UK ICs

@dondoolee:

@Pin:

Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).

Wait, what are these opening moves on the Phil.  I usually consider a T1 Jap attack on the Phil a mistake, so I am not that familiar with the attack.  How open are you kepping the mainland?  If this is the case, how long is India kept alive? What Chinese pieces are left alive?

Check any of the games where I’m the axis, my Japanese opening move is pretty standard, and I rarely deviate from it.  Attached is a map showing typical disposition of forces after J1 (actually slightly better than average as the attack on the Philippines had no losses).

Em-U505vChamps-AA50-41-01Cj.AAM

In this scenario, UK could safely put in an Australia IC rd1
Japan has 4 inf and 2 ftr to go against 3 inf,art, 2 ftr, bmr, aaa.
(UK DD stoops philipine units J2)

The complex might even survive more than 1 build:
USA can build to add 2 more ftrs + 2 ground units.

However Japan can bring alot more if they want.

……and there’s the problem

Japan has so much range with their power, it is very hard to get more than a foot hold anywhere, because then Japan just focuses on the gnat the allies has flown at Godzilla and smacks it.

That then becomes one expensive 1-2 turn delaying gnat.  PROBABLY not worth it to the allies.

@axis_roll:

In this scenario, UK could safely put in an Australia IC rd1
Japan has 4 inf and 2 ftr to go against 3 inf,art, 2 ftr, bmr, aaa.
(UK DD stoops philipine units J2)

The complex might even survive more than 1 build:
USA can build to add 2 more ftrs + 2 ground units.

However Japan can bring alot more if they want.

……and there’s the problem

Japan has so much range with their power, it is very hard to get more than a foot hold anywhere, because then Japan just focuses on the gnat the allies has flown at Godzilla and smacks it.

That then becomes one expensive 1-2 turn delaying gnat.  PROBABLY not worth it to the allies.

I tend to agree, which is why I’ve never placed one there, as Japan, I wouldn’t allow it survive for long, but I probably wouldn’t take it out J2.

Mollari: For some reason I can’t see the file. How much would Japan have to send at it? But If you had an 8 inf stack on bury/ an army from India/Jordan/ whatever is left in Egy and some Russians in China/ and maybe some US ships/planes comming from the pacific How pressed would Japan be?

@dondoolee:

Mollari: For some reason I can’t see the file. How much would Japan have to send at it? But If you had an 8 inf stack on bury/ an army from India/Jordan/ whatever is left in Egy and some Russians in China/ and maybe some US ships/planes comming from the pacific How pressed would Japan be?

I would ignore an 8 stack in Bury, a 7 stack in Manchuria I would take out.  If UK blocked forces from Philippines with a dd in sz48 I would Ignore Australia and go after India, forces from TJ can’t get to India before UK2.  There would be nothing left in Egypt, Germany and Italy would have taken those out T1.  Russian forces in China, no biggie, it’s no advantage to Russia and they are forces not on the front with Germany.

Here’s the Text print out:

***** Country: 1 *****

*** Baltic Seazone (BAL/Z5)
1 Trn

*** North Sea (NOR/Z6)
1 Cru
1 Sub

*** Black Sea Seazone (BLA/Z16)
1 Trn

*** Finland (Fin)
4 Inf
1 Ftr

*** Germany (Ger)
1 IC
7 Inf
1 AA
1 Ftr

*** France (Fra)
5 Inf
2 Ftr
1 Arm

*** Bulgaria/Romania (Bul)
1 Ftr

*** East Poland (Epl)
2 Inf
1 Arm
1 Flag
1 Art

*** Baltic States (Bst)
1 Flag
3 Inf
4 Arm
1 Art

*** Ukraine (Ukr)
1 Art
1 Flag

*** Egypt (Egy)
1 Flag
2 Arm
1 Art

*** Libya (Lib)
1 Bmr

*** Ger - Fra+Den+Pol+Cze+Bul+Ger
1 Flag

*** Ger - 3 of Epl,Ukr,Bst,Euk,Bel,Ukr
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
47 Flag

*** Victory Cities
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
1 Flag

***** Country: 2 *****

*** Karelia S.S.R. (Kar)
1 AA
1 Art
11 Inf
1 IC
1 Arm

*** Belorussia (Bel)
1 Inf

*** Eastern Ukraine (Euk)
1 Inf

*** Caucasus (Cau)
1 AA
4 Inf
1 IC

*** Russia (Mos)
3 Arm
1 AA
1 IC
4 Inf

*** Archangelsk (Arc)
1 Art
3 Inf

*** Urals (Ura)
1 Inf

*** Evenki National Okrug (Eve)
1 Inf

*** Yakut S.S.R. (Yak)
4 Inf

*** Stanovoj Chrebet (Stc)
3 Inf

*** USSR - Arc + no Allied on Red Areas
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
31 Flag

*** Victory Cities
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
1 Flag

***** Country: 3 *****

*** Burma Seazone (BSZ/Z37)
2 Ftr
1 AC

*** Java Sea (JAV/Z38)
1 Trn

*** Borneo Seazone (BOR/Z49)
1 Trn

*** Philippines Islands Seazone (SUL/Z50)
2 Trn
1 BB

*** East Chinese Sea (ECH/Z61)
1 Trn
1 Cru

*** Sea of Japan (SJA/Z62)
2 AC
2 Trn
4 Ftr

*** Japan (Jpn)
1 IC
4 Inf
1 AA
1 Art

*** Iwo Jima (Iwo)
1 Inf

*** French Indochina (Fic)
2 Ftr

*** Kwangtung (Kwa)
1 Art
1 Flag

*** East Indies (Sum)
2 Inf
1 Flag

*** Borneo (Brn)
2 Inf
1 Flag

*** Philippine Islands (Phi)
3 Inf
1 Arm
1 Flag

*** Fukien (Fuk)
2 Inf
1 Flag

*** Kiangsu (Kia)
1 Inf
1 Flag

*** Manchuria (Man)
1 Flag

*** Suiyuan (Sui)
2 Inf
1 Flag

*** Yunnan (Yun)
2 Inf
1 Flag

*** Jap - Fic+Man+Kia
1 Flag

*** Jap - 4 of Kwa,Sum,Bor,Phi,Ngu,Sol
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
41 Flag

*** Nation Overview
1 Flag

***** Country: 4 *****

*** Greenland Seazone (GRN/Z2)
1 Trn
1 BB

*** East Canada Seazone (ECS/Z9)
1 Trn
1 Des

*** South East Australian SZ (SEA/Z41)
1 Trn
1 Des

*** Eastern Canada (Eca)
1 Arm

*** United Kingdom (Gbr)
2 Inf
1 Bmr
1 Art
2 Ftr
1 IC
1 AA
1 Arm

*** Union of South Africa (Saf)
2 Inf

*** Trans-Jordan (Trj)
2 Inf

*** India (Ind)
1 AA
3 Inf
1 Art

*** Burma (Bur)
1 Inf

*** Australia (Aus)
3 Inf
1 AA
1 Art

*** Western Canada (Wca)
1 Inf

*** Nation Overview
43 Flag

***** Country: 5 *****

*** Central Mediterranean SZ (CMD/Z14)
2 Cru
1 Trn
1 BB

*** Italy (Ita)
1 Ftr
1 Arm
1 Art
1 AA
1 IC
1 Inf

*** Balkans (Blk)
1 Arm
2 Inf

*** Libya (Lib)
2 Inf

*** Ita - Ita+Blk+Alg+Lib+WMD+CMD+EMD
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
10 Flag

***** Country: 6 *****

*** Eastern US Ocean (EOC/Z10)
1 Des
1 Trn

*** Easter Islands Seazone (EIS/Z44)
1 Ftr
1 Des
1 AC

*** Eastern United States (Eus)
1 Inf
1 Bmr
1 Art
1 IC
1 Ftr
1 AA

*** Central United States (Cus)
1 Inf

*** Western United States (Wus)
1 Ftr
1 IC
1 AA
1 Inf
1 Bmr

*** Alaska (Ala)
1 Inf

*** Hawaiian Islands (Haw)
1 Ftr
1 Inf

*** Midway Island (Mid)
1 Inf

*** Wake Island (Wak)
1 Inf

*** USA - 3 of Haw,Mid,Wak,Sol
1 Flag

*** USA - Wus+Cus+Eus
1 Flag

*** Nation Overview
40 Flag

***** Country: 7 *****

*** Hupeh (Hup)
1 Inf

Thanks a lot, I’ll take a look at it

1)Why isn’t the US des/car/fig in SZ 44 listed?  Is that the only miss?
2)How did you clear Egy w/ Germany while sening the Tran to the black sea, and from the looks of it w/o the bomber?

Why is no one mentioning Norway?

In AAR I prefer a USA factory in Nor, but in AA50 Norway seems destined for the UK.  UK can afford the factory, and it enables the production of 11 land units per turn.  This justifies creating a 6 transport fleet–-that’s a lot of potential power for Germany to contend with.

India seems implausible against a good Japan without massive Russian support.  Japan just has too many transports and fighters at the start.

I like the Egypt idea though and will try that if given the opportunity.

@dondoolee:

1)Why isn’t the US des/car/fig in SZ 44 listed?  Is that the only miss?
2)How did you clear Egy w/ Germany while sening the Tran to the black sea, and from the looks of it w/o the bomber?

1.  I show it listed as the Easter Islands Seazone (EIS/Z44)
2.  Black Sea and E. Med are mislabled.  Bomber wasn’t sent to Egypt, it’s in Norway.

@Zhukov44:

Why is no one mentioning Norway?

In AAR I prefer a USA factory in Nor, but in AA50 Norway seems destined for the UK.  UK can afford the factory, and it enables the production of 11 land units per turn.  This justifies creating a 6 transport fleet–-that’s a lot of potential power for Germany to contend with.

India seems implausible against a good Japan without massive Russian support.  Japan just has too many transports and fighters at the start.

I like the Egypt idea though and will try that if given the opportunity.

I’ve done a UK Norway IC, the draw back is funneling through Karelia, it deprives Russia of their NO, so you have to build up a fleet first to ferry troops, so it takes time before a Norway IC is viable.

@bugoo:

Not saying I would do it but, here is a possibility against that open.

UK blocks with DD and builds IC in aussie.  Retreats all but burma inf to persia + sends down bomber as well (optional).

US sends 2 figs, 1 bomb to aussie.  Possibly sends AC + DD to SZ, builds another AC, bombers, whatever.  Possibly sends 2nd bomber to Sol Islands.

Now yes, japan can take india, but then bad thing happens.  UK retakes on there turn and US sinks Jap boats (min 2 figs 1 bomb vs 1 loaded AC, max 3 figs, 2 bombs).  This can be further compounded with russians in persia.

Its not great, but it will hurt japan’s options.  More UK troops can be left in India as well to draw more Japan trannies if Russia is willing to reinforce Persia.  Works much better though when Egypt holds as you get an armor and a fig to use with this.

Now as far as norway, in most of my games UK doesnt have the funds to build 11 troops a turn and keep there fleet afloat, i prefer it for a US factory to dump boats directly into SZ 5/6 to backup the UK fleet.  Also, as far as the UK in Karelia, sometimes it is worth it to shuck UK troops to hold Kar while russia holds in the south against the Axis, as depriving G of 7 IPCs is worth costing the russians 5, not to mention saving russian troops is always a plus.  I enjoy using Karelia as a posion pill where russia stacks up 10+ units to get killed by germany and the UK sweeps in from SZ 2 to crush what is left of the german stack, as well as grabbing up Finland and letting the US get Norway on turn 2.

I still haven’t yet play tested Mollari’s opening moves, but troops meeting up in Persia is my usuall whenever I use the aussie IC (along with the bomber and whatever survives EGY).  It can cause a decent bother to Japan.  And I don’t know if I consider the aussie IC an excllent strat, but so far the most viable UK IC strat other than MAYBE SAF.

@dondoolee:

@Pin:

Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).

Wait, what are these opening moves on the Phil.  I usually consider a T1 Jap attack on the Phil a mistake, so I am not that familiar with the attack.  How open are you kepping the mainland?  If this is the case, how long is India kept alive? What Chinese pieces are left alive?

ap 1

buy
1tran
1dd
save 2

cm
2fgt z61 > z35 (calling CV z61 > z37)
2fgt z57 > z56
2fgt z57 > z53
1dd z51 > z53
1inf car 1inf Oki > Phi via 1tran z51
2inf Car > Sum walkin
1inf 1art z61 > Bur
2inf z61 > Brn walkin
1inf 1arm Jap > Phi
2inf Fic > Yun
1inf Fic > Kwa
1fgt For > Yun
1fgt Jap > Kwa
1fgt Man > Yun
3inf Man > Sui
3inf Kia > Fuk

this was a standard Jap 1 opening for me, i do the Bur becouse Rus1 sent 2inf to Per making a setup for a possible T1 UK IC. Also Egy was taken, if that fgt was alive i might have gone a little different to make 110% sure i could take india even with that fgt there.

If you are worried about the dd blocking, just skip the cru to z50 and ncm it to z48. and you still have huge punch on Aus turn2. Without the Phi forces you should at have least 4inf 1art 2fgt punch on Aus turn2, 1more inf if it survived Bur, and Cru if you also used that against Bur aswell, i just prefer having it in z50 or 48 to make sure you can force US to evacuate Pacific turn2 if US didnt build navy in Pacific turn1.

link to game: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14120.15

So far, I still can’t quite pull the trigger on taking Australia T3 or T4 with Japan (even with 6 fighters and really threatining and holding back the US/UK Navy).  That being said in the 3 games I played, I have been able to really try Japan up in spectacular fashion, but it becomes irrelevant as it still swells up into the great Satan somewhere between turn 6-9.  All the while the allies look like they do good on Germany, but not quite good enough to kill it by the time Japan turns into the unstopable juggernaut.  It is starting to look like the Allies can not afford to give Japan this much attention, though I am still curious about this IC and more importantly the moves done w/o the IC to tie up Japan.  Also I am starting to wonder, why not just use America and have Australia as “home base” for them, the Brits could build an IC late in the game if the opportunity presents itself.  This is only 3 games though.  It is almost as if the axis recoverd 3 times from the brink of disaster and still win.