Japan Tactic to help hold off america

[BJCard]

@Stalingradski:

And elvenjerk - J4s work just fine. I do them all the time. They really work people who are used to J1/J2 into a lather…

“What the bleep is Japan doing not attacking me, letting my fleet get away, and letting my economy grow… I’ll surely win this game! And why are they building all those transports…”

Then they find out.

True, J4’s can work, but it depends on what Germany/Italy are doing.  If Germany isn’t doing a G1/G2 attack on Russia, then what is Japan waiting for?

[Stalingradski]

Germany is doing a G4 as well. Hey, it works for me.

Everyone is so hasty!  :-D

I see the charm in a G1 + J1/J2… it makes great sense. It’s a matter of taste - it’s possible to win either way.

[Stalingradski]

I realized I didn’t answer your question…

The answer is - setting yourself up to have it all - China, DEI, and eventually India.

The first key is to kick the snot out of China for a few rounds, uncontested. I like to park all my aircraft in Kwangsi, and use straight aircraft to kill the Chinese in Szechwan on J2 - no matter the size of the stack. That means the Burma Road is only collected on once. That matters quite a bit, and losing a couple fighters with Japan is completely worth it.

Build one IC - that’s all for now. I see people make the mistake (in my opinion) of building three, or more. Why? Transports are so much more versatile, and do the same thing - they just need to be properly protected. You start with all the air power in the world you’ll ever need to maintain a large fleet.

Build a couple transports each round. Get to at least six, or seven. Then don’t be afraid to keep buying them as needed throughout the game.

Then, turn and prepare for island taking, with the transports you’ve been building. It’s a creative process from there - it would be boring to try to go  blow by blow, because every game is different. A lot depends on what the Allies have been up to with their staging.

The goal is to keep contesting the DEI, finishing off China, and engaging in a war of attrition with India. In the meantime, timely purchasing of carriers and destroyers is everything. A second IC makes great sense in F Indo, or Malaya once your infrastructure is set up. Then if you’ve been patient, you can settle into a long, slow dismantling of India.

It also works to take out India very, very quickly - just not my style.

[elevenjerk]

It can have another, more important effect: let’s say you’re in a tenuous transport war over the Phillipines/DEI with the Allies. Making the US turn around and spend a turn dealing with your stiletto jab could actually cost them the initiative in the Pacific. The ripple effects could be enormous.

Yes sir.  Attacked J4 and the US had 3 transports poised to take over the Corolines on US4.  I had 2 fighters, 2 inf, 1 aa in carolines so they needed all 3 transports in order to take it.  Slipped a transport with 2 inf to the islands and now what is the US gonna do?  Can’t get Carolines with 1 loaded transport and no air can help (unless US had bombers in Queensland but who does that? Especially at US4).  At the islands, 4 @ 2 against 2 @ 2 is pretty risky since I have lost that battle a lot and I am sure other people have as well.  Don’t want to lose the battle if you go so you have to take some navy if your the US.

And elvenjerk - J4s work just fine. I do them all the time. They really work people who are used to J1/J2 into a lather…

“What the bleep is Japan doing not attacking me, letting my fleet get away, and letting my economy grow… I’ll surely win this game! And why are they building all those transports…”

Then they find out.

Well said :-D

Build a couple transports each round. Get to at least six, or seven. Then don’t be afraid to keep buying them as needed throughout the game.

I have a J4 strat written out where they actually have 10 transports by the time they attack on J4.  There are so many options at that point its really quite fun.

The first key is to kick the snot out of China for a few rounds, uncontested. I like to park all my aircraft in Kwangsi, and use straight aircraft to kill the Chinese in Szechwan on J2 - no matter the size of the stack. That means the Burma Road is only collected on once. That matters quite a bit, and losing a couple fighters with Japan is completely worth it.

This matters more than quite a bit… this is huge.  This puts china in a huge dilemma.  If japan has 2 units left then china has to take at least 4 inf and fighter into yunnan in order to take it back.  You can’t risk not getting it back cause if Japan can land all its airplanes there on turn 2 then Calcutta is hosed.  That leaves China with 8 inf at the most left in Szechwan and a fighter if they are crazy enought to leave it in there.  Japan will have 8 fighters, 5 tacs, 2 bombers and thats if they choose to leave all planes on the carriers (exchanging the Korean fighter with one on a carrier so the carriers are full). If UK wants to attack on UK2 in order to hold the road then that just benefits Japan more.  If they don’t attack then Japan can land all its airplanes in Yunnan on J3 and can do what ever they want from that point.

The goal is to keep contesting the DEI, finishing off China, and engaging in a war of attrition with India. In the meantime, timely purchasing of carriers and destroyers is everything

By J5 you should have all the islands along with Kwantung, FIC, Malaya and maybe even Shan State.  You may have to do some back and forth with Anzac but that is to be expected.  Its pretty frustrating as US when Japan spends 16 to have a loaded carrier and the US has to spend 37.

The thing with J4 is that up to this point the allies can’t really do anything about it since they are not at war.  UK/Anzac attack turn 2 then Japan can make a lot of money by turn 4 and have full focus on the US.  If they attack on turn 3 (which is expected) they get a one turn bonus on income but its all gone in the next 2 turns.  Anzac back to 15 at the most and UK down to 6 or 7.

Germany is doing a G4 as well. Hey, it works for me.

I would be interested in hearing this strategy.  It has always seemed to work best for me attacking Russia G1 with the J4 strat.  US gets 2-3 turns in the war and the Russians are saluting Hitler :-D

[BJCard]

Waiting until G4 to attack Russia; ballsy.  Unless you took London turn 3, why are you waiting to attack Russia?  They make 37 IPC’s turn, less than Germany sure, but they are going to have a wall of Infantry by G4.

[Stalingradski]

Elven - 10 transports! I like it. Economically, two of those transports might be a carrier for me… but if you handed me a game with 10 japanese transports on the board, I’d be pretty ok with that.

To everything else you said… yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. And I don’t mean that facetiously; we just think alike.

BJCard - G4 talk! Very fun to talk about.

Firstly - the reason for delaying: it’s all about creating an unstoppable infantry/artillery force, and making Russia pay you 5 IPCs per turn to feed wheat to the new troops you’re mobilizing  :-D

J4 brings a similar benefit - 10 IPCs per round for not attacking F Indo, + paralyzes the US and their economy. Back to Germany and a G4 Barbarossa…

Basic basics - Germany has the ability in this game to create a dominant fleet in SZ112. Add a few ground troops to Normandy, and a decent amount of fighters defending the fleet (carriers + airbase W Germany), you can hold out for a long, long time against superior allied fleets. And just when they think they’ve got you, you add a carrier (best) or an airbase to Denmark (ok). Or a single destroyer in the English Channel. Creating and maintaining this fleet presence keeps the allies out of Norway and Normandy, and keeps forcing them to buy non-transports and non-land units to overcome your ever-growing Kriegsmarine/Luftwaffe combo.

The only way to win the game of Axis and Allies (other than surrender) is for your opponent to get land units to your capitals/victory cities. The more non-transports and non-land units your opponent is buying, the better. I’ve never seen a victory city taken by a nice looking group of fighters. You have to put boots on the ground. There, I italicized the whole d$#%^d paragraph, because to me it’s that important.

So the German fleet/air achieves something terribly important - keeping large quantities of men from landing on your shore… the US keeps buying non territory-taking subs/destroyers/planes to overcome your fleet… good!

But the second (and more rewarding) part of the SZ112 spiked shield is this: it buys you an amazing amount of time to isolate and dismantle Russia, piece by bloody piece. Important components:

• Buy in the correct proportion. 6 infantry/artillery/mech infantry/2 armor/fighter/destroyer is a 56 IPC buy I can really, really sink my teeth into. This kind of a purchase, from G2 forward, gives you a crazy amount of versatility and flexibility in your decision making. You can be all things against your enemies, as needed - growing navy, growing air force, lots of infantry for both offense and defense, artillery for punch, mech infantry to needle behind enemy lines, and armor to carry the Wehrmacht to victory in Moscow.

• Take Novgorod as soon as possible, of course: for obvious economic reasons and for the purchasing power. This should never be in question, based on what you start the game with, unless Russia sells out to keep it, in which case you go south and make them wish they had stayed in the middle of the board.

• In the meantime, you’ve pooled a good sized infantry/artillery glob… this will be able to muscle into Belarus and then attrit Russia relentlessly.

• And my favorite part: using an ever-growing mechanized force/aircraft to encircle Moscow, both north and south, and feast upon the Russian hinterlands. It is great fun to send a couple armor and a couple mech past the giant Russian monolith and take economy all around the perimeter. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been able to get away with it, even when the person I’m playing knows it’s coming… because the large German infantry/artillery force makes the infantry-based Red Army static, and predictable.

So yes there is a wall of Russian infantry waiting, and yes it is bigger than the Geman forces lined up against it… but if you’ve been purchasing well, your defensive value is better than the Russians can handle… and when Russia holes up and still has 60 infantry, guess what? Next round, through attrition there’ll only be 56… then 53… then 48… etc. My mechanized forces with the help of Italy make a mess of any relief coming up through the Caucasus region… and Russia will fall. Maybe turn 11, or 12, or 13, or whatever.

[elevenjerk]

Elven - 10 transports! I like it

I have been saying it for days, but I have a J4 strat written out. I just have to find the time to type out that NOVEL :-D

Economically, two of those transports might be a carrier for me

I got one of those in there too :-o

The only way to win the game of Axis and Allies (other than surrender) is for your opponent to get land units to your capitals/victory cities. The more non-transports and non-land units your opponent is buying, the better. I’ve never seen a victory city taken by a nice looking group of fighters. You have to put boots on the ground

This is soooo true.  I generally try to take the Russians out fast.  Could never justify letting Russia get so huge but you certainly have opened my eyes on the way to go about it.  In our last game the Allies tried to do a heavy transport buy in the atlantic in order to thwart the G1 attack.  Fail…. for all the reasons you stated.  There was some US Navy but not enough.  Whenever more navy was purchased, Germany added a fighter or two.  Always enough to wipe out whatever the UK and US had coming.  Made it impossible to get into Germany.  At the end, Germany had 8 planes (4 fighters, 4 tacs) in W Germany defending.
By that point Germany and Japan were making around 150 and the allies were at 130 or something and it was clear that there was no way in and not enough money to make something happen.

[BJCard]

I would say that a G4/J4 could work, I just haven’t seen even a G3/J3 work- I’d have to see a league game or at least a non-ranked game to see how it goes.

[Omega1759]

@BJCard:

I would say that a G4/J4 could work, I just haven’t seen even a G3/J3 work- I’d have to see a league game or at least a non-ranked game to see how it goes.

I’ve been doing some G5 with Egypt in hands of Italy and a German unit in it (South France grab + navy build). On I3, I take the bordering territories and the Germans walk in on G4 without declaring war (they have the option do so so if there is an opportunity). In these cases, Italy is keeping the UK fully busy and the US has long ways to go before impacting the Western Front.

The purchases in initial turns are focused on Navy / Artillery / Infantry, then I add mech as needs / opportunity dictates (to keep the stack strong enough to get closer to Moscow. Once the stack is in Front of Moscow, it’s a matter of strangling the Soviet Union and keep adding air / ground power to prevent landings.

[BJCard]

What are you talking about here Omega?

’ Germans walk in on G4 without declaring war ’

[Omega1759]

@BJCard:

What are you talking about here Omega?

’ Germans walk in on G4 without declaring war ’

Italy declares war I3 and takes Baltic States.

Then, the German stacks moves in on G4 in the friendly territory.

On R4, Soviets declare war against Germany, but need to evacuate Leningrad.

G5, the Germans take Leningrad with a token force and Keep moving East (Belarus).

[BJCard]

@Omega1759:

@BJCard:

What are you talking about here Omega?

’ Germans walk in on G4 without declaring war ’

Italy declares war I3 and takes Baltic States.

Then, the German stacks moves in on G4 in the friendly territory.

On R4, Soviets declare war against Germany, but need to evacuate Leningrad.

G5, the Germans take Leningrad with a token force and Keep moving East (Belarus).

Actually have not thought about this… nice move.

[Omega1759]

@BJCard:

@Omega1759:

@BJCard:

What are you talking about here Omega?

’ Germans walk in on G4 without declaring war ’

Italy declares war I3 and takes Baltic States.

Then, the German stacks moves in on G4 in the friendly territory.

On R4, Soviets declare war against Germany, but need to evacuate Leningrad.

G5, the Germans take Leningrad with a token force and Keep moving East (Belarus).

Actually have not thought about this… nice move.

That strategy works pretty well if Germany goes heavy in the Med early on (and focuses on cheap, 1 move ground units to build a solid stack). You should normally be able to deny the Russian NO on R4 as well.

Russia will be tempted to buy mechanized forces / air forces. It gives them flexibility but at the end of the day you can crush them (see game attached)

[Stalingradski]

I’ve had the G5 attack done to me by Germany moving into Italian -occupied E Poland, by Infrastructure here on this site. It was sneaky smart…

[ghr2]

G5, even though russia is at war R4

[Stalingradski]

Ok, G4 then.

[BJCard]

So when you attack Russia on turn 4/5, what army composition do you have?  You likely could be facing 40+ Infantry, 5 art, 2 mech, 2 arm, 2 fighter, 1 tac in Belarus or Bryansk.

[Stalingradski]

Take a look at the league section, check out any of my games as the Axis in the early turns, and you’ll see the variations on the theme. I’m not pretending I do anything special - it’s just what I do, and it’s effective against almost any counter.

But in general, the composition is all the starting forces, and Italy has taken E Poland on I3. Germany then has the choice to attack in the north (Karelia/Vyborg) and across the front (Baltic States/Bessrabia/mech infantry into anything lightly defended in either Novgorod/Belarus/W Ukraine); or to stack in  E Poland with everything including aircraft and not declare war and collect some extra wheat from their Russain friends  :-)

On turns G2, 3, and 4 I’ve been adding a little fleet and a little air, but mostly bulking up for a long slugfest with Russia… which means purchases I’ve laid out here many times… 6 - 8 infantry, a little artillery, a little mech, and a little armor. But mostly infantry! They’re your best friend in a long battle of attrition, and the strategy fails without them. Basically, you’re beating Russia at what they do best - build and deploy lots of cheap infantry - the difference being, you as Germany have more teeth. Way more teeth  :evil:

I suppose, shooting from the hip and without looking at the board, I’d have around 30 - 36 infantry; 9 artillery or so; 6 - 10 mech; 10 - 12 armor, + starting air minus taranto/UK naval clubbings + the one aircraft per turn I’ve been buying.

A HUGE key to my slugfest strategy with Russia is the role played by Italy… and I mean huge. It’s just critical, period. The crux of it is wisdom I finally gained after many many games. I always viewed Italy in the past as a separate, third nation. I no longer do. I see it as an extension of Germany, and nothing more. And nothing less! I know this might sound like ok, whatever, but I’m telling you, it’s anything but. It was a huge revelation for me. All of my choices now spring from this one critical core philosophy. They are part of the same dance against Russia. Again, there’s no way to go into unit by unit detail… every game is different, but the philosophy remains. If you take the time to check out my Axis league games, you can see it happen right in front of you.

[BJCard]

Fair enough.  I suppose if Italy is helping a lot in Russia, then the Med is lost?

[Stalingradski]

It could be… but depends almost completely on how the Allies choose to direct their income. It depends on if the UK ran a taranto. It depends on how the UK has chosen to deploy their air power. It depends if Japan holds off to keep the US out of the war.

One thing that I’ve found to be an amazingly successful strategy (used against me and Infrastructure extremely well by Axisplaya/Team Imhotep) is the early grabbing of Gibraltar… and then feeding Italian troops and aircraft to it relentlessly. Then, the only thing that can get into the Med is subs/air from the Atlantic, and whatever the UK can muster from the Indian Ocean etc… but if you can pull it off, enjoy. You can set up a defense so complete, you’ll have the Med to yourself and be able to commit a few ground units a turn to the East Front (as well as a little air power) - just enough to get some economy and can open for larger German armies.

Take a look at an example of this in a league game vs Infrastructure (it is the one where I am listed first) - it is a deep game (turn 17) and we still have a ways to go. The key was my getting into Gibraltar very early and holding it, then turning my attention toward Russia. Please don’t look at the Pacific  :oops:- this is a game he’ll probably win, regardless of the European board outlook, because I made a few errors very early with Japan, plus he’s a great player.