• What is everyone’s opinion on a destroyer in the Baltic. The reasoning is thus:
    If you build nothing the UK can sink your fleet with minimal resources. This allows them to start landing troops in Russia with disturbing speed, possibly as early as turn 2 if they want.
    If the fleet lives though the UK can’t really build in the Channel unless they go heavy navy or Germany gets good value for its fleet. They’ll have to build a to build elswhere and move with the Americans to approach the Baltic with an invincible fleet and sink it the Baltic fleet on the next turn.
    Once they do this though the Baltic fleet is doomed. If Germany has an AC they can stick fighters on it and kill another ship or two but then the fighters are dead. If your not going to store fighters on your AC why not just get a destroyer instead? You get the same result and save 4 IPC. That’s a free artillery or art/arm swap for an inf/ftr. The destroyer even has more attack than the AC if UK declares bring it on.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Let the brits come.  I have decent odds of taking down all their fighters and bombers at the loss of my baltic fleet.  :P

  • A DST is insufficient to really even slow down UK’s destruction of the Baltic Fleet if the UK builds FIGs on UK1 (a not uncommon move, it very likely with a DST purchase on G1).

    It also fails to free up much cash for land units over an AC purchase (1 ART).

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I think he’s talking about protecting the DST in SZ 5, not building another one.

    Honestly, my opinion is either go +80 IPC in Navy in the first two rounds, or let the Brits have a shot at your SZ 5 fleet on UK 1.  It’s probably your best chance of the game to kill some British fighters at little cost to Germany. (Little opportunity cost, not financial cost.)

  • Actually I think he is talking about building another one in the Baltic. That’s what he did in his game vs Tim in the Games in Progress forum.  IR, just buy an AC. You can get 3 times as much defence with that. The AC and 2 ftrs provides good protection.

  • Destroyers are pretty much useless.

  • @Lucifer:

    Destroyers are pretty much useless.

    yes, for $4 more, you have a much more effective fleet purchase in the A/C.

    Destroyers are overpriced at $12, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

  • Destroyers are of too limited use for the 12 IPCs you spent on it. If you build nothing for the Baltic, you should immediately run it away because it does nothing for you where it stands, and pray it survives or takes out lots of airforce on its way out.

    If you do build something for the Baltic, good things to try are one carrier or 2 tran, and also try linking the navy by sending the med fleet west on G1 (use bid to take out Africa). Linking may not be the best way to go, but you need to practice it and understand how to use it and how to counter it, or you will be surprised by it.

    Simply defending the Baltic with a carrier isn’t too helpful either, the Allies can simply bottle you up there with combined defenses until the US fields enough fig to disable it.

    I remain pretty unclear on the whole matter of whether or not it’s worth building navy with the Germans. It seems to be very give or take if the Allies know the correct response to all the naval situations. If they don’t know the counters to the German navy/link, you can score some cheap wins that way, but when they wisen up, it’s not that difficult because it lets Africa go back to the Allies with little effort.

    But if you build no navy, it just means the Allies get their shipping in gear faster, and you have more land forces as well, so it’s not like you get a clear advantage in either situation. Build one carrier + link, and the Allies will be screwing around for a round or 2 with your navy, but they get Africa and you have 5 less inf to defend/push.

  • If you plan on linking fleets or suiciding against the allied fleet both the carrier costs more and does less. I suppose two transports would be the other consideration but the destroyer costs less.

    As for being bottled up in the Baltic and then sunk, isn’t that better than Uk landing in eastern on turn 2?

  • @Infantry:

    As for being bottled up in the Baltic and then sunk, isn’t that better than Uk landing in eastern on turn 2?

    Eastern Europe rnd 2??

    Thats too early to lose an important TT, which is easy for Germany to defend, even for a newb like me  :-P

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t think there’s much risk of England in E. Europe on UK 2.

    As for fleet, I’m still wondering if massive fleet > little fleet < no fleet.

    Of course, if you have BB/SS/TRN in SZ 13 and the Allies go for fleet unification in SZ 12, you may not need MASSIVE fleet.

  • What prevents the UK from parking a BB a fully loaded AC and 3 tran in the Baltic on turn 2?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    The thought of 2 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer, 5 (or 6) fighters and a bomber attacking it on Germany 2.

  • If you plan on linking fleets or suiciding against the allied fleet both the carrier costs more and does less. I suppose two transports would be the other consideration but the destroyer costs less.

    You’re sort of right. It costs more and does less - for suicide purposes. But for linking purposes, a carrier + 2 fig is vastly more powerful defensively than 2 tran. If you build 2 tran + link, the UK could easily start with a 3 fig buy and sink you by themselves. Or even if they didn’t sink you by themselves, they would do a mighty strafe and the US could easily follow up. But with a car + 2 fig, it becomes very uneasy for the Allies to spend so little effort to sink you.

  • :-P
    Jennifer, if you don’t protect the Baltic fleet then there won’t be fleet to go with those 6 ftr 1 bomber, in which case UK might trade their fleet for every single German plane if Germany. Ergo UK can land in Eastern on turn 2 without worry of retaliation. That is why I want to buy the bare minimum needed to insure the fleet survives until Germany 2.

  • Bean, a unified fleet w/des buy is capable of being attacked by UK 1 bom 4 ftr 1 BB 2 tran and trading with the attacking forces. Not as well as an AC plus 2 ftrs, which wins the battle but still a job well done. No reasonable naval buy will result in a fleet that can withstand a dedicated American fleet sinker. Is preventing a UK attack worth the extra 4 IPC when it is a favorable trade for Germany. (German fleet whose job is to buy time for all of UK’s early resources in the region)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Proper purchase for England, via a large German build up is:

    Submarine >> 8 IPC
    2 Fighters >> 20 IPC

    This allows you to hit the Germans with SS, 2 TRN, BB, 4 FIG, 1 BMB (5 FIG if the SZ 35 FIG went to W. Russia on UK 1.)

    Each round that goes on, just add another submarine or two.  Submarines are great for sinking carrier defended fleets because you hit navy only with them.  The fighters, thus, cannot be targetted and you get the juicier targets like destroyers and carriers and can submerge when it’s down to just fighters.

  • A Baltic Fleet alive beyond UK1 is not defending Eastern.  It is defending the entire Atlantic coast, especially Norway.

    The problem for the Allies with a living Baltic Fleet is that it can be used as fodder for a massive Luftwaffe attack on the Allied fleets.  Remove the Baltic Fleet, and an air only attack on the Allied navy is highly unlikely.

    With a dead Baltic Fleet, UK can land with impugnity in Norway on UK2.  With a living Baltic Fleet, they are delayed at least a turn (meaning 6 to 8 land units less in Europe for Germany to contend with, plus no USA reinforce).

    By spending $16 for an AC, I defer about 10 units into Europe; making them arrive 1 turn later or more (usually 2-3 turns).  That is a significant decrease in Allied pressure during the earliest phases of the game when Germany needs to be hammering Russia and depleting UK’s income.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Or the Allies let you use your fleet for fodder.

    Honestly, I prefer to land in Russia and build more in SZ 2.  Then, if you move to cleave me in twain, I can attack from two directions for one round and retreat all to one sea zone or the other.

    Then I get to strafe AND you are denied the use of your Luftwaffe (except the ones on the carrier) in hitting my fleet back.

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