Oh look a religious debate on a board game forum! I’ll go get my popcorn.
Can Bush Recover?
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As it stands, Bush couldn’t get elected dog catcher. His approval ratings have dipped below 40%, Iraq is a mess, and his pet project is DOA (Social Security reform). Also Republicans up for reelection are already distancing themselves from him.
That said, here’s the poll
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Bush cant be blamed for Katrina, but the Commies will continue to broadcast negative reports about Iraq, which seriously harms him. He shouldnt really care though, because hes not up for reelection.
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Iraq has sent their Constitution to the people for ratification, no Iraq natives have been caught in terrorist actions in months (lots of foreigners, but no natives, at least not according to Stars and Stripes the only non-biased news source with actual feet on the street over there that I know of) and locally we can tie all the deaths and destruction for New Orleans back to the mayor and governor of Lousianna/New Orleans respectively.
For instance, the money raised to rebuild the levvies was used to dredge the canals making the local politicians richer.
For instance the 50,000 tons of food and water the Salvation Army wanted to bring in for relief was ordered out by the State Police under orders of the Governor.
For instance the Red Cross was ordered not to set up field stations before the hurricane by the Mayor’s office.
FEMA was designed to support the states in an emergency, not be the primary emergency responder. Making them one is detrimental to the power of the state thus making the state a superfulous agency that is defunct of power and responsibility.
I think this blame on the President is really unfounded. If you want to yell at him for The Patriot Act fine, I’ll back you up! You want to critiscize his inability to stop millions of illegals from entering the country, GREAT! You want to yell at him for not repealing soft-wood lumber tarriffs, FINE! These are all things in his power to control.
He does not, however, have the ability to create hurricanes, aim them and then send in the Navy SEALS to go blow up the levvies. I don’t care how many Louis Farrakahn’s say he does.
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Iraq has sent their Constitution to the people for ratification,
Which was rejected by Sunni Arabs. The Sunnis alone can derail the consitution if they turn out and vote.
no Iraq natives have been caught in terrorist actions in months (lots of foreigners, but no natives, at least not according to Stars and Stripes the only non-biased news source with actual feet on the street over there that I know of)
I would be leery of depending on the government or military for “news” after the last couple years. That said, 300 people were blown up/assasinated in the last four days (24 found shot to death today). What does it matter if it’s domestic insurgents or foreign fighters or a combination of both? It makes us look bad. We can’t even provide security in the capital of the country.
and locally we can tie all the deaths and destruction for New Orleans back to the mayor and governor of Lousianna/New Orleans respectively.
You may think so, but the rest of America does not. Bush’s approval dropped ten points for a reason: He is viewed as a “can do” president, not bound by beauracratic red-tape. Katrina has changed all that. Also, people are learning that Bush staffed FEMA with inexperienced political appointees (“Bang up job, Brownie! By the way, you’re fired.”), and had the orgnization focus on terrorism to the point where it couldn’t respond effectively to a natural disaster. What did you think when you heard Bush say “We couldn’t have anticipated this” in regard to the levees? Studies have been done for years predicting just this sort of disaster. Oh, if you don’t know who “Brownie” is, you probably shouldn’t reply to all this.
For instance, the money raised to rebuild the levvies was used to dredge the canals making the local politicians richer.
For instance the 50,000 tons of food and water the Salvation Army wanted to bring in for relief was ordered out by the State Police under orders of the Governor.
For instance the Red Cross was ordered not to set up field stations before the hurricane by the Mayor’s office.
This is all true, which does nothing to absolve FEMA of responsibility. While you read govt propaganda, the rest of the world reads NewsWeek, Time, CNN, and even FoxNews, all of which have reported serious breakdowns in FEMA response: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/17/katrina.response/index.html
"(CNN) – As Hurricane Katrina bore down on the Gulf Coast three weeks ago, veteran workers at the Federal Emergency Management Agency braced for an epic disaster.
But their bosses, political appointees with almost no emergency management experience, didn’t seem to share the sense of urgency, a FEMA veteran said."
There is also the fact that Iraq stripped us of resources we could have used for Katrina.
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There is also the fact that Iraq stripped us of resources we could have used for Katrina.
I was unaware that there was insufficient resources - can you provide a link regarding this? After all 50,000 tons is a lot of food and water. And even if there were insufficient resources, can you provide evidence that this is directly caused by the Iraq war? I had thought the problem was a very inefficient use of resouces, not a lack of them.
As far as Bush being to blame - you are right. But there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone. Moreover, there are certainly people who deserve the blame more than Bush as they are more responsible for the catastrophe than he - Bush is just where the Buck Stops as a former President once said. But is there any evidence yet of criminal negligence? I haven’t seen any.
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The #1 thing I hate about politics these days is mainstream denial.
Democrats won’t admit that their party’s organization is in shambles. It’s always an optimistic, “we’re one step away”, outlook.
But the denial coming out of the other side isn’t even funny. Bush messed up, big time. We’re going to pay for his administration for years. You may defend is intentions, if you believe them, but his results are absolutely horrible.
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@marine36:
Bush cant be blamed for Katrina, but the Commies will continue to broadcast negative reports about Iraq, which seriously harms him. He shouldnt really care though, because hes not up for reelection.
Commies???
i wonder if this statement could be more based on ignorance. -
@221B:
I was unaware that there was insufficient resources - can you provide a link regarding this
"WASHINGTON – The National Guard’s scramble to bring aid and order to New Orleans and the Gulf Coast is hamstrung by the fact that units across the country have, on average, half their usual amount of equipment – helicopters, Humvees, trucks, and weapons – on hand because much of it has been siphoned off to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to military officials and security specialists.
The equipment the Guard needs to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is in shorter supply because the gear is in use in combat zones, is battle-damaged, or has been loaned to cover gaps in other units, the officials said. The National Guard Bureau estimates that its nationwide equipment availability rate is 35 percent, about half the normal level, according to Pentagon statistics."
And http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/09/katrina.natguard.ap/
“Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said that “arguably” a day or so of response time was lost due to the absence of the Mississippi National Guard’s 155th Infantry Brigade and Louisiana’s 256th Infantry Brigade, each with thousands of troops in Iraq.”
Remember, the Lousiniana National Guard was already at the Superdome on the 28th, and 3700 were called up on the 29th. (http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7870) How many people died in that “lost” day? We’ll probably never know, other than the fact they died needless deaths. Unless you think the Lt. Gen is lying for some reason (or incompetant, I guess).
@221B:
As far as Bush being to blame - you are right. But there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone. Moreover, there are certainly people who deserve the blame more than Bush as they are more responsible for the catastrophe than he - Bush is just where the Buck Stops as a former President once said. But is there any evidence yet of criminal negligence? I haven’t seen any.
There’s blame at all levels on this one. But criminal negligence? I might make a case that Bush’s appointing of inexperieced officials to top levels at FEMA was criminally negligent, but Congress approved it, so nothing will come of it.
Edit: Maybe CC can help on this point. If a hospital appoints someone with the wrong medical training to run a medically sensitive area, (e.g., a GP running an Oncology department), can that hospital be held criminally liable is a screw-up happens?
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Edit: Maybe CC can help on this point. If a hospital appoints someone with the wrong medical training to run a medically sensitive area, (e.g., a GP running an Oncology department), can that hospital be held criminally liable is a screw-up happens?
a VERY qualified “yes”.
However the chances of this happening are quite remote. Furthermore criminal liability is something that is too difficult to prove. A friend of mine is very involved with Cancer Care Manitoba, and he also runs the local pain clinic and he is “just a GP”, and yet he would be a good person to run an oncology program (IMHO).
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@cystic:
Edit: Maybe CC can help on this point. If a hospital appoints someone with the wrong medical training to run a medically sensitive area, (e.g., a GP running an Oncology department), can that hospital be held criminally liable is a screw-up happens?
a VERY qualified “yes”.
However the chances of this happening are quite remote. Furthermore criminal liability is something that is too difficult to prove. A friend of mine is very involved with Cancer Care Manitoba, and he also runs the local pain clinic and he is “just a GP”, and yet he would be a good person to run an oncology program (IMHO).
Well, I guess we won’t see Bush in cuffs ;)
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Mary,
Fair enough with the links, however they also provide caveats such as:
While officials said that Louisiana and Mississippi would need help from out-of-state Guard units even if their home militias were still there, the majority of the units that are coming to the Gulf Coast will take far longer to get to the disaster scene
and
Pentagon says it can handle both the disaster and Iraq war
so I find the claim that the Iraq war cost lives while not entirely convincing… certainly compelling … so I’ll concede that without the Iraq war, the recovery efforts would probably have been more efficient. However it is clear that the resources that were available were very poorly handled, so how much help would these additional resources have been? We can estimate like has been done in your sources, but we will never know for certain.
This doesn’t make the Iraq efforts necessarily wrong. For example, would the disasters that happened in WWII make that war effort wrong? Of course not. The validity of the Iraq war is the topic for another thread however.
As far as criminal neglegence, no charges will ever be brought against Bush… there is no smoking gun. But more importantly, there are people who are far more responsible for this debacle (mayor Nagin for example) who will see to it that this doesn’t happen for no other reason than to protect themselves.
Unrelated question: I hear a lot of comments such as
Well, I guess we won’t see Bush in cuffs
. Considering the cost of Nixon’s (soon to be) and Clinton’s impeachment on their ability to handle world affairs, would anyone really want Bush to have to deal with a similar issue and cause similar distractions from real problems?
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For instance, the money raised to rebuild the levvies was used to dredge the canals making the local politicians richer.
For instance the 50,000 tons of food and water the Salvation Army wanted to bring in for relief was ordered out by the State Police under orders of the Governor.
For instance the Red Cross was ordered not to set up field stations before the hurricane by the Mayor’s office.
This is all true, which does nothing to absolve FEMA of responsibility. While you read govt propaganda, the rest of the world reads NewsWeek, Time, CNN, and even FoxNews, all of which have reported serious breakdowns in FEMA response: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/17/katrina.response/index.html
"(CNN) – As Hurricane Katrina bore down on the Gulf Coast three weeks ago, veteran workers at the Federal Emergency Management Agency braced for an epic disaster.
But their bosses, political appointees with almost no emergency management experience, didn’t seem to share the sense of urgency, a FEMA veteran said."
There is also the fact that Iraq stripped us of resources we could have used for Katrina.
FEMA was built to assist local governments in recovering from disasters, not as a primary responder to a disaster. This is why they are understaffed to handle any major disaster in the country. They are well funded, mainly because their sole job was to write checks. “You need $100,000,000.00 to buy food, okay here you go.” “You need 40 Deuce-and-a-half trucks to haul medical supplies into that tornado ravaged area? Here you go.” ) It was never their job to run the disaster recovery. That’s always been the responsibility of the states!
Now we’re comming to the point where FEMA will be able to tell the local governor to go to hell, they’re declaring martial law and arresting everyone in the city, forcing them onto prison busses and using military force to make them leave. This is NOT a good road to be going down!
What’s to stop a president from ordering a nuclear weapon to go off in Chicago then sending in the 82nd Airborne supported by the F-16s in Northern Indiana, arresting the mayor and forcing the citizens at gunpoint to move into refugee camps just before, say, a major national election?
This is what FEMA will be able to do in the world you want. In the world as it stands FEMA can’t do anything but aid the state and local governments, who can proceed as they see fit. This is a much better istuation because if hte states over step their bounds, the feds can step in and resolve it before we get to refugee camps and liquidations of dissidents.
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@cystic:
Edit: Maybe CC can help on this point. If a hospital appoints someone with the wrong medical training to run a medically sensitive area, (e.g., a GP running an Oncology department), can that hospital be held criminally liable is a screw-up happens?
a VERY qualified “yes”.
However the chances of this happening are quite remote. Furthermore criminal liability is something that is too difficult to prove. A friend of mine is very involved with Cancer Care Manitoba, and he also runs the local pain clinic and he is “just a GP”, and yet he would be a good person to run an oncology program (IMHO).
And this is exactly why the Mayor and Governor of Louisianna should be in jail pending a trial by a jury of New Orleans citizens for their crimes against humanity in the regards to not following their own evacuation proceedures and plans, failure to utilize funds earmarked for rebuilding of the levvies for the levvies and failure to allow aid to enter the state when an emergency encroached.
I’m not saying the ex-leader of FEMA was a saint or couldn’t have done a better job. I’m just saying let’s put the brunt of the blame on the people who deserve it, ie the ones that should have known better and failed to act appropriately.
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Just a question: If we’re so out of money, how come we can spend 200 billion to fix New Orleans and the Gulf Coast?
This disaster would never have happened if the Governor and the Mayor of Louisiana hadn’t syphoned off state funding for the levies into a casino. (Which has now been destroyed by the way :lol: )
Can’t trust politicians anywhere.
Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate” -
Bush is screwed. He was screwed because of the time he was elected. Not to say he hasn’t made mistakes. He has made A BUNCH! But no president could get re-elected with the random crap he inherited. 911, corporate scandal, massive huricanes (not just katrina, 4 hit Florida last year), gas prices going through the roof, the list goes on.
He could not do much about a lot of this, but as they say “the buck stops here”.
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Bush is screwed. He was screwed because of the time he was elected. Not to say he hasn’t made mistakes. He has made A BUNCH! But no president could get re-elected with the random crap he inherited. 911, corporate scandal, massive huricanes (not just katrina, 4 hit Florida last year), gas prices going through the roof, the list goes on.
He could not do much about a lot of this, but as they say “the buck stops here”.
I think 9/11 resurrected Bush’s presidency. But it’s all been downhill from there.
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It couldn’t have been THAT downhill he did win reelection 3 yrs after 9/11.
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His opponent was John Kerry.
A monkey in a suit could beat John Kerry.
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:lol:
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Bush is screwed. He was screwed because of the time he was elected. Not to say he hasn’t made mistakes. He has made A BUNCH! But no president could get re-elected with the random crap he inherited.
he did reasonably well with the crap tho’ . . . until now.
911
i really have trouble blaming this on Clinton (or Bush Sr. for that matter). Clinton bombed 3 facilities believed to be terrorist sites (including an aspirin factory). Furthermore 9/11 did NOT happen on Clinton’s watch - why was that? My guess is that they figured that he would handle it better than Bush would.
corporate scandal
puuuhhhh lease!
This guy invites corporate scandal. Haliburton? Chaney? Tax cuts for the rich while begging congress for cash for Iraq?
nope - not feeling sorry for him.massive huricanes (not just katrina, 4 hit Florida last year)
if he actually showed LEADERSHIP instead of keeping his head low, this could be an excellent opportunity for him. The stupid dummy.
gas prices going through the roof
again - not feeling too sorry for him. This is benefitting his friends quite well. I kind of wonder if he could actually control these if he really wanted. Too bad Iraq is such a big clusterf**k that he can’t even make use of his ability to steal the oil he had hoped for. Ahh well - he’ll live.
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