Taranto and Axis responses to Taranto in G40(A3 final)

[Guest]

TOPIC OF THIS THREAD:  Taranto and Axis responses to Taranto in G40(A3 final)

NObody gives a shit about your game with questioneer.

[Cow]

Yeah I told you, do what garg says. end of discussion. If you want to win as axis you do what garg says, you blast it with the 12 germany air, because it 1 shots all that naval.

There is no questioning it.

I am telling you why it is a good idea to sink everything with germany, it stalls uk in the long run.

Italy can do the french navy if it wants to, but that is it. if there is naval in 97 and it is only a couple of units then yeah italy can opt for that instead of being convoyed and hit greece.
~

Garg pretty much hit the nail with the hammer in terms of possibilities. Especially these days, most allies are chanting pacific pacific pacific, so yeah if germany/italy put in the work they will get the reward.

[Cow]

I am also a huge advocate of sinking sz 97 or the so called Taranto. It is the only real option given to the allies, all the other options almost equate to throwing the game.

[Guest]

Good thanks Cow.  If you stay on track your ideas come out better.

[soulfein]

uk has to sink sz97. always.

hitting sz91 cru in g1 is not a must but sending ger air to med is a must be; ita has to preserve starting navy, so ger air has to clean med plus might be needed to back up an alex stack

disagree with yugo ger factory, sending air is much more optimal in most -if not all- occasions:

fac g2, newly purchased navy g3, doing something with navy g4 seems too slow compared to constant commitment of ger air to med/africa. not to mention air is much more versatile than navy, plus cheaper

[Cow]

woah you finally made an account. Soulfein play garg’s tournament!

[soulfein]

probably going to, but no idea whom to team up with

[Cow]

Honestly, you are a strong player, but new to the forum so you might have to pick someone random from the forum. That is fine, I might raise an eyebrow if you teamed with Guerilla or another veteran.

I hope we don’t get paired, I play you enough, leave me alone ><.

We should play another game. I like Japan 1 DOW. I want to see your reaction.

[Septimus]

@soulfein:

disagree with yugo ger factory, sending air is much more optimal in most -if not all- occasions:
fac g2, newly purchased navy g3, doing something with navy g4 seems too slow compared to constant commitment of ger air to med/africa. not to mention air is much more versatile than navy, plus cheaper

I give you that airforce is way more versatile than a small German support fleet in sz97. Actually I agree Axis have to use its planes in the Med as well.
But what if the allies put some bombers in the Med ? your planes help you destroy the allied ships, but won’t defend much your Italian fleet. Do you intend to build an early Italian AC for protection, or a German one (in sz93 ?) for that matter ? no. I think an AB in Greece is a replacement solution for that.
And, the IC in Yougoslavia would help you build the necessary to achieve German NO with a ground unit in Egypt, allow you to help a bit the Italians in North Africa, MidEast more easily than if their fleet came from sz93, should Germany have S France.
And it give a little more power to the Axis fleet itself, earlier in the game than if it was purely Italian.

I know it is a bit costly, but it’s still cheaper than riskying unprotected transports in the Med from sz93 to sz97, leaving your fleet unprotected in sz99 when you land in Syria. And an axis AB in Greece, that would protect all these places, would also give you extra range for fighting the UK on the ground, and even later in the game against the Russian.

I see this as a possibly good response to Taranto to get Italy back faster in the game. That doesn’t mean it’s the only one;

[wheatbeer]

There seems to be some consensus forming … I want to throw two further questions out there:

If Germany lands 3 fighters in SITA on G1, does that deter an Allied Taranto?  What if (in addition) Germany sinks the UK cruiser in SZ91?

Does it ever benefit the Axis not to full scramble in SZ97 on UK1?

[soulfein]

@wheatbeer:

If Germany lands 3 fighters in SITA on G1, does that deter an Allied Taranto?  What if (in addition) Germany sinks the UK cruiser in SZ91?

nope, gotta hit taranto. always.

@wheatbeer:

Does it ever benefit the Axis not to full scramble in SZ97 on UK1?

on some very specific cases eg:

-if u want to proceed with sealion and really need those ger air in sita
-if ger didnt feint sealion n uk bought a minor fac
-if u want to move ger transport(s) to gib and need ita air to sink a possible block
-if somehow a nice opportunity involving sita air presents itself

summing up: yep u can choose not to scramble if u believe u got something better to do with those ftrs.
but that “something better to do” must really compansate for huge pile of units uk will have standing in med.

PS: having more than 1 ger air in sita gives axis more flexibility, since they can choose whether to scramble ita or ger air, n use the other for better purposes.

[questioneer]

@Cow:

questioneer is in for trouble, not doing taranto is rough sauce.

would you like to start a game with me as well? I actually want another game.

He put himself on a KJF clock, Japan just has to maintain his fame for at most 10 rounds and europe will be bagged.

Since Cow likes going public, thought I’d pipe in and quote my response to the conversation from our game thread:

"Competitively or friendly game???  Both.  Can’t you do both??? :?  Please, don’t spare me your best.  If you are not going to give me your best then don’t bother playing.  That’s boring.

Also, you humor me in the fact that you mention our game on other threads completely off topic.  Very smug.  I like it.
It flatters me that I must validate you as an AAplayer, giving our game attention where it doesn’t belong.  I like your approach to losing- excuses. :cry:  That’s great material when I beat you here or the tournament.

Also, love your flowchart A-D crap, like you actually know something more than anyone here.  Must have taken you awhile to make that.  BTW, starting you out with the Tobruk attack instead of Taranto is like giving a baby milk.  Gotta see if you can handle that first.  I personally prefer Taranto, always have.  Didn’t get that from you, who thinks that all AA knowledge orginates from yourself.

So please, step off your toilet and save us the jargon and your continuely revising articles.  If your gonna talk, play games here, back up your words with some play.  Nobody gives a crap what you do 8 hours on a computer a day playing “live” games in your mom’s basement or making AA flowcharts. :lol:

Honestly, with 8 other games going, your just another lab rat in testing.  Maybe you’ll pass MY test and graduate to “option C” in my flowchart. :roll: :lol:  “D” being the lowest for babies like yourself.  Had to clarify that since you’re below me. :wink:

Do something for me kid, try playing some other good players.  Learn something.  Talk less, play more on the forums here.  If you really didn’t care about about forum games, you would be posting every other time to validate yourself would you???

I’ll post ANZAC/France soon, gotta check my flowchart.  LOL  Cow you’re a trip, your almost as fun as Imp Leader or mantlefan back in the day.

I’ll be expecting another entertaining post from you soon.  I know you won’t disappoint."

[Cow]

The two are different by definition. In a competitive game I subtract things I might do for fun for purely the sake of winning. In a friendly game I might take risks and do the most “optimal move” every turn.

It is easier to demonstrate the flaws or weaknesses to one’s strategy in a live triple a game, because I can just show you stuff.

You are really screwed in our game man. I am not new, I see how this goes and I am being honest with you. Little things that matter will eat you. Like you should take sumatra fly anzac fighter on it, block with dd in java (that way 1 inf allows you to collect 4 and maybe 4 more unless japan convoy you and you get anzac fighter to india). but you take sumatra instead… this is no good.

Not doing 97, no plan for russia Africa NO. No long run game. Just you rushing japan, this is more of a friendly game strategy than competitive, because you are hoping I make mistakes. You give me wrong impression.

[questioneer]

@Cow:

Like you should take sumatra fly anzac fighter on it, block with dd in java (that way 1 inf allows you to collect 4 and maybe 4 more unless japan convoy you and you get anzac fighter to india). but you take sumatra instead… this is no good.

Not doing 97, no plan for russia Africa NO. No long run game. Just you rushing japan, this is more of a friendly game strategy than competitive, because you are hoping I make mistakes. You give me wrong impression.

You’re not making any sense at all.  In a J1 gambit, the BB is capped so Brits can’t block anything.  You can’t fly an ANZAC ftr on Sumatra only Java.  :? Japan can easily cap the DD and other ships and just NCM through the rest of the large fleet though.  Not much India can do here besides counter land units when possible, turtle and wait for help.  I got another game going where a J1 is happening, very similar moves.  He just pushes through.  Nothing can slow down Japan if that BB is capped J1.

Not doing z97- I agree with you there.  I’m curious to see if z97 is the only optimal strat for Allies that’s why I tried Tobruk- such bad dice there that time- not a good representation of what a Tobruk attack can do.  I like Taranto though, but again testing what other things can or can’t work.

[Guest]

@wheatbeer:

There seems to be some consensus forming … I want to throw two further questions out there:

If Germany lands 3 fighters in SITA on G1, does that deter an Allied Taranto?  What if (in addition) Germany sinks the UK cruiser in SZ91?

German fighters matter.  If axis can scramble German fighters rather than Italian fighters then Taranto is a less valuable target.  Italian air units can clear blockers at sea, do can openers on land, escort bombing runs on airbases, etc.

z91 cruiser also matters.  UK must sink z96 so they send 2 units, usually the Gibraltar fighter and 1 ship just in case the destroyer hits. If z91 cruiser is gone the ship will probably be the z98 destroyer.  That’s 1 less unit for Taranto so it is potentially more costly in terms of air casualties.

Doing both of these things shifts the risk/benefit.  Less benefit of Taranto raid if Italian air force may be spared; more risk to UK air force if there is 1 less ship available.

@wheatbeer:

Does it ever benefit the Axis not to full scramble in SZ97 on UK1?

In a REAL sea lion, Germany will SBR UK and hit z109 and z111 to kill destroyers to allow convoy raiding.  Those planes will not be able to land in Southern Italy (maybe just 1 plane).  They really want to preserve the Italian air force so they can go to France and then SBR the UK airbase on I2 (1 bomber and 2 fighter escorts).  They absolutely cannot risk losing those Italian planes because they are able to prevent uk scrambling on G3.

Seeing that sea lionish G1, UK may be unlikely to try Taranto and will try to get their planes home and the z110 fleet somewhere safe from German attack G2, like maybe z118.  Of course, the axis could always turn around and have Italy airstrike the French cruiser blocking z110 so Germany can take Gibraltar.

[Cow]

anzac fighter makes it to sumatra dawg, it can make it to malaya or siam alternatively. it has 5 movement.

[Guest]

Why is everyone suggesting a sz 97 attack? Seems bad to me. 3 fighters in rome, a BB, Cruiser vs 1 AC, 2 Fighters, 1 Tac, 1 Cruiser, 1 DD is too big a risk. The UK can consolidate the navy off Malta with the cruiser from 91 and cause huge problems for Italy instead. If Italy doesn’t attack, they can’t go transport into africa without leaving newly built ships exposed. Also, lets say the UK does win the battle. Their fleet will be easy to crush with West German air and the Italians still have 2 DD, 1 Sub, 2 Transports, and a Cruiser. TARANTO IS BAD IDEA

[wheatbeer]

Blitz,

It wouldn’t make sense to attack SZ97 without also attacking SZ96.  The UK can attack both Italian fleets with > 80% odds of victory (using London’s strategic bomber as well).

Those odds are reduced if Germany sinks the British cruiser in SZ91.

There may be strategic problems caused by Taranto, but I don’t think the battle itself is too risky.

[seth4god]

The bomber can reach from UK and 2 fighters as well if you really want/need them. Use the carrier to soak up hits and land the air in Malta. Hit the lone dd/trn with fighter/cruiser from gibraltar. If you’re feeling spunky just use the cruiser and send the figter against sz97. As long as the dice are fair, you might end up with a ship or two left in sz96/97, 2ftr/tac/bomb in malta, the french fleet, and the italians are left with one transport and a handful of ships. You’re also poised to sink what’s left of the italian fleet should it leave the safety of it’s airbase.

The italians might scramble, especially if Germany flew some air down to help. Great! Now the italians are left with a 1/3 of their fleet and no airforce to help them expand. Yeah, you might start to lose some air, but I’ll trade British air for no italian fleet and airforce any day of the week. Italy will also probably take more ship losses taking out the french fleet without those fighters to assist.

Squash italy before they’re getting 30+ ipcs and you’re well on the way towards getting a victory. Why huddle in sz96? Italy will be able to combine it’s fleet and suddenly they’re a real threat to the med. Force them to start from scratch instead of giving them a fleet core to build around.

[Cow]

There are no strategic problems with taranto.

You don’t need your stuff on london to begin with. 1) usa can buy bombers, if japan declares war (which he should or face serious delay in the pacific) then G3 sea lion will not work as up to 5 bombers fly into london 2) you sink sz 97 and if germany wants to do sea lion he can’t send all his air down to sink your ships… this means italy is screwed for a long time.