DEI Question



  • What ruleset are people looking at that states Anzac/UK can land aircraft on the DEI without taking control of them?

    I’m trying to determine of Japan can accomplish the same thing.



  • @Spendo02:

    What ruleset are people looking at that states Anzac/UK can land aircraft on the DEI without taking control of them?

    I’m trying to determine of Japan can accomplish the same thing.

    The game mechanic intrinsic in all rule sets is that a plane belonging to a power that is not neutral is always free to land those planes on friendly territories (assuming they started the turn under friendly control) or carriers; hence the UK and Anzac are free to use Dutch territories as landing spaces as the Dutch territories begin the game friendly to the Allied Nations.  The only difference in how Dutch territories behave is that the UK and Anzac can take control of them by noncombat moving a land unit to them.  Otherwise they act exactly the same as any other friendly territory.

    Japan can’t land there.  Japan and the Dutch aren’t friendly, even if Japan hasn’t declared war on UK/ANZAC.



  • So when it comes to landing planes, one should think of Dutch territories having the exact same relationship to UK and ANZAC as USA has to UK and ANZAC.



  • Do they function in the same manner then as the pro-allied neutrals?  Can UK then land its aircraft on Greece?



  • @Spendo02:

    Do they function in the same manner then as the pro-allied neutrals?  Can UK then land its aircraft on Greece?

    No; the DEI are an allied territory with the special function that they can be freely taken by UK/ANZAC (or anyone else if they can get there  :mrgreen:)


  • Customizer

    @Spendo02:

    Do they function in the same manner then as the pro-allied neutrals?  Can UK then land its aircraft on Greece?

    No. Greece, Yugoslavia, Persia and Brazil are neutral. While they are Pro-Allied, they are still neutral and must be treated as such until Allied land units move in on the NCM and turn those territories into full-fledged Allied territories.
    As for the Dutch territories, they are actually Allied to the UK, which is why you can land UK/ANZAC planes on them. That being the case, I personally don’t understand why those territories don’t start out with their incomes part of UK India or ANZAC incomes but have to have land units move there in the NCM to gain that income for UK India or ANZAC. It seems to me like the IPCs for Sumatra, Java and Celebes should already be part of India or ANZAC incomes if they are Allied already. Having UK or ANZAC moving troops there just seems like an extra, unnecessary move.



  • @knp7765:

    @Spendo02:

    Do they function in the same manner then as the pro-allied neutrals? Â Can UK then land its aircraft on Greece?

    No. Greece, Yugoslavia, Persia and Brazil are neutral. While they are Pro-Allied, they are still neutral and must be treated as such until Allied land units move in on the NCM and turn those territories into full-fledged Allied territories.
    As for the Dutch territories, they are actually Allied to the UK, which is why you can land UK/ANZAC planes on them. That being the case, I personally don’t understand why those territories don’t start out with their incomes part of UK India or ANZAC incomes but have to have land units move there in the NCM to gain that income for UK India or ANZAC. It seems to me like the IPCs for Sumatra, Java and Celebes should already be part of India or ANZAC incomes if they are Allied already. Having UK or ANZAC moving troops there just seems like an extra, unnecessary move.

    Well if the DEI were all UK, IIRC (don’t have the map here) UKP would start with 28 income–more than Japan by a small margin. That means that the UK would be able to build up earlier, requiring Japan to make a DOW earlier, bringing US (and its extra $$) into the war earlier.

    It would make the game somewhat balanced in OOB, but with Alpha+3.9, game over for Japan.

    And note that these are the DUTCH East Indies, not the British East Indies  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



  • I suppose it is misleading then:

    Aircraft can only land in a territory that was friendly at the start of the turn.

    What makes a Pro-Allies neutral unfriendly?  You don’t have to fight them to gain control of them, they are free to take just as the DEI are.

    I’m just trying to make a point that it is confusing and less than consistent.


  • Official Q&A

    It’s not friendly - it’s a friendly neutral.  There is a difference, in that it is still neutral.  A friendly territory is one that is controlled by you or another member of your alliance.  A friendly neutral does not meet that requirement.

    There is a procedure for converting a friendly neutral territory into a friendly territory, which involves moving a land unit with an attack value into it.  Until then, no other unit may be moved into it, as it is still neutral (though friendly neutral).


  • Customizer

    Here’s something that might clear it up a bit. In Spring 1940, countries like Greece and Yugoslavia still had their governments intact and preferred to remain neutral, although leaning toward Britain and France. Holland had been overran by Germany, it’s government was in exile in London and thus was a full-fledged Ally to Britain. That’s why the Dutch colonies are treated differently from Pro-Allied neutral countries.



  • I’m not sure I understand this correctly, but here is how I think it works:

    When the game starts, Belgium is an ally that has been conquered.  No one actually plays Belgium and the Dutch have no government, no capitol and no military units, but the former Dutch colonies are still allies.  So an allied air unit can land there just like a US plane can land in Morocco after Paris falls.

    The difference between Belgium and France after Paris falls is that France has military units that are played by the France player as their goverment (in exile?).  Pro-allies neutrals like Greece have their own governments intact and all they will choose to join the Allies if attacked or activated.

    Former Dutch colonies are allies but they have no government so they are up for grabs (Anarchy!).  Whoever can get a land unit (not AA) there to establish a local government takes control.  In the meantime the allies can land air units there but do not take control of them.

    If a former French colony is taken by an axis power and then taken back by an ally of France, then it is provisionally governed by that ally until Paris is liberated.



  • I think using Greece as an example is bad for this game because it has 2 territories.  Its better to look at Turkey or some other neutral with only 1 territory.



  • Is crete part of greece or is it a separate pro-allies neutral?



  • Crete is a separate Pro-Allies neutral territory.



  • @techroll42:

    Crete is a separate Pro-Allies neutral territory.

    Correct, and Crete is part of Greece.



  • So if Crete is activated does it activate Greece too?  And if greece is attacked, does Crete become allied?


  • Official Q&A

    @Vance:

    Former Dutch colonies are allies but they have no government so they are up for grabs (Anarchy!).  Whoever can get a land unit (not AA) there to establish a local government takes control.

    Not “whoever”, just UK or ANZAC.  They are the only powers allowed to take control of Dutch territories peacefully, by special agreement with the Dutch government in exile.

    @Vance:

    So if Crete is activated does it activate Greece too?  And if greece is attacked, does Crete become allied?

    No.  There are no “countries” in the game - only powers.  Neutral territories are all treated independently.  The only exception is Mongolia, and then only for the purposes of the Soviet-Japanese Nonaggression Pact.



  • OK so that would explain why US can’t land planes on Dutch colonies or take them over unless they have first been taken by an axis power (Japan).  It is a special arrangement between Belgium (in exile) and UK/ANZAC that allows them to land planes in the former colonies or to take possession.  A bit murky but becoming clearer.  Thanks.


  • Official Q&A

    The US can move units of any kind into Dutch territories, as long as it’s no longer neutral.  It just can’t take control of them.  (By the way, it’s Holland, not Belgium.)

    The important concept to understand is that the Dutch territories are treated in almost every way as territories belonging to a power whose capital is held by the enemy.  The only exception to this is that UK and ANZAC can take control of them while they are are still Dutch by moving in a land unit.



  • Well yes, but West Germany is a part of Germany…  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

    I don’t think it matters–it’s all for game purposes.


  • 2017 '16 '15

    @kcdzim:

    @Spendo02:

    What ruleset are people looking at that states Anzac/UK can land aircraft on the DEI without taking control of them?

    I’m trying to determine of Japan can accomplish the same thing.

    The game mechanic intrinsic in all rule sets is that a plane belonging to a power that is not neutral is always free to land those planes on friendly territories (assuming they started the turn under friendly control) or carriers; hence the UK and Anzac are free to use Dutch territories as landing spaces as the Dutch territories begin the game friendly to the Allied Nations.  The only difference in how Dutch territories behave is that the UK and Anzac can take control of them by noncombat moving a land unit to them.  Otherwise they act exactly the same as any other friendly territory.

    Japan can’t land there.  Japan and the Dutch aren’t friendly, even if Japan hasn’t declared war on UK/ANZAC.

    while searching for the answer to this question I found some conflicting results

    in a pac 1940 post krieghound said you had to be at war to land on dutch islands

    however kc is a rule deputy and says you can

    did this change from oob?

    one can land uk or anzac air units on dutch controlled territories?



  • I don’t know what post you’re referring to but he’s probably talking about US. US is a neutral power and they are limited in their movements until they enter the war (either because they got dragged into it or because they declared war). They can’t move into UK/Anzac/French/USSR terr while they’re neutral and this also applies to the DEI. Once US is in a state of war, they’re officially an allied country and can noncombat move into any allied territory and use any airbase/navalbase. The only caveat is that they can’t use USSR terr to land in unless japan and ussr are actually at war.



  • I’m not sure if there was anything conflicting between what Krieg and I said.

    You must be at war to move into a friendly territory.  The Dutch territories are friendly to the Allies. Therefore, an Allied power must be at war to land a plane on a Dutch territory.

    The UK and Anzac both start the game at war (with Germany, even on the Pac board alone) and therefore may immediately land planes in Dutch territories, even if not yet at war with Japan.  The US can land a plane or unit on the DEI as soon as they’re at war with any axis power.  Russia may land a plane or unit there as soon as they are at war with Japan, specifically.

    It’s important to note that only Russia has split theater neutrality conditions.



  • slightly off topic perhaps but related…

    if euroaxis attack greece for example (or any other pro-allied neutral) but do NOT take it and there are still friendly neutral inf left over, can allied powers at war land air there even though greece is still “neutral”

    i think i remember hearing about this and thought i’d ask



  • @guy:

    slightly off topic perhaps but related…

    if euroaxis attack greece for example (or any other pro-allied neutral) but do NOT take it and there are still friendly neutral inf left over, can allied powers at war land air there even though greece is still “neutral”

    i think i remember hearing about this and thought i’d ask

    Greece is no longer neutral once it’s attacked; it’s friendly.  The allies can land units there, and the first power to noncom a land unit there will take control of it (and the remaining standing army).

    Once any neutral is attacked, they become a friendly territory to the opposing side of the attacker (and no longer neutral).


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