Tried Japan without early IC's - only transports


  • Convincing the Russians to forsake a fighter for Karelian defense for a risky venture with an Indian IC is a hard sell. It also limits the fighter’s turn 2 attack capabilities. As for the British transport, I’ll spend one of 3 planes to take it out for 2 more infantry transported from the Phillipines. Even if Russia gives the fighter to the British and you don’t want to attack India, take China and build up forces for turn 2. Taking India may be delayed a turn or two, but the British lose resources better applied elsewhere. As long as US and UK Asia is in Japanese hands no later than turn 4 your in good shape…


  • Xeno - I high disagree with both your Japaneese and Allied strategies. The whole point of the Industrial Complexes is to make Japan Focus on them and not attack russia for as long as possible.

    And, Transports are definatly the way to go. You cannot attack with more tanks than infantry, it just wont work. I barely have 2 tanks to 9 infantry when I play. I overwhelm Russia with Pure Numbers.


  • my last 4 games as allies turned out all the same. I defended Yakut with 5 infantry and Karelia with large numbers, Germany tries taking Africa, Japan goes into South Asia. Britain protects Africa and bombs Germany, US sends in forces to Europe. Turn 2: Russia attacks eastern Europe with Karelia and destroys german armor as well as most infantry, turn 3: Britain attacks Scandinavia, US attacks Western Europe, turn 4: Russia places all units in Russia to stop the Japanese. Britain attacks Germany and is defeated, US attacks Germany from Western Europe and might be defeated, Russia takes Germany on turn 5. Japan does kamikaze on Moscow and loses. End of game :smile:

    Sooo i leave Japan alone and destroy Germany within 4 or 5 turns. Japan building an IC saves me about 5 infantry on defence in Russia in a positive way. Btw Yanny, wouldnt you need that transport to block German fleet from capturing SA?

    [ This Message was edited by: greensleeves on 2001-12-26 07:02 ]


  • Greensleeves - sounds like your German opponent wasn’t too experienced. He put too much effort into Africa at the expense of European security. An African venture beyond turn 2 takes a seasoned player. If the Allies took that much German European territory that early I wonder what he WAS doing.
    In the Asian theater, the Japanese player needed to hit you in north and south Asia sooner. It must have been great to string him along. Sounds like he gave you plenty of time to do pretty much whatever you wanted. The early Japanese IC in itself didn’t doom him. They have to be placed and used properly to work out. Obviously, you can’t forget about your transports or your infantry needs. NP determines what you can and can’t purchase. Reaching the maximum NP in the shortest time needs available armor in the right place at the right time. Armor is needed to respond to a British threat from Africa. The Russians of course will respond to Japanese units so close to it’s capitol. This helps Germany expand. Once Japan takes all of Russian Asia, it starts build up for attacking the capitol. A good Japanese trick is a mock force build up near the Middle East intended for Africa but in range of Russia. This can capture the Russian capitol when attentions are directed elsewhere…


  • you can force players to take certain decisions (i dont think i played 4 terrible german players in a row):
    1. By building an IC in South Africa Germany will send many troops into Africa or leave Africa for what it is. Either way is good for you. If he tries conquering africa, he has to weaken his european force, leaving Africa to the allies means lots of ipc’s less.
    2. By defending Yakut with 5 or 6 infantry allmost all japanese players take southern asia early and dont concentrate on russia, meaning that russia can get up to 30 IPC income or even more.
    It works against allmost all players.

    Germany is weak itself, it doesnt really matter that much who plays with it. Its simply impossible to defend Eastern Europe with infantry only. Russia can crush Eastern Europe on turn 2 destroying all armor there, which usually is alot. And with the forces in Eastern Europe destroyed Germany cannot defend itself against invasions by all 3 allies. Germany will most likely fall on turn 4 or 5 then, by that time Japan has reached Moscow but Russia can afford buying enough infantry to defend it while the other allies finish off the last remains of Germany.


  • If your German opponents are building IC’s in Africa it’s no wonder their losing! If their losing Eastern Europe in turn 2 means that their going on full defensive in that region from turn 1. That’s a big mistake. Russia can’t be allowed to have forces available to take EU that early! Germany really can’t afford to put more than 2 infantry into Africa per turn for no more than 3 or 4 turns. Western Europe needs to be fortified and the Eastern Front addressed. The US and UK cannot be allowed to take Western Europe ever!
    If Japan isn’t hitting Yakut by turn 2 or 3 (the latest) they are not opening that Northern Front soon enough. If Japan is doing so without sufficient forces to capture it, again they’re doing something wrong.
    Your opponents strategies are not aggressive enough to deal with the threats your hitting them with. Their not looking 2 or 3 turns ahead. If they wan’t to stand a chance against you, they better overhaul their Axis plans quick…


  • germany didnt build an ic in africa, i did (britain). even if they send 2 infantry into africa, they only have like 9 infantry left in Eastern Europe (even less if defending Western as well). With 19 infantry, 2 fighters and 4 tanks from karelia, russia can take up to 8 IPC’s worth of territory on turn 2. Which means 32 IPC :smile:


  • I see, Russia isn’t attacking in turn 1. Still sounds like your German enemy isn’t attacking Russia at all and pulling back. That IS suicidal. Also sounds like he’s buying too much armor too soon. German forces need to keep the Ukraine at least 2 turns to keep the Russians out of Eastern Europe. Germany must sacrifice their armor to do so, but it forces Russia to take the Ukraine back. Doing so dwindles Russian forces to the point where German infantry can protect EU without it switching hands.
    Sorry I misunderstood your African post. The only way an extended German African venture may work is rather risky. You need to build a carrier in Southern Europe, hold the Med, and take Karelia in turn 1. Taking Karelia in turn 1 is hard enough (using all available forces). Impossible if Russia has 20+ units in Karelia. Of course you have to ignore the British fleet (taboo). If it somehow works you buy time against Russia to do some work in Africa. I haven’t tried this yet, saving it for some future test…


  • Ok. A word to you Japaneese Players who see the axis dieing without anything you can do. You will be able to see they are doing this by Britain’s first turn, as they put everything they have into Africa.

    Hit Russia HARD. Ignore anything to the South, Rush Russia. Make them take their troops away from Germany. Funny many infantry every turn to Manchuria. By Turn 4 start gathering for an assault on Russia. Then, tell your German player to hit Karelia with EVERYTHING they can, especially if a successful allied assault on Germany looks eminent, you can always take it back.

    Make sure you move your survivers of the Pearl Harbor attack to the Atlantic ocean. By the time you are at Russia’s door, time it so your fleet attacks America’s (dont worry about Britain’s) transports. This will buy you time to kill Russia, and for Germany to break out.


  • I see your point, Yanny…BUT, with Japan going full force at Russia, doesn’t that leave their IPC’s rather low. I think Japan can do more damage, with more $$, as long as Germany can survive for as long as possible. I just can’t see forgeting about S. Asia, especially if the UK and the US have IC’s there. If Japan doesn’t clear allied opposition forces in Asia, it will only bite them in the ass!


  • Yanny -I already know that you disagree with the strategy, but it is the way to go. When you build an IC in Asia you are basically handing it over to Japan if your opponent knows what he is doing. Japan is simply far better positioned to fight on the Asian front and the Allies can not afford to take any pressure off of Germany. You don’t seem to realize that the growth rate of Japan is only important relative to the strength of Germany. You see, Japan has to be able to challenge Russia while Germany is still relatively strong. Slowing down Japan at the cost of buying time and strength for Germany is counter productive. The best way to slow down Japan is to go all out after Germany.

    Tanks are clearly the weapon of choice for Japan. They have twice the movement of infantry and three times the attack capabilities. Infantry are primarily a defensive weapon, but armor is far better suited for attacking and rapid expansion -the primary needs for Japan in most games. ICs are simply more cost effective than are transports for Japanese production.


  • Observe. Japan buys two transports. That’s 16 IPCs (one more than an IC). Japan can move as many tanks or double the infantry onto the mainland than if they had an IC there. They also have the option of moving these units onto the mainland where ever it may suit them for that particular turn. This is why I believe that an early coastal IC is completely unnecisarry. It’s not just a matter of being more cost effective (if you call saving a single IPC being cost effective) being more moblie and having the ablity to move more troop plays perhaps an even more significant role in conquering asia.

    [ This Message was edited by: bossk on 2001-12-27 16:16 ]

    [ This Message was edited by: bossk on 2001-12-27 16:17 ]


  • Xeno - Thats exactly what the Allies want. They WANT Japan to take the IPCs, and they want to make it damn hard for them to do that. The whole point of an Asian IC is to Buy time for Russia, not beat Japan on the Mainland. Without them, I could see Japan knocking on Russia in 4 turns in force.
    Tanks without at least double the infantry to screen them are WORTHLESS. I would be the laughing stock of Origins and the Baltimore Gaming Convention if I bought a lot of tanks with Japan. You lose your expensive pieces by taking tanks as casualties. I tend tokeep a 2 tanks to 7 infantry ratio lately.


  • i only buy like 1 or 2 tanks when playing Japan in the game, usually all my IPC’s go to infantry. I think we’ve all seen Japan dieing because it had only fighters to fight russia with :smile:. Just be sure you keep a steady supply of infantry coming in.

    And about the factories, i played with allies again today and japan build 3! factories in the first 3 turns. And when turn 4 started, he had only taken far east and china :smile:. I think factories are able to maintain a steady supply of infantry, building one should therefore take place on turn 3 or 4 when infantry is running low on the mainland. You can use the transports and battleships to conquer 3 territories a turn in the first few turns, won’t happen with factories.


  • and your absolutely right Yanny, my allied strategy usually leads to a Japanese attack on Moscow which till now has never worked. Most players think they got a chance attacking with 12 tanks and fighters and only 8 infantry. But a russian defence of 17 infantry (must be possible) and 2 fighters can take down all the infantry first throw, then take out all the armor on second.


  • Yanny - As a Japanese player I’ll assume the Allies will buy IC’s in Asia. The Japanese first turn IC in French Indo-China can quickly deal with them while your transported forces in the north hits Russia. I do agree that the Anti-Russian attacks initially are mostly infantry. Seems like you would lose too much time moving against South-East Asia first then swinging north to attack the Russians. It doesn’t seem to make much difference - 1. you hit the Allied IC’s first, Russia second; 2. leave the Allied IC’s alone, attack Russia only, and they lower your attack strength (which takes Japan longer or not at all anyway). To hit both areas at the same time (by turn 2) is the quickest for NP gain. It will make your Russian attacks a little weaker but you still gain ground. The NP boost allows you to keep that ground. I’ll risk ridicule at any convention if it works.
    What I’m not hearing about from anyone is the British threat from Africa. It sounds like it doesn’t exist. This is a major thorn in Japan’s side and takes energy away from the Russian attacks. I do hear about the US transporting to Africa. This can’t be too significant if the US is serious about taking Europe from Germany. Japan’s 1st turn IC purchase (in French Indo-China) 2nd purpose is to deal with this threat or invade Africa. What happens to the Japanese Russian offense when the UK has units pouring into Asia from Africa when all Japan has is transported infantry? Japan loses NP and gets a stalled offense.
    Greensleeves - if your enemy is buying 3 IC’s in the first 3 turns I agree this doesn’t make much economic sense. Japanese NP doesn’t warrant such a purchase really at all. With the 1st turn IC in French Indo-China, I HAVE taken down Russia with the guidelines I have mentioned throughout this thread. It also stalls an advance from Africa or invades it…


  • In my view, a Japan IC is warranted 2nd round. If they wait any longer than that, the allied forces have a good chance of seriously delaying Japan. Think about it! If the allied goal is to only delay Japan, then Japan needs to counter that by being bigger, faster, and more aggressive.
    Yes, transports are good, and so is an IC.
    Japan starts with a foot-hold in Asia…they need to quickly expand as fast as possible for the following reasons… Put an end to allied forces in Asia so they can gain $$ to fuel their assault on Russia in order to save Germany. With that said, I wouldn’t wait longer than round two for an IC. The IC gives Japan that instant presence they need, along with transports it equals over-whelming numbers. By turn three Japan can be pumping out 3 tanks and landing 8 inf. on the mainland.


  • Yanny- I completely disagree with you here. I don’t think the Allied IC stalls Japan much at all, and ultimately you are giving him another IC to build with as well as pulling valued resources out of Europe.

    With three countries defending there is no way Japan can reach Moscow in 4 rounds with anything substantial.

    Tanks are definitely the way to go for Japan. They are far better for attacking and have much better movement capabilities than infantry and they are not expensive. Buying/moving infantry @ 2-1 in favor of infantry for Japan does not make sense because it is not efficient. Sure, if you purchase twice the amount of infantry as you do tanks you can buy more pieces, but the logistics associated with getting them to the main land makes them far more expensive than the 5-3 cost of the pieces themselves would indicate because their are movement cost associated with the extra pieces on top of their purchasing cost (transports or ICs needed). So you may be bringing more pieces into the battle by buying twice the amount of men as you do armor, but not a substantial amount more due to the added manufacturing/transportation costs associated with the extra pieces. And the fact that tanks have three times the attacking capabilities that infantry do more than justifies their cost -a force of mostly tanks that are going to hit three times as often as infantry are is more formittable than a slightly larger force made up largely of weaker infantry. Infantry’s attacking capabilities are pittiful as is their movement ability -they are far better suited for defense.


  • Xeno–I think what Yanny is trying to say, is that the Inf. accompany the armour (or vice versa). The Inf. are there as cheap fodder. Theres going to be loses going into Moscow…so why not lose cheap Inf. rather than build a massive force of tanks that cost 2 more IPC’s, only to lose half. By buyng men and moving them on trans. to the mainland (you can ship 8 men by buying 2 more trans. than Japan originally starts with), you can have a force with spare parts along for the ride, at a cheaper cost. I still beleive in tanks…but just not an all out buying spree of them.


  • Ok, lots of issues to speak out here.

    On Allied ICs - Japan’s forces are not in a good position at the start of the game. They do not have more troops than the combined allies. They only have 2 transports to the Allie’s 1, 3 provinces to the Allie’s 5 (counting Yakut, India, Soviet Far east, China, and Sinkang). This means it will take time to expand into Russia. The point of the ICs is to make that time harder. If you build 5 tanks a turn (this is the ONLY time I warrant buying so many tanks. 5 Tanks a turn will slow the Japaneese Advance considerably, and will easily overwhelm any Mainland Factory.

    On your Indo-China IC. First off, how do you plan to (a) beat 2 ICs with your 1 IC and (b) STILL attack Russia? Enough said.

    On Tanks vs Infantry. I remember the first games I played Axis and Allies. We thought the Axis could never win. Why? Because Germany bought 6 tanks a round, Japan bought 2 ICs and 6 Tanks a round, and Russia Built all Infantry. Russia always won, simple because they had far more bodies than than the Axis.
    You say Infantry suck at attacking. Listen to this math.
    You have 15 IPCs worth of Tanks or Infantry (I use 15 because it is the lowest common denomonator). 3 Tanks attack 5 Infantry. First round, Tanks get 2 hits (I round up) and Infantry get 3 hits. Tanks dead, 3 infantry are left. Attacker loses 15 IPCs, Defender loses 6 IPCS.
    Now, 5 Infantry attack 3 tanks. First round, Infantry get 1 hit, Tanks get 2 (again rounding up). There are now 4 Infantry and 2 tanks left. Next Round, Infantry get 1 hit, Tanks get 1 hit. There are now 3 Infantry, and 1 tank. Next round, both have a 50% chance of hitting. Get my drift?

    Don’t Believe me? Done with the odds calc found on this sight, The attacker has a 15% chance of winning in the former, and a 64% chance of winning in the latter.

    Bottom line, Infantry are better.

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