A simplified dogfight and SBR House Rule for 1942 2nd Edition


  • 2017 '16

    For those who ever want to play a 1942.2 game with some elements which can simulate air-to-air combat between Fighters or against Bombers, here is the simplest way I can think of.
    This House Rule will provides a way to figure that:

    • Fighters are having dogfight against other Fighters and Bombers and not just hitting grounds targets (as casualties chosen by owner’s) acting like a shield.

    • That Strategic Bombers are weak and vulnerable against Fighters in air-to-air combat.

    • But Strategic Bombers have a heavy payload of bombs against ground targets.

    There is no special phase in this HR and the dogfight in SBR is consistent with the air-to-air combat value of Fighter and Bomber units.

    FIGHTER
    Attack 3
    Defense 4
    Move 4
    Cost 10
    A Destroyer must be present to hit submarine.
    Every time on attack or on defense a “1” is rolled, then an enemy’s plane (either Fighter or Bomber) must be taken as casualty.

    In Strategic Bombing Raid Escort and Interception
    Attack 1
    Defense 1

    STRATEGIC BOMBER
    Attack 4
    Defense 1
    Move 6
    Cost 12
    A Destroyer must be present to hit submarine.
    Can make a Strategic Bombing Raid against Industrial Complex.

    **In Strategic Bombing Raid Escort and Interception
    Attack 0

    Damage on IC: 1D6+2**

    This means that during an SBR, all attacking bombers have no way to kill any intercepting fighters defending the Industrial Complex.
    This also imply that the attacker must bring escorting Fighters to hit them.
    However, the damage now are fiercier than OOB (D6) when a bomber reach an IC: +2 bonus.

    SBR phases:
    1- Attacker brings Strategic Bombers and escorting Fighters on an SBR mission.
    2- Defender choose to intercept or not with the Fighter units on the IC territory.
    3- If there is any intercepting Fighter, all Fighters roll attack and defense @1. Remove Fighters and Bombers casualties.
    4- Surviving Strategic Bombers now submit to IC’s Anti Aircraft Fire @1 for each bombers. Removes Bombers casualties.
    5- Each surviving Bomber roll damage at 1D6+2. Apply to the IC by putting chips under it.
    Maximum damage still applied: up to twice the territory value in IPCs.

    In the next post I will provide some statistical comparison between this SBR method, the Triple A SBR and the OOB SBR with escort provided in the rulebook.

    You will see that there is some statistical differences and that even if in this SBR House Rule bombers cannot hit any Fighters in the air-to-air phase of the SBR the increase damage of bombing on IC makes for a more incentive strategy than the others two methods.
    In addition, using this SBR HR will clearly show how Fighters are superior in air-to-air combat.

    I hope you will find this SBR HR interesting and somewhat simple by keeping a consistent combat value for both Fighter and Bomber in regular combat (which include an air battle with the “1” roll by Fg units).


    Wild Bill merits some credits:

    Dog fights would be cool, but very costly especially at full values (just think of how dog fights have cut down SBR and it uses lower values). As you said you could force air to air combat to knock out your opponents defending planes. The flying tiger was a good example, but would still get destroyed even if there was ground units involved because Japan could overwhelm it, in even a one round dog fight. China needs the final battle to go several rounds so the tiger can roll 2-3-4 times to take out some Japanese ground units.

    The battle for Moscow would be another major blow to the defender. Imagine a 1-2 punch with Japan or Italy forcing the Russian/allied fighters to a dual to weaken the overall defense of the Russian capital, then the Germans hammer the ground units. The ground game is balanced partially on having defending fighters rolling higher, and surviving till the end. If you allow the attacker to call those defending planes out into a dog fight, you have taken away what was a defensive advantage and given a huge advantage to the attacker IMO.

    With that said, I agree with you that it is silly for the fighters to be the last unit standing in a ground battle and you can’t call them out to some degree. We have tinkered with some stuff in the past. One of those house rules were to have the ground battles as normal, but if a fighter or tac rolled a 1 (attacker or def) that casualty had to be applied to an air unit. If no air on the other side, then to a tank and so on (higher ranking units). In sea battles it was similar (1’s rolled by ftr/tac applied to air units, then to capital ships ect…). That way some of your air hits went to something other then infantry or destroyers. I will say in sea battles sometimes you would rather take out a destroyer then air (scrambles or subs involved) so it could back fire if you use this at sea. We have also just allowed the person who rolled the “1” with an air unit to choose the opponents casualties (targeting). As an option you could allow attacking strat bmrs that roll a 1 to choose causalities as well. We have also at times given defending carriers AA defense at sea allowing them to roll as normal each round, but if they hit (2 or less) it goes to attacking air units.

    I’m not saying that I’m against some kind of air combat, but I think something would have to change in the game mechanics to incorporate a full fledged dog fight. I would also be interested in Larry’s view on this subject, and some of his own house rules or test runs involving air. I know that initially the tac bomber was given target capabilities (but that was scrapped).

    http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18642&p=66073&hilit=air+retreat#p66073


  • 2017 '16

    Comparison of this HR with Triple A SBR for 1942.2 and below with the OOB SBR optional escort and intercept rules of 1942 2nd edition

    HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 D1 : damage 1D6+2                                          Triple A SBR for 1942.2: all planes A1 D1, damage 1D6

    1 St Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor                                                                            1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                                                                    Sum: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 St Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1                                                                    1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
    Sum: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC. damage/SBR run                                                              Sum: +3.69 - 3.667 = + 0.023 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 St Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1                                                                  1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC. damage/SBR run                                                              Sum: + 2.025 - 5.056 = - 3.031 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1                     1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 6.123 - 5.334 = + 0.789 IPC damage/SBR run                                                              Sum: +6.155 - 5.33 = + 0.825 IPC damage/SBR run

    2 St Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1                                                      2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 7.639 - 7.334 = + 0.305 IPCs damage/SBR run                                                            Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 Fighter A1 and 1 St Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1                                1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: + 6.250 - 3.667 = + 2.583 IPC damage/SBR run                                                              Sum: + 5.973 - 3.667 = + 2.306 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1                                            2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: + 8.403 - 5.666 = + 2.737 IPCs damage/SBR run                                                            Sum: +8.403 - 5.666 = + 2.737 IPCs damage/StB
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34118.msg1311986#msg1311986


    OOB SBR rules for 1942.2: Fg and StB attack @1 first strike and Fg defend @2
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6
    Sum: + 2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 first strike against 1 Fg D2
    Sum: + 3.8 - 4.8 = - 1 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 / damage 1D6
    Sum: + 3.071 - 7.185 = - 4.114 IPC. damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: + 6.018 - 7.555 = - 1.537 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +7.547 - 9.556 = - 2.009 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 5.973 - 5.159 = + 0.814 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 8.214 - 6.315 = + 1.899 IPCs damage/SBR run

    There is many statistical tables in this thread to compare with various SBR system.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34118.msg1311386#msg1311386


  • 2017 '16

    Another point is that this special “1” for Fighter units will indirectly provide an incentive for doing SBR with Bombers when they have no escorting Fighter cover.

    The reason is simply that on any regular combat which is longer than two combat rounds, all enemy Fighters will get a second, a third, a fourth chance, and so on, to hit the bomber with a lucky “1” roll.
    While, during SBR, there is only 1 combat round of air-to-air combat and the AA gun against the bomber.

    So, in this HR, even at 12 IPCs and making D6+2 damage on IC (better than older version at 15 IPCs and 1D6 damage on IC), an attacking Strategic Bomber is far more vulnerable against defending Fighters and cannot hide behind a stack of ground units.


  • 2017 '16

    When comparing the two most rewarding SBR rules (this House rule and the Triple A SBR), you can see on a statistical POV that in this HR SBR, against 2 Fighters, it is better to bring an escort cover with 1 Bombers than sending 2 Strategic Bombers. The odds are doubled (+.789 against +.305).

    While the Triple A method shows the opposite: it is worst to have 1 Strat Bomber and 1 Fighter escort (+.825) instead of 2 Bombers (+.861).

    HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 D1 : damage 1D6+2                                          Triple A SBR for 1942.2: all planes A1 D1, damage 1D6

    1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1                     1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 6.123 - 5.334 = + 0.789 IPC damage/SBR run                                                              Sum: +6.155 - 5.33 = + 0.825 IPC damage/SBR run

    2 St Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1                                                      2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 7.639 - 7.334 = + 0.305 IPCs damage/SBR run                                                            Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPC damage/SBR run

    Intuitively, I just find this HR SBR have a more historical feel.
    And shows that there is more danger for bombers when there is no escorting Fighter and, on the reverse side, there is no great danger for intercepting Fighters when only Bombers are present.

    But, if the defender have no interceptors, this becomes a big bombing fest. Hence, an incentive to put Fgs to defend Industrial Complex.



  • Your simplified dogfight gives headache 😄


  • 2017 '16

    If you read past the opening post means that you really want a headache…
    Or you just too curious and want to see why it could works…
    😄



  • Both…
    And i’m curious to know if you ever try one of your idea… :evil:


  • 2017 '16

    This one, I played it a few times two years ago. Not a real game breaker IMO.

    But what I prefer is this dedicated Fighter combined with Tactial Bomber (from Global) in a 1942.2 setting.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34224.msg1317032#msg1317032
    (Also developped, for the first time in this thread: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33334.msg1268768#msg1268768)

    Where bombers (both StB and TcB) are hitting ground units first (as usual) while Fighters hit any aircraft first, then other units available.
    In Naval Combat, cheap Fighter A1 first strike D2 M4 (7 IPCs) have a lesser combat value than Destroyers A2 D2 M2 Anti-Sub (8 IPCs) and are most often used as fodder than before (at 10 IPCs). As it should IMO.

    I just find this order of casualty more consistent with my view of WWII Naval battle in PTO where many planes were lost against each other fleets while there was less direct combat between warships.

    Also, Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3-4 M4 (at 10 IPCs) (getting @4 when paired to a Fg or when there is no enemy’s plane) or even Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 (12 IPCs) are more valuable and, after the first rounds, DDs becomes the next main casualties.
    However, surviving Fgs on 1 side becomes precious because any hit override the regular casualty order and pass by Destroyer to get to these bombers (with high attack value), making them more vulnerable.

    It gives really the feel of aerial battle without adding any special phase (except letting attacking Fgs roll preemptive strike @1). 🙂

    Played this twice till now and hope to do more to get a wider perspective.

    For sure, I won’t return to ordinary Fighter unit A3 D4 M4 C10 making only regular rolls, unless I found a real balance issue.

    I should add it was funny to fully load each sculpt of Fleet Carrier with 2 Fgs and 1 TcB.
    Look is great but it gives also more range than simply empty, half full, full. Now their is much more variability to load carriers according to strategy or casualty of war.
    Empty, one third (1TcB or 1 Fg) , 2 third (1 TcB & 1 Fg or 2 Fgs), full (2 TcBs or 1TcB & 2 Fgs or 3 Fgs).


    On SBR, our group agree to do same as OOB 1942.2 but StB A1 unescorted by Fg, damage are D6+2.
    Till now, there was no big StBs Raid of many units. So I can just tell that most of the time players buy only a few StBs or having more important targets for them than ICs, even if the damage are as high as in G40.

    1942.2 SBR House Rules :
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2
    Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
    Sum: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC. damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +3.704 - 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: + 7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.48 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR run


    I forgot to add that because Fgs were 3 IPCs cheaper, I reduced the cost of Anti-Air Artillery to 3 IPCs.
    Germany bought 2 or 3 of them (since it was at the same price as Inf) but never hit anything (against planes) and finished as fodder to protect Infantry rolling @2 on defense.

    Cheaper fighter were less dramatic to lose and cheap AAA weren’t game changer either.
    Retrospectively, it would have been better for Germany to buy Infantry instead.


  • 2017 '16

    @Baron:

    If you read past the opening post means that you really want a headache…
    Or you just too curious and want to see why it could works…
    😄

    @crusaderiv:

    Both…

    Since I developped a statistical way to evaluate the effectiveness of a given set of parameters for SBR, I was compelled to produce the numbers.

    Mainly, intuitively it doesn’t sound right to give no attack factor for Strategic bomber (Attack 0) in dogfight.
    Making them defenseless against Fighter appears to be unfair. But with an increase damage D6+2 it changes everything.
    Even though, without any number, it is hard to judge if it can be balance or not (an improvement for the attacker or better for the defender) compared to another SBR method such as Triple A, all @1 and 1D6 damage.

    That’s the meaning of the first + (combined damage done by attacker on Fg and IC) and the second - (destruction of StB and Fg escort) to get a sum.
    Positive it is in favor of the attacker, negative it is in favor of the defender.

    Example: this SBR HR                                                                  Triple A SBR
    1 St Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1                            1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
    Sum: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC. damage/SBR run                      Sum: +3.69 - 3.667 = + 0.023 IPC damage/SBR run

    So, on a 1:1 Strategic Bomber against 1 Fighter, there is a small advantage toward attacker with my method.

    The risk to be destroyed by the interceptor is the same. But the average damage on IC are a bit higher.
    On the other part, there is no danger for the interceptor since the attacker doesn’t bring any Fighter.
    Hence, the interceptor will survive. But, if it didn’t get a hit the damage on IC could be much higher (if IC’s AAA didn’t roll a snake eye).

    So, if you compared the .152 IPC vs .023 IPC, odds are seven times (7x) better in this new HR.
    It seems big, just because the number are near 0.00, which is where the odds are even for both sides.

    In fact, compared to a raid without interceptor (+2.583 IPC), it is 15x lower or 6x compared to + 0.917 IPC/SBR run.

    Hope, it is a bit more understandable.



  • Hope, it is a bit more understandable.
    Yes…with 2 asprine,some water and a poutine….


  • 2017 '16

    Another way to play a 1942.2 game with some elements which can simulate air-to-air combat between Fighters or against Bombers are as follow.
    This House Rule keep the same principles as the opening post system:

    • Fighters are having dogfight against other Fighters and Bombers and not just hitting grounds targets (as casualties chosen by owner’s) acting like a shield.

    • That Strategic Bombers are weak and vulnerable against Fighters in air-to-air combat.

    • But Strategic Bombers have a heavy payload of bombs against ground targets.

    There is no special phase in this HR and the dogfight in SBR is consistent with the air-to-air combat value of Fighter and Bomber units.
    However, it implies a few changes on combat values and cost of these units:

    FIGHTER
    Attack 2
    Defense 2
    Move 4
    Cost 7
    Always hit enemy’s aircrafts first, if any available.
    A Destroyer must be present to hit submarine.

    Strategic Bombing Raid Escort and Interception
    Attack 2
    Defense 2

    STRATEGIC BOMBER
    Attack 4
    Defense 1
    Move 6
    Cost 12 (Optional: reduced to 10 IPCs)
    A Destroyer must be present to hit submarine.
    Can make a Strategic Bombing Raid against Industrial Complex.
    OPTIONAL: Every time on attack a “1” is rolled, then an enemy’s plane (either Fighter or Bomber) must be taken as casualty.

    **Strategic Bombing Raid Escort and Interception
    Attack 1

    Damage on IC: 1D6+2**

    1942.2 FLEET CARRIER
    Attack 0
    Defense 3
    Move 2
    Cost 14
    Hit: 2 hits
    Carry 3 planes (Fighters)
    Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
    Carriers are repaired at the beginning of the Power’s turn (Purchase and repair damage phase),
    unlike Battleship which are repaired at the end the player’s turn (Placement phase).

    ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
    Attack 0
    Defense 0
    Move NCM1
    Cost 4
    1 hit
    Up to 3 preemptive defense @1 against up to 3 planes, whichever the lesser,(as OOB AAA) and
    fire regular defense @1 against up to 1 plane on the following combat rounds.
    Stop any blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.


    Additional units are added:

    For every 2 Fighter units, you can add on the board 1 new Fighter unit.
    USSR gets 1 additional Fighter unit. (1 Fg is put in Russia.)
    UK gets 2 additional Fighter units. (1 Fg is put on Carrier, 1 Fighter is put in UK.)
    USA gets 3 additional Fighter units.  (1 Fg is put on Carrier, 1 Fg is put in Western USA and 1 is put in Eastern USA.)
    Optional: You can add an AAA in China instead of a Fighter in Eastern USA.

    Germany gets 3 additional Fighter units. (1 Fg is put in Northwestern Europe, 1 Fg is put in Germany, 1 Fg is put in Poland.)
    Japan gets 3 additional Fighter units. (2 Fgs are put on each Carriers, and 1 Fg is put in Manchuria.)


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