US 1 Purchases

[aaFiendish]

@ncscswitch:

You make a few errors in your responses. Caucuses CAN’T be retaken in round 2 before German gets to act: Russia has no forces left to do so: everything west of Yakut (in your scenario) is dead (except the R2 build, 8 INF to cover Karelia and Russia). That means Russia has to split their defense, leaving Karelia potentially vulnerable (not extremely, but again it comes down to my north atlantic sub sinking that Canadian transport and limitting UK to landing only 2 land units, of which one will survive and I might even get one or both of those fighters with AA or my land forces in Karelia that survive the BB. Also, have you considered that Germany leaves only 1 land unit in Karelia, inviting UK in and saving much of their air-power for an all-out strike on Russia from the Caucuses that you can NOT re-take before G2?

Well it would have been a mistake if I said that caucus was retaken before germany gets to act. I believe it explicitly states it as UK 2’s move that they attack the caucus with 1 bmb, 2 ftrs, and 2 inf. I certainly make mistakes frequently but that was not one of them.

Given my no luck scenario, you leave 1 unit in karelia? So germany has 1 ftr, 1 bmb, and 2 inf f/ caucus attacking russia. That would be a very, very sad all-out attack. Even if I decided as stated before to only place 2 infantry in moscow, that only gives you a 20% chance of taking. Considering you would want to lose 1 infantry, then fighter/bmb if you wanted to take, your odds decrease drastically. G: 2 * 1 + 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. 2 * 2 + 2 * 4 + 2 (from aagun) -> G: 1 * 1 + 1 * 4 + 3(carry) vs. 1 * 2 + 2 * 4 + 2 -> G: Kaput vs. R: 2 * 4.  Everything else that could have reached russia was used against karelia. If you didn’t use everything you could possibly bear, your odds become much worse in the karelia assault. As I stated before, after you have shot your wad you have no legitimate G2 with your moves.

You are right though, it CAN be done.

@ncscswitch:

And yes Germany would be weak afterwards, but building strongly for 2 rounds against a weakend Russia (with enough INF in key places so that UK would have to risk those precious fighters if they attempt an amphib).

I really don’t think russia is that weakened. They are still making some nice IPCs. Furthermore, as you have stated elsewhere, you are not reaching parity with economy/units. You cannot hold the IPCs you have taken, and you have blown your main starting units. By the third round the allies still hold significant territory BUT the axis units in the west have accomplished very little IPCwise. Yes japan will start gobbling some up, but that is typical. Russia could only really start slowing them down when they get near moscow anyhow.

@ncscswitch:

And as far as holding Japan at Yakut with 7 INF and a tank…
On J1, I can probably crack that with available J forces in an RR game.

Yes, you CAN, but I think you are relying on too many CAN’s. (i love this reference) I CAN win at tic-tac-toe, but I would never bet on it. Trying to win twice in a row is even more difficult against a skilled opponent. By attacking yakut you significantly weaken your advance in south asia, allowing those troops to be used as speedbumps later. Not to mention it all for a gamble. Lets do my silly thing called math. The odds are you will take it with the bomber if you throw away the inf. That’s what I’d do. Still, I’ll do the math both ways, first with if you just kill the troops, 2nd if you want to take it. If my count is right, the yakut battle is (at most) J: 3 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 8 * 2 -> J: 1 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 (carry) vs. R: 6 * 2 + 4 -> G: 2 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 3 * 2 + 4 -> G: 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 vs. R: 2 * 2 + 4 -> G: 1 * 4 + 5 vs. R: 1 * 2 + 2 -> G: 1 * 4 vs. R: Kaput. That is an awfully close battle. If you want to take the land, then you shift the chances of you winning below 50%.

J: 3 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 8 * 2 -> J: 1 * 1 + 3 * 3 + 1 * 4 + 4 vs. R: 6 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1 * 1 + 1 * 3 + 1 * 4 vs. R: 3 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1*1 + 1 * 4 + 2 vs. 2 * 2 + 4 -> J: 1 * 1 + 1 vs. R: 1 * 2 + 2 -> -> J: Kaput R: 1 * 2.

Yes you can crack it, but as russia I’m willing to take those odds. 50% to take out 3 fighters and a bomber? Can I get a hell yeah?

@ncscswitch:

Do you REALLY think that Russia, starting from 8 INF in Round 2 and reduced IPC’s can stand up to Germany knocking on the door and Japan a tank-blitz away backed up by a hell of a lot of air-power?

The great thing about halloween is that you can always just not answer the door. Considering you sacced half your airforce on J1, can only tankblitz with 1 armor on J2, sacced your german airforce, your german armor, yes I do think they can stand up to it. The cool thing is that if you go all out on yakut, you cannot take china.

[DarthMaximus]

This was RR right?

If you know your opponent or feel a Kar strike on G1 is possible, Russia can certainly take back Cauc on rd 2.

Russia Stacks Kar (like above)

But move 2 inf from eve to Mos and 1 arm from yak to Novo.

Now UK takes back Kar on UK 1 (russia moved ships to Uk sz) and Russia attack 2 inf on Cauc with 2 inf, 1 arm.

And Russia places 8 more inf on Kar, or can even deadzone it by placing all 8 inf on Mos.

If Germany is going for all or nothing they need to take Kar with about 5-7 tanks to have a shot.  2-4 is not enough.

Russia can easily just retreat on the Eastern Front and by the time J3 rolls around Germany is boxed in Europe and the Allies have started to arrive in full force making it possible for Russia to hold against Japan and even push them back becasue Germany is in a weakend state.

[DarthMaximus]

Welcome back SUD.

I had some trouble posting for a bit.

We lost about 2 yrs or so of topics due to a hacker incident, so yeah you’re probably going to see A LOT of rendundant threads as we try to rebuild the info that was lost.

Anyway, good to see ya back.

[aaFiendish]

You assume that people would read the info if it was there :)

[DarthMaximus]

Lol!    :-D

[stuka pilot]

Depending on the first turn outcome, I would sometimes by a couple of bombers and the following turn send them to England to be used for conducting industrial raids. Then, save the change (6 IPC) for the following round.

[Guest]

More and more I find myself going for all infantry on US1 b/c it allows a greater spread of options later in the game some of which are mentioned here for turn 1.  The big drawback for A1 all inf purchase is that it means minimal movements to Africa on A2 which means IMO that you have to be able to swing doing more with less in Africa.  If you aren’t a skilled enough player to do this then stay away from this.  However, as I see skill as getting the most out of your units on every turn I try to avoid overkill ie overcommitment as it means making sacrifices elsewhere.  The longterm advantages of all inf on US1 is that on turn3-4 you will have no lag in production and you can build up your fleet more slowly allowing more unconventional builds to occur.  The US starts with 2trnies so if I can save them, that means getting the WUS one to the Atlantic, then I can build 2 on A2 and commit only the most minimal of capital to naval builds.  Sometimes the US can be very powerful with 7boats if they build 7arm, sometimes an exra ftr here or there might make a diff, but b/c I have committed very little to my fleet very early on I can react and respond to conditions on the board.

[dezrtfish]

I always buy the same things for A1, what changes are the number of Transports vs. Infantry.  I like 2 Trans 6 Inf on  rare occasions if I think Japan may make a run for Alaska I might excange one inf and the 2IPC for an Arm.  But I mostly play face to face and I can read more from eyes than text on screen,  :wink:

[limitedwhole]

I buy IC for Sinkiang, 1 SUb for Pacific, 1 TP for Atlantic.
Attack in Asia if possible.  Move bomber to UK.  Mpve both FIGs to WEsetrn Canada where they can hit hawaii seazone and land on British carrier.  Move 2 Inf into Africa.  Move 2 INF from western to Eastern for next turn Africa move.  Move BB, TP, and 1 Inf from wake to Hawaii.

This of course assumes several things as they go last in turn sequence.

[SSG Rock]

:|Pretty risky limitedwhole!  You may be buying an IC for Japan, if you can’t defend it quickly :-o

[limitedwhole]

I feel that if you cannot attack in ASia you are dead already.  Allowing Japan to have complete control over their forces is suicide for the team that already has an advantage.  Do you really want to take chances that Japan doesn’t have terrible dice rolls.  3 ARM, 6INF a turn is just too much for the Russians to bear.    Not to mention that an pressure form Japan draws pressure of Germany and German only needs a few INF breathing room on the eastern fornt to go nuts.

[Solomaxwell]

In my opinion, you need to take the initiative in the west first. Attack, attack, attack with UK and US, and defend, defend, defend with Russia. The pressure from Japan is more or less irrelevent, as long as you defend well in Russia, unless either you’re playing too poorly or the Axis player is too good.

[Guest]

I have had serious havoc played with my Japan strat via a Sinkiang IC.  But now that I have faced it played WELL. I know how to deal with it, and it does become a “pending liability” for Russia from the time it is built until it falls to Japan, at which point it becomes a liability for the Allies.

[limitedwhole]

@Soon_U_Die:

@limitedwhole:

I buy IC for Sinkiang, 1 SUb for Pacific, 1 TP for Atlantic.
Attack in Asia if possible.  Move bomber to UK.  Mpve both FIGs to WEsetrn Canada where they can hit hawaii seazone and land on British carrier.  Move 2 Inf into Africa.  Move 2 INF from western to Eastern for next turn Africa move.  Move BB, TP, and 1 Inf from wake to Hawaii.

This of course assumes several things as they go last in turn sequence.

Pls list your assumptions, especially whether or not you are proposing a 2 IC strategy for the Allies (India & Sinkiang).  I honestly don’t understand most/if not all of your purchases/moves.

Thanks

SUD

My assumptions would be this more or less.
The allies man two IC for a total of 3 INF, 2ARM production in Asia to Japans 3 misc.  The U.S. moves it fleet into Japanese territory aggresively.  The SUb purchase “guards” the BB and TP along with the FIGS.  Yes the Japnese can over power this with TP’s, but that is what the U.S. fleet is for to disrupt this.
The Japanese aren’t dumb and detroyed the AC at HAwaii first turn.
The Russians took MAnchuria or at least killed all tthe INF.
The U.S. will man an every turn setady supply of transports in the Atlantic not an evry other turn Tp shipments.  The every other turn strategy allows the Germans to not guard their rear every other turn.  You can alos combine shipments on a key turn.  4 INF and ARM in africa and 2 INF, 2ARM in EAstern U.S. attack WE.  At this pooint you move to the every other turn approach.  The idea is to make the minimum investment in the PAcific while having a steady grinding threat in the Atlantic.

[limitedwhole]

@ncscswitch:

I have had serious havoc played with my Japan strat via a Sinkiang IC.  But now that I have faced it played WELL. I know how to deal with it, and it does become a “pending liability” for Russia from the time it is built until it falls to Japan, at which point it becomes a liability for the Allies.

Liability my ass.  If there is no IC investment by the allies the Japanese will have all the Russian territories east of Moscow by turn 3 or turn 4 by the latest.  With IC investment by turn three they will have only two Russian territories.  I also like how you capatilized WELL like that means something.  Lets see as the Russians would I rather have my allies holding back the Japnese for 5-6 turns or would I rather have Japan at my dorrsetp taking away 8 IPC by turn 3-4.  With IC’s the allies can hold the Japanese to 27 Income without taking islands.  Toss in some island hoping and they are well below that unable to relce TP losses meaning they cannot engage the U.S. fleet in the PAcific.

[DarthMaximus]

@limitedwhole:

Liability my a**.  If there is no IC investment by the allies the Japanese will have all the Russian territories east of Moscow by turn 3 or turn 4 by the latest.  With IC investment by turn three they will have only two Russian territories.  I also like how you capatilized WELL like that means something.  Lets see as the Russians would I rather have my allies holding back the Japnese for 5-6 turns or would I rather have Japan at my dorrsetp taking away 8 IPC by turn 3-4.  With IC’s the allies can hold the Japanese to 27 Income without taking islands.  Toss in some island hoping and they are well below that unable to relce TP losses meaning they cannot engage the U.S. fleet in the PAcific.

But, with a tactical retreat, Russia can hold off Japan almost indefinitely and that is without the investment of an Allied IC’s.

@limitedwhole:

My assumptions would be this more or less.
The allies man two IC for a total of 3 INF, 2ARM production in Asia to Japans 3 misc. The U.S. moves it fleet into Japanese territory aggresively. The SUb purchase “guards” the BB and TP along with the FIGS. Yes the Japnese can over power this with TP’s, but that is what the U.S. fleet is for to disrupt this.
The Japanese aren’t dumb and detroyed the AC at HAwaii first turn.
The Russians took MAnchuria or at least killed all tthe INF.
The U.S. will man an every turn setady supply of transports in the Atlantic not an evry other turn Tp shipments. The every other turn strategy allows the Germans to not guard their rear every other turn. You can alos combine shipments on a key turn. 4 INF and ARM in africa and 2 INF, 2ARM in EAstern U.S. attack WE. At this pooint you move to the every other turn approach. The idea is to make the minimum investment in the PAcific while having a steady grinding threat in the Atlantic.

I think it is a bad idea to split Allied spending consistantly, and I think a good Axis player will exploit this.  You can get away with a nuiscance purchase for the Pac here and there, but consistant spending in that arena will be costly (KJF excluded of course)

Now onto the question at hand, What does Japan do?

Oh yeah, obviously if the Allies do KwangBang in rd 1, then Japan is in quite the hole, but this is precisely why some bid (in units) must be given.

But for the heck of it, I’ll assume a R1 take of Man with 1 inf, 1 arm (But no UK Kwa attack).
Germany takes Egy on G1.
UK buys IC for Ind and fortifies.

Japan buys 2 trn, 3 inf
Japan attacks:
Pearl with sub, 2 bb, ac, 2 ftrs
Man with 4 inf, 1 ftr
Chi with 4 inf, 1 ftr, 1 bom

(or some variation, the point is, all should be taken with relative ease)

Pearl cleared with 2 bb, ac, 1 ftr
Man taken with 3 inf, ftr
Chi taken with 2 inf, planes

From this point on the Allies can be a bit of a nuiscance, but nothing more.  Japan can simply ignore SE Asia.  It isn’t that relavant to begin with.  Northern Russia should be empty due to the R1 Man attack and Japan can leave FIC empty.  They have enough planes to trade inf for inf (if they wish) while sending the bulk of their forces to Yak (or Mongolia) to force the Allies to defend Novo.  On turn 3 if needed Japan has its 2 bb’s in position to launch a major amphib assualt on Fic, if the UK was foolish to move there in force.

On rd 2 Japan can get 6 inf, 1 arm to Man, and on rd 3 it is 8 inf to Man.  That means about 14 inf (+ whatever survived rd 1) in rd 4 on Yak (or Mon).  The Allies can defend the IC’s if they wish, but I’ll keep moving to Novo or even Eve.  They simply won’t have the attacking power to stop the Japanese Inf push.

Plus the Allies will have to buy aa’s for each IC since Germany and Japan can both bom them, which is an additional loss if the aa’s aren’t bought.

Meanwhile Germany can be blitzing through Afr, until confronted or her med fleet is destroyed.  And the lack of pressure on WE (every other turn) makes vacating it even more benefical to the Germans then normal.  They can simply leave the turn before the Allies arrive and choose to counter strike or strafe at will.

They should also still be in postion for their lurch in rd 4 or 5 (possibly rd 6 or 7), just as Japan is moving her northern infantry in position to possibly strike Novo.
The key is to time it right, which makes the actual rd it occurs not that important, just that you put the Allies to a very tough decision.  Which of course is the trade off for the Allies, give up Kar or Novo or your IC’s in SE Asia.

[limitedwhole]

Japan cannot ignore SE Asia.  I am getting tired of talking about this.  Set up the board and try it out.  no bids.

[DarthMaximus]

Yes they can.  :-D

The problem is, everyone agrees with you that the IC strat will work in a no-bid game.  But a no bid game in general is not that challanging for the Allied player to begin with.

And once bids are introduced this strat no longer becomes feasible b/c most players will place 2-3 inf in Asia making it impossible for the UK player to consider the India IC.

That is all.

[limitedwhole]

@DarthMaximus:

Yes they can.   :-D

The problem is, everyone agrees with you that the IC strat will work in a no-bid game.  But a no bid game in general is not that challanging for the Allied player to begin with.

And once bids are introduced this strat no longer becomes feasible b/c most players will place 2-3 inf in Asia making it impossible for the UK player to consider the India IC.

That is all.

Hehehe.  Our house rules aren’t called “The Allied Challenge” for nothing.  Try playing Russia with a 3 unit limit on Karelia.  It is challenging.  Actually it’s probably allot harder than any bid game.

[limitedwhole]

Plus its not swingy.  Placing 5 INF somewhere just unbalances one region of teh board.  Thatas a pretty silly way to play the game.  Everyone knows that the game isn’t balanced because Russia can plop 8 men a turn in KArelia.  It’s really that simple.  Play a game with IPC limit and you’ll know what I mean.  You’ll actually get an ARm every once in a while with Russia and like have to move men around.  The Allies actually have to time there naval movements ahead of time 2 turns in advance.  The game becomes much more balanced and complex with IPC limit.