Yes, Karelia is adjacent to the Baltic Sea.
You are Germany, what do you do?
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I think the key for the german player in this case is to have an armoured reserve based in Germany. Russia will be tempted to go on the offensive and could blead their forces thin. This armoured reserve could be used for small counterattacks to keep the Russians off balance or could be used in a big counterattack.
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buying an extra bomber aint not a bad idea. I played a game last night -lost it offcourse :wink:- and i hit a lot of transports with my bomber. The chances are quite high you can hit 3 transports with one single bomber, my opponent had to place a battleship on US east coast to protect his newly build transports. And i used my bomber for bombing missions in Russia, if you combine this with a japanese bomber, the russians hardly have any ipc’s left to spend on defences.
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I would hit Ukraine with everything I could. I would still hit the British ships (North Sea and Labrador) But I could still get 4 armor and 5 Inf. I think it is important to eliminate the russian armor.
I would build 9Inf and 1Arm.
Then Attack at least one russian territory a turn with Germany and if possible with Japan.
The Russian basicly has no offencive power at this time so the threat of counter attack is at a minmum.
Personaly I am happy when I see this situation with Germany.
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I agree, bring everything to Ukraine that you can, but still try to destroy the British fleet. Forget Africa. Once the russian tanks are gone, you win. Have Japan pressure the Us hard.
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If Russia attacks Ukraine first turn, then they are sticking their neck out to get it chopped off. They would destroy a few infantry, a few tanks, and a fighter. THey would probably lose much of their infantry defensive base. If they use their fighters as well, that means that they did not use the fighters against Germanys northern fleet, which in turn means that it may have survived the sub/transport attack. Lastly, they will have divided their forces, exposed their tanks, probably evacuated the Caucasus, and only gained a territory worth 3 ipcs. In this case destroy the remnants of their attack force, take the caucasus with one or two infantry, and use the north fleet to help destroy the British fleet. This may even free up the sub in the Bay of Biscay for use against the American or Canadian transport(okay odds). In Africa, well either don’t send troops to certain death in the caucasus, or destroy the american transport so that it is okay to wait one turn.
All in all, there is a bright side to the position you described.
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If Russia attacks Ukraine first turn, then they are sticking their neck out to get it chopped off. They would destroy a few infantry, a few tanks, and a fighter. THey would probably lose much of their infantry defensive base. If they use their fighters as well, that means that they did not use the fighters against Germanys northern fleet, which in turn means that it may have survived the sub/transport attack. Lastly, they will have divided their forces, exposed their tanks, probably evacuated the Caucasus, and only gained a territory worth 3 ipcs. In this case destroy the remnants of their attack force, take the caucasus with one or two infantry, and use the north fleet to help destroy the British fleet. This may even free up the sub in the Bay of Biscay for use against the American or Canadian transport(okay odds). In Africa, well either don’t send troops to certain death in the caucasus, or destroy the american transport so that it is okay to wait one turn.
All in all, there is a bright side to the position you described.
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Thats not what I was trying to imply. What I am saying is if Russia Attacks with ONLY 4 infantry, plus the tanks and fighers, go heavy on ukraine. As Russia I always would attack ukraine, but I would use much more infantry.
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I would probably send my atlantic sub after the Brit Med battleship - I would also bring along my battleship and transport. Load a tank on the transport and consolodate on Algeria. You might even land a fighter there on non-combat moves. You might also use one infantry unit to take Gibraltor instead of delivering a tank to Africa. This would prevent the British fighters from attacking your German med fleet in GB round 1.
I would send my German sub against the Atlantic fleet with 4 fighters and a bomber.
I would attack Karelia with all ground forces in Eastern Europe and Finland/Norway and with 2 troops brought via the german transport. Attack for one round only and withdraw to Eastern Europe. Hopefully you get more kills on him than he gets on you.
Think of it this way, if you loose less than 4, you come out ahead. You would have lost the 4 units in Finland/Norway one way or another. If you loose four units, make them all infantry - you saved the tank. If you loose more than four - you can shoot me. =)
Move southern europe infantry to western europe, land fighters there too. Move tanks in Western Europe to Eastern. Move German infantry to Eastern Europe.
The entire European allied fleet now consists of 2 transports and a sub in the med, and you’ve consolidated a large force in Eastern Europe.
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thats all assuming russia restricted?
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Still, if Russia attacks Ukraine,
1. you can hit them with everything in estern europe.
2. you can also hit them with two more infantry (or one more tank) via transport through the black sea.
3. If you do add troops by sea, you can also hit them with a battleship shot
4. The bomber and most of the fighters are also within range to kill the russian tanks.
5. If they hit Ukraine, they probably left caucasus empty, so you can take it by sea with a single infantry.
6. Remember to renforce Eastern wit troops from Germany and tanks from weatern.
7.remember to reinforce germany with newly bought inf or armor.I attacked Ukraine with Russia (and very good luck as well) once and got all these things done to me. Tell me what I should have done if you don’t agree with me that attacking Ukr. is a bad idea.
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My post was assuming the situation that xenophobe outlined in his original post.
Monk of Doom
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On 2001-12-18 12:24, xenophobe wrote:
Russia throws everything it can at the Ukraine and is left with, say, 3 armor, 4 infantry, and the two fighters. The ground troops obviously remain, and the planes land in Karelia. Russia buys 8 infantry and places them in Karelia, and also moves the 4 infantry from Moscow into Karelia. He consolidates his Eastern forces from Yakut and the Soviet far East into Yakut, and moves the two men from Evenki into Moscow. He also moves his sub and transport into the UK sea space.That leaves:
12 infantry and 2 fighters in Karelia;
3 tanks, 4 infantry in Ukraine;
2 infantry in Moscow;
5 infantry 1 armor in Yakut.Germany is left with all its original pieces except that it has lost everything that was in the Ukraine.
You also know that the Allies will be going all out after Germany.
What would your move be if you were Germany in this situation?
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Germany looses about 3 offensive: pieces 2 armor, fighter. It hurts, but Germany is still at an advantage. If Russia buys all infantry then you know they are planning to possibly go on the defensive or using them as cannonfodder on attack to E.Europe,FinlandNorway. Russia can’t afford to lose any of it’s offensive pieces(3 tanks). I always buy infantry as Germany for about the first 2-5rounds in the hope in mass out producing Russia in cannonfodder and also to aid overall European defense
If it were anything less than 4 infantry but had the three tanks still remaining in the ukraine, I would have sent my 3-5 infantry and 1 tank, fighter, and bomber in order to destroy 1/2 of all Russian offense.
But in this case, since Germany starts of w/quite an Offense, buy as much infantry as you can,w/an a occasional tank or fighter. Do the basics: sink the English ships, and take African territory, maybe invest in an extra cargo ship to aid africa. Leave only a few infantry in e.europe as bait and hope that Russian will come in with their troops and tanks. You should have enough fire power to take back the territory,you may not hold it long so remember to use the least amount of tanks in the fight the goal is to out spend the Russians in Cannonfodder,by going back and forth with them in Eastern europe to the point that Russia spends more money on the attacks than yours on the counter. If Russia doesn’t attack then still buy infantry, and build enough to place in E.europe, where it would cost too many casulties for the Russians to try and attack and do the retreat thing. Both stratigies only work as long as you keep your IPCs high enough. This is for the long-term, but it keeps Russia “on their toes” or bare minamun, keeps Germany in the game.
On 2001-12-18 12:24, xenophobe wrote:
Russia throws everything it can at the Ukraine and is left with, say, 3 armor, 4 infantry, and the two fighters. The ground troops obviously remain, and the planes land in Karelia. Russia buys 8 infantry and places them in Karelia, and also moves the 4 infantry from Moscow into Karelia. He consolidates his Eastern forces from Yakut and the Soviet far East into Yakut, and moves the two men from Evenki into Moscow. He also moves his sub and transport into the UK sea space.That leaves:
12 infantry and 2 fighters in Karelia;
3 tanks, 4 infantry in Ukraine;
2 infantry in Moscow;
5 infantry 1 armor in Yakut.Germany is left with all its original pieces except that it has lost everything that was in the Ukraine.
You also know that the Allies will be going all out after Germany.
What would your move be if you were Germany in this situation?
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Moving this to the axis and allies forum
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Russia has gotten extremely lucky with his losses in the first attack, but never mind–that can happen. By my count, Caucases have been left completely empty. Load up 2 infantry on your Transport in the Med and move it and your Battleship to the Black Sea. If your house rules allow it, land 1 Inf from the TR on Caucases, 1 on Ukraine and move all units save the fighter from Eastern Europe to Ukraine. Attack with your Tanks from Germany and your Tank from Southern Europe as well. Move in 2 FGTR from Finland/Norway and West Europe, and use the Atlantic sub and German FGTR to sink the UK BB at Gibraltar. Use the East Europe FGTR to help in the invasion of Egypt and use the BMR to sink the UK sub. Now let’s check out the Ukraine: you’ve got 4 Inf 4 Armor 2 FGTR and a Battleship’s 1 shot vs. 4 Inf. 3 Ar.–a stiff fight, but winnable. 1st Round you should score on average 4-5 hits (1 BB, 3 from fighters/tanks, maybe 1 INF) He should score 2 counterattacks (assuming you got lucky w/ the BB shot) Next turn he’s destroyed and you’ve lost another INF. By the end of Combat, you should have about 1 INF Caucases, 1 INF 4 ARM Ukraine, hopefully 1 ARM Egypt and 1 INF F.W. Africa. The Med is clear and you’ve gone up 7 IPC’s from the start of the game.
Move 3 INF from Germany into East Europe, Transport 2 Infantry or 1 ARM to East Europe From Finland Norway. Move 2 Armor from West Europe to East Europe for added bulk and replace them w/ 1 INF from Germany. Land all available planes in West Europe and South Europe, if possible. Place whatever you bought in Germany, with the exception of at least 1 or 2 INF in South Europe (to threaten another seaborne attack) I recommend 2 AR 7 INF (since whatever planes you have left may now assist in the next attack), 4 ARM 4 INF (to threaten Karelia) or 1 FGTR 1 ARM 5 INF (to replace the lost fighter and HOPEFULLY take out the UK fleet next turn). Now you’re in an interesting situation: Russia can take back Caucases easy, but they lack the strength to attack both East Europe & Ukraine without severe losses. Remember they have only 1 ARM left–and as far as Germany’s concerned, in Yakut it’s harmless! Both Allies (UK and USSR) have some very tough decisions to make–USSR could make an attempt to sink the German TR in the Black sea but might lose a precious FGTR. Alternatively they could try to sink the other TR, but whatever FGTR they used would not be available to support any land attack. UK on the other hand has to decide whether to try to sink the German fleet or Strat. Bomb them–they could do both but the sub has a pretty good chance of surviving then–use it! The UK probably will not make an attack on West Europe if they are facing 3 INF, 3 FGTR and a BMR–but keep an eye on them: beef up West Europe next turn. Plus, at the moment you OWN Africa–try using your extra 7 IPC’s toward purchasing a 2ND TR round #2: believe me, for Germany 2 TR in the Med go a LOONG way. Throw an extra ARM into Africa next turn and watch the US landings falter! Losing F/N will not hurt so much with 9 extra IPC’s in your pocket! Plus, remember the Japanese ally is there to help: get them to land their bomber on Manchuria or Southeast Asia on Round#1 so starting round 2 you can tag team Russia’s IC’s w/ Strategic Bombing! I will usually try to get them to do a flyover of USSR round 2, and on Noncombat land on Western Europe–that way you can take your pick each turn who to target for S.B. round–UK or USSR.Ozone27
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-04 11:05 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ozone27 on 2002-02-04 11:12 ]
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Everybody, what am I missing? If russia attacks Ukraine 1st turn with everything they can, then they lose most of their tanks and half thier inf on a counterattack. Plus, germany could add 2 inf or one tank and a BB 1st shot attack.
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I also think russia shouldn’t take Ukraine because of the counterstrike. It’s better to kill the infantry and a tank or two and then to retreat to Karelia in time. Furthermore I think the Russian fighters are needed in the Baltic first. Germany will then have to retreat from Ukraine because otherwise the remaining forces will be killed by Russian infantry and fighters. It is not possible to reinforce Ukraine with infantry without weakening other territories too much.
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I think the point of xenophobe’s excercise is not that its likely to happen, but only that its possible and how would you salvage a game that’s gone so badly T1? It’s about recovering from extremely bad luck.
Ozone27
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I think what “OZONE27” on the counter is good for 7 IPCs. And Germany needs alot, especially in the begining of the game. But, it slows the african expansion down. And what about 4 German tank and 4 inf, left in Ukraine? Mind you that Germany already lost 2 tanks, and if Russia “throws” every thing it’s got into Ukraine 1 armor 2fighters and about 12 infantry it would destroy the 4 tanks and inf. It depends also what Russia buys first round and second whether or not this would be a good idea, but if Russia buys infantry and say, 1 armor to help counter and if the U.S. invades finland/norway with 2 troop trans(4 infantry 1-2 fighters and bomber, on the turn before, to help relieve a German counter, into Karilia, I think it would seriously hurt the Germans. (Depends also what Germay buys as well, of course).
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But the ARM in Yakut CAN’T be used in Europe T2, and USSR has NO troops in Russia to speak of! So AT ABSOLUTE MOST USSR can attack Caucases on T2 with 3 INF unsupported, with 9 INF 2 FTR against Ukraine. My admittedly unscientific analysis says they’ll take it w/ probably 6 INF. Enough that Germany can waste them with their units in East Europe supported by FTRs and ARM from the rest of Europe. If Germany purchases a lot of INF and ARM T2, it is in fact USSR who will be in a bad way–plus if UK didn’t get crazy w/ the BMR T1, you should still be able to withdraw your fleet to South Europe and augment it w/ a TR: MAYBE you can salvage the situation in Africa T3–I dunno. Point is: the USSR situation has been ameliorated for now and the game should continue T3 w/ a good chance for an Axis victory.
Just my thoughts.
Ozone27
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