does the same as Japan: consolidate, but lady luck favors JWW this time and yanks hit LRA killing z60 jap fleet losing only 4 figs! That’s a big blow indeed. China? No more chinamen!

    Round 3 - Germany fails again at bst, counters Norway and stacks France & trj. The biggest stack is now at Epol and Afrika Korps advance to eaf, dancing around UK infs. USSR evacuates Persia, takes fin and consolidates, same as does Japan, but now they have ICs at FIC & man. I buy 3 jap subs just in case JWW advances with his fleet. UK escapes from India to Persia, takes Norway and join aussie tra with USA’s fleet, while UK’s inf at Africa ignore the tank and split in two. Italy fortifies trj and France (latter is getting a stereotype in my games). USA takes Solomon islands and sets up a big SBRs campaign against Germany

    Round 4 - Finally I taken bst, man! Also, a lucky shoot at rho lets german tank kill 1 inf and live to get saf later. Trj guys retreat to Egypt to protect it, while european stacks continue advancing at solid pace. Germany has 2 bombers now and colects 45 IPCs. With soviets, JWW still has not buyed any figs, so trading is costing him arts & tanks. However, and even if Siberia is now in solid control of japs, USSR makes a decent total of 32 IPCs. Japan finally complete conquest of China and India and scores 60 IPCs, also sending one fleet to south to compete against USA’s navy
    UK starts a north dominant Afrika strat, so I decide escape with the italian fleet to Indian ocean and take mad in the process. I stack Egypt also to ensure one more time of that one as axis held. USA adavances to z39 (west of Australia), stacks planes at cau, aids UK in alg and also starts a shuck from WUSA. Seems he decides using his fleet as distraction for Japan taking advantage of LRA to restric movements. Is he shifting to KGF?

    Round 5 - I clear Lybia, take SAF and continue the advancing germans (one more bomber built). USSR continues trading but does nothing special saving a stack in chi. Now collects 27 only (NO cancelled by USA’s figs at cau)
    With Japan, I make a rogue small assault at Alaska. It’s not a Polar Express, just I try damage USA’s economy a bit. A stack of 8 is now at India and I sent a fleet to z37 to defend from USA
    UK gets Improved Industry, continues the suck for alg and retakes mad with the sneaky ANZAC. I must stack Sudan with Italy now, and also Italy itself, while join fleets with Japan at FIC. USA stacks z29 (east of mad), continues the suck and starts the real SBRs, but has bad luck and loses 2 bombers (11 of damage to Germany)

    Round 6 - Germany gets war bounds, a nice tech at this moment. I manage building 10 units after the repairings, but no more nasty planes this time. 48 IPCs this time with War Bounds
    USSR continues trading and the stack on Chi (with UK supporters from Persia). Japan retakes mad in a very risky move, trades Persia and menaces USA’s Indian fleet while stacks Carolines to aim for Nzel or Aus later. UK SBRs ger and takes Egypt so they got a NO and a total of 33 IPCs! Italy, having bombed as well, decides buy one tech roll (not success) and keeps rest of the money.USA evacuates Indian Ocean and SBR Germany to 18, continuing the suck to alg. Now is getting full KGF mode

    Round 7 - Germany repairs the whole 18 damage and still buys 10 infs! Now I must stack EAF, but european stacks are advancing without problem since west allies are totally centered in Afrika shuck. I have a big stack woth 16 german tanks at Epol, menacing both cau and kar, creating toruble for soviets to defend both. France is secured
    Now soviets can afford trade only ukr and fail bad at bst so road to Karelia is open! Japan takes Australia (no more UK’s NO) and SBRs Stalingrad (two can play the same game)
    At this point, axis economics are about 120 and allied are about 100, so JWW decides risk D-Day with UK. He fails, losing only a few italian infs, and is forced to retreat from chi, so no more NO also for USSR
    Italy hits paras! But I cannot afford a bomber by now, so I must reinforce France and buy more defenders for Italy itself (after repairing a bit of damage). The stack is now at Rho and still join fleets with Japan
    USA makes D-Day, part 2 and is defeated also (not big, but enough to not take France). JWW knows he is trading valuable allied units for cheap italian fodder and concedes, because he cannot destroy axis system


  • Conclusions for JWW’s game:

    For this game events, I think old Revised strats don’t work. North African dominance was a classic then, but now don’t works because allies cannot support both Africa and Europe, so my stacks had a happy day advancing. The distraction on Japan has merit (I was not expecting that trip to Johannesburg), but that didn’t stop Japan, even with that good shoot at my fleet

    About luck at this match, in general favored me, but there were some lucky shoots for allies as 2 early bst and z60. However, I think it not was the crucial factor

    I was a bit surprised my west axis african troops lived the whole game, even forced to escape to rho. But a interesting thing in this game is how well Germany can resist a heavy SBR campainn if colets 40-50 IPCs. Allied SBRs alone are not enough, and that’s good. Worst than that, I had my own japanese SBR campaing prepared just in case the match continued.

    I must say JWW played a solid game if you must ask me. But the truth is that economic advantage is on axis side in 1941, a real handicap for allies


  • Conclusions for the whole challenge

    First, repeat that I enjoyed good sportmanship and fine skills of the challangers. Thanks to all again!

    Overall, I think the best chance allies have to make real damage to Germany is with a very agressive USSR. That was the game I lost and the one that gave my more troubles almost from starting. I’m a bit surprised of this fact, and intrigued, but the fact still is there

    I think we must forget Revised and Classic strats, the game has changed too much. Nor North African dominance (alone) nor SBRs (alone) are going to solve allies day. At the same time, Polar Express is not a valid counter now to KGF because of that Perry Channel frozen, because USA can mount a distraction operation as JWW did and because JTDTM is more easy this time. The most I could do is a small trading of Alaska, not a full invasion

    Economic advantage is on axis side if Japan is ignored, so a strafing strat against west axis is not going to work: West axis is harder than USSR and resists more, Japan will arrive always at time to save their friends. SBRs don’t work for the same reason: USSR will suffer more than Germany + Italy from this

    Since I got beaten by MrGreen, who did a aggresive USSR, I guess the proper bid cannot go beyond -25 (soviets will exploit a too weak west axis if only a few bad rolls as Egypt appear). But since I won the other two games, my conclusion is that the proper bid, with current league system is in the range of -19 to -25 (17 is the max amount you can rest from Japan’s cash, and both Italy and Germany can afford a only inf buy)

    I’m pretty sure I’m forgetting some things. Feel free of remembering me them!  🙂

    It was fun! As final note, I suggest you give a chance to 1942 scenario some times, it’s really fun  🙂


  • 3 games is not a sufficient sample.

    a +6 allies bid is WAY worse than a -25 for the Axis.  2 inf -> egy is pretty tough to overcome for the Axis.


  • Good summaries Funcioneta.

    I am certain by now I have played well over 100 AA50-41 games. I fell overall the game is balanced but at the same time I feel some help for China, mainly moving the Flying Tiger off the front line would be order.

    I do also agree with your overall assessment that AA50-41 can not be played like revised. Russia can and should be aggressive in this version. I also think that ignoring Japan is playing with fire for the Allies.

    So to sum up my viewpoint I do not think a bid is necessary, but I do also feel that moving the Flying Tiger off the front lines and perhaps placing 1 infantry in each starting Chinese territory would improve things, without unbalancing the game.


  • @a44bigdog:

    So to sum up my viewpoint I do not think a bid is necessary, but I do also feel that moving the Flying Tiger off the front lines and perhaps placing 1 infantry in each starting Chinese territory would improve things, without unbalancing the game.

    Improve things… yes I agree!

    The ‘beefing’ up of China would
    1). slow Japan down a bit
    2). offer some other strategic options for the allies

    Your China improvement suggestion then boils down to a NCM of the flying tiger (before Russias turn?) and 7 additional Chinese inf (1 inf in each starting territory).  Did you mean that extra chinese inf for every territory or 1 in only the unoccupied chinese starting territories?  Probably the former.

    I think this maybe a simplistic but effective China Mod for 1941 so I am just trying to confirm.

    Thanks!


  • I like your idea, a44bigdog, It could work. +1

    About 2 inf to Egypt, the problem is not the inbalance. It could be inbalanced and shift the advantage to allies indeed, it could be balanced, it could be not enough for allies. But my fear is that it could lead to the old boring KGF strat of always and still being inbalanced, in a sense or other. European theater is the only place we should not touch in 1941, it’s pretty balanced that area

    So my suggestions are bidding chinese infs or better, doing the same a44bigdog said  🙂 Fighter to Chingai maybe?


  • @souL:

    a +6 allies bid is WAY worse than a -25 for the Axis.  2 inf -> egy is pretty tough to overcome for the Axis.

    True, that’s the reason for I think the bid should allow a unit bid for both sides, not that extrange cash system in case of negative bid. Why bidding for axis after all? They play first, and the logic choice, if no consensus is still reached, is bidding for the team playing 2nd to let the loser of the bid start quicker


  • I was referring to just placing 1 Chinese infantry in the Chinese territories that do not start with one and at the start of the game at setup placing the Chinese fighter somewhere besides Yunnan. I have had opponents skip the Yunnan attack and they can get away with it as Japan because even though the Chinese have the fighter, they have virtually nothing else to attack with. I also welcome my opponents doing this, as I know China will have some offensive opportunities latter, although they will be small opportunities.

    That is also the only changes I would advocate making. I thing messing around with a bid and adding units will drastically change the game balance. As it stands right now Germany, if it wants to be aggressive must make several risky attacks that can have very negative influence on the game if they go bad. Japan is in a similar situation, while there are far fewer risky attacks to be made there are just so many of them that the odds are rather good of something going bad. While this tends to have less of a negative effect on the Axis it still hurts.

    I think concerns of AA50 turning into the same old same old like Revised is a false alarm. There are too many more variables, (more territories, and additional Countries) for this to be the case. I have no fears of taking the Allies in a competitive game and I do not use KGF. As a matter of fact I think KGF has become something like the KJF in Revised, in that it is mostly advisable in certain situations to exploit Axis bad luck or poor moves.


  • First time posting here.  Sorry if this idea has been considered and rejected earlier.
    My thought would be to use the same starting pieces for China as in 1942 AND have China play FIRST.  The turn order would be China, then Japan etc with the US last. 
    This would allow China to move the fighter out of the way and get a turn of reinforcements under its belt before getting hammered.

    Just a thought.


  • I personally still feel the game is balanced in a dice game, also, holding to revised strats will make you loose.  In a strong KGF Russia has to come out swinging to help lower German income to a reasonable level.  Also, protecting the US against Japan is easier than it looks if played properly.  One other important thing is the relationship of Germany and Italy in this game. The can opener threat can really stall Russia.  Also, the fact that Italy can easily stack around 10 units into france by turns 3 or 4 if allowed to gain a large income counteracts Germany only building 10 units a turn, as nearly all of those units get to swing at Russia.  Also of note is the extreme importance of holding Persia.  I have found that abandoning India and moving to Persia UK1, followed by Russian inf reinforcing turn 2 along with other allied units moving that direction threw Africa is the best way to hold Japan in the south.  You cannot loose Persia.  I also feel it is important in a KGF setup that the allies have two fleets, one to hold in northern europe, and one in the south.  This forces G/I to protect more territory than they can.

    It also seems KGF is the only viable strat, and any pacific strat is limited in scope to holding onto a few NOs and distracting Japan a bit.  There is no real way to bottle Japan up early before her income soars while containing G/I as well.  I wish it were not so, but it is.  Japan just plain has too many transports and carriers for the US to even try to face them alone, and no one can afford to help.


  • @bugoo:

    I personally still feel the game is balanced in a dice game,

    Also for a series of games? Axis will have Africa for several rnds in over 60% of all games.


  • Btw Func, I wouldn’t mind playing you in your -25 bid challenge if you play without tech.  With that setup I might not even ignore the pacific.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @bugoo:

    I personally still feel the game is balanced in a dice game, also, holding to revised strats will make you loose.  In a strong KGF Russia has to come out swinging to help lower German income to a reasonable level.  Also, protecting the US against Japan is easier than it looks if played properly.  One other important thing is the relationship of Germany and Italy in this game. The can opener threat can really stall Russia.  Also, the fact that Italy can easily stack around 10 units into france by turns 3 or 4 if allowed to gain a large income counteracts Germany only building 10 units a turn, as nearly all of those units get to swing at Russia.  Also of note is the extreme importance of holding Persia.  I have found that abandoning India and moving to Persia UK1, followed by Russian inf reinforcing turn 2 along with other allied units moving that direction threw Africa is the best way to hold Japan in the south.  You cannot loose Persia.  I also feel it is important in a KGF setup that the allies have two fleets, one to hold in northern europe, and one in the south.  This forces G/I to protect more territory than they can.

    It also seems KGF is the only viable strat, and any pacific strat is limited in scope to holding onto a few NOs and distracting Japan a bit.  There is no real way to bottle Japan up early before her income soars while containing G/I as well.  I wish it were not so, but it is.  Japan just plain has too many transports and carriers for the US to even try to face them alone, and no one can afford to help.

    Good post, this is pretty much how I feel about it.  The only thing I disagree with you on is the bid–I’d say that in a nt game, without some kind of bid Axis will have the advantage.  It may not necessarily have to be as high as 6, but probably at least 3.  With tech, it seems pretty even.

    Also, I’d add that the strat you are advocating is pretty close to the Revised KGF strat–ie 2 Allied fleets, focus on Germany, USA goes to Persia while UK goes thru Karelia…pretty much the same strategy…just different map dynamics and Russia has to attack.

    1 inf to Egypt changes the game fundamentally (ie the ipc difference if Germany doesn’t take Egpyt is massive)–if you add another inf to Karelia then the Allies probably have a slight advantage.  Without those bids, Allies need some dice to avoid getting beat up bad on G1.

    I’d like to play you sometime by forum though I’m sure I’d be at a disadvantage due to your experience.

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