Cutting the Italian legs out from under the axis

[CalmDragon]

@Cmdr:

@Subotai:

@Cmdr:

PS:  Tech is not optional.  It’s included in the main body of the rules, it’s never included in the section at the end of the manual with the optional rules.

Both tech and NOs are optional rules, just check the factsheet: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12601.0

Sorry, but the only optional rules on your link are the closing off of SZ 16 and escort fighters for SBR missions.

Nothing in there says that National Objectives or Technologies are “optional.”

I think you are just really, REALLY hoping they are optional.  They are not.  They’re part of the main rules.  If you want to have house rules to disqualify technology that’s fine, but those are house rules, not out of the box rules.

And really, technology is much improved in Anniversary.  You have the targeted technology of Revised with the randomness of Classic. (You can select your chart, so it’s targeted in a way, but it’s still random which one you get on that chart.)

Page 11 of the rulebook under Phase 1: Research & Development it states “Note: This is an option rule–players should decide whether or not this phase will be included in their game.”  I always play with Research & Development i.e. “Tech”, but it does say on page 11 that this phase is optional.
And on Page 22 under Phase 7 where it lists the Nation Objectives & Bonus Income it says “Note: This is an option rule–players should decide whether or not this rule will be included in their game.”  I always play with NOs, but it is an optional rule.  :wink:

[Lucifer]

@Cmdr:

Sorry, but the only optional rules on your link are the closing off of SZ 16 and escort fighters for SBR missions.

Nothing in there says that National Objectives or Technologies are “optional.”

I think you are just really, REALLY hoping they are optional.  They are not.  They’re part of the main rules.  If you want to have house rules to disqualify technology that’s fine, but those are house rules, not out of the box rules.

We can have Krieghund confirm it then if you don’t believe me. NOs, tech, SBR interception rules and closing of the Dardanelles are all optional rules. If you’re playing OOB rules then none of this can be included.

[wally]

Why do I get the feeling that Jennifer is trying to antagonize people?

The rules are quite simple when they are written down in the rulebook. There really shouldn’t be any kind of argument when the book is quite clear. Read Calm Dragon’s post. Can that be the end of this childish argument please?

Back on topic: Italy. I have made up my mind to use an Italy First strategy with the UK in the game I will be playing today. I will let you folks know how it works out.

[axis_roll]

@wally:

Why do I get the feeling that Jennifer is trying to antagonize people?

The rules are quite simple when they are written down in the rulebook. There really shouldn’t be any kind of argument when the book is quite clear. Read Calm Dragon’s post. Can that be the end of this childish argument please?

Back on topic: Italy. I have made up my mind to use an Italy First strategy with the UK in the game I will be playing today. I will let you folks know how it works out.

Do you have further details?

Will you flood africa with ground units (using both US and UK)

or

try to go right for the Italian navy buying air force with UK and trying to hold Transjordan thru UK 2 to finish the med fleet

or

a combination of both (ground units, navy, planes) moving into the Med in round 4 or so to threaten not only the Med fleet, but Italy as well?

I know what you ‘actually’ do is dependant upon the axis moves, but you should have a plan/idea of which of the above three you plan to implement.

Care to share?

[wally]

I’m going to try a balanced air and naval approach. I am assuming that most of my navy is destroyed on round one, and that after wards my opponent shifts his air power to the eastern front. (I’ve played him alot so I’m certain he will do this) A carrier and pair of fighters on B1 will provide a good defense while I prepare a force to invade Africa.

The United States will be putting pressure on Japan, but depending on the situation, I could send a few ships into Africa if the Brits need help, but for the most part, this is going to be a British invasion force.

[Jennifer]

The problem with balanced air/navy is two fold.

On the one hand you don’t have enough navy to really defend yourself against German air attacks.

On the other hand you don’t have enough air power to sink the Italian fleet.

Not saying I have the solution, just giving some perspective to think about.

[wally]

the aircraft carrier solves this dilemma I think. It gives you a surface ship (although one with low stats) and a pair of fighters who have a rock hard defense and excellent striking range.

[Jennifer]

I agree, carriers are great in that regard.

IMHO, England would be well suited with 3 battleships, 5 cruisers, 4 transports though.  This gives you 8 bombardments, 8 ground assault units and locks the Italians in the Med where American can come in and sink them at their leisure.

[bugoo]

On Turn 1 have the UK rally troops in persia from trans-jordan and India and purchase 3 cruisers and a trannie.  US 1 purchase an AC, trannie, and armor. (minimum).  UK2 hit algeria and trans-jordan with fleet, land fighters on US carrier.  US2 land in algeria and backup UK fleet, land fighters in algeria, bombers in UK if you desire.  UK3 crush Italy fleet, OR land in Italy if fleet is not in the way.  Push to egypt and lybia if possible.  US repeats.

This gives your fleet defense from german air, is large enough to take out Italian fleet, or you may get luck and grab Italy herself, or on UK3 buy more boats and hit france, or northwest europe and norway.  That small surge of US troops and boats gives you control of the atlantic and Africa.  All the US devoted was an AC and possibly some fighters.  You could also purchase 1 BB 2 destroyers on UK1, which I actually think I prefer but i’m not sure, I really like 3 bombards.

[axis_roll]

@Trisdin:

The fact is Cmdr Jennifer, instead of suddenly deciding to get back on topic, don’t you think you should admit you were wrong first?

don’t hold your breathe Trisdin

[Jennifer]

@axis_roll:

@Trisdin:

The fact is Cmdr Jennifer, instead of suddenly deciding to get back on topic, don’t you think you should admit you were wrong first?

don’t hold your breathe Trisdin

Why should he?  You and U-505 and the others never admit when they are wrong, and you guys are often wrong.

Yes, Page 11 does state it is an optional rule.  It is the very first time that tech has been optional.  It was a stupid move on the part of the game manufacturer.

As for demanding that a member admit their strategy was wrong because I “thought” it was impossible is a really stupid statement.  I proved it was impossible without the most stupid person playing Russia ever to grace the face of the earth.  Even then, all I did was force him to revise his stance and say it would take more than 3 rounds to achieve, in reality, closer to 5 or 6 if everything went well.

Honestly, Trisdin, you really should get your facts in a row before going off on a crusade.

As for insulting the intelligence of others, I have never done so.  I have only stated that certain strategies are stupid as in unwise and then demonstrated why.  Certain in-duh-viduals like to pretend that my attacks on their strategies are personal insults against them, when in reality they are just demonstrations on their statements being invalid, silly and/or unintelligent.  Not my fault some people think any disagreement at all is a personal attack against them. (I call these people “bleeding hearts” since they happen to have very similar political opinions and they generally are not the same as my political opinions.)

[Jennifer]

Yes, I can be hard on people’s ideas.  I will never call someone a bad person, but I might call their ideas uninformed or even stupid.  I’ll even say their posts demonstrate their inferior game play or strategy when I think it is true.  But none of that is a personal attack against the person.

Heck, when I first started playing Axis and Allies against players on the internet (back in the dark ages when we had 4800 BAUD modems, not even at the 14.4k technology mark yet!) I had some really stupid ideas of how to play the game (including America always buying 1 Battleship, 1 Submarine or Transport each round, this was classic of course.)

It took good players telling me my ideas were stupid and my game play inferior to help me develop better ideas and superior game play.  I’m hardly the best player, but I’m inconceivably better than I was! (Inconceivable because you really have to understand how bad I used to be to realize how much better I am now!)

[ogrebait]

@Trisdin:

I have a question about Italy…. I feel as though Italy has three options, supply and protect France, Attack Ukraine and Caucasus or invade Egypt and push into Africa. Is it possible for Italy to accomplish all 3 of these objectives and in what order of importance?

I don’t think Italy can do all three at once. Heck, sometimes doing one of them is a challenge.

The answer of which comes first depends a lot on what the Allies and Germany do. The first issue is whether the Italian Navy survived UK1. If they didn’t, you are pretty much stuck with reinforcing Europe until Germany and Japan can secure the Med.

If the Navy is alive, then Italy should almost always make an initial bid for Africa & TRJ to secure the Suez and gain an NO. What happens next depends on how strong the Allies press into Africa and how well the German assault on Russia is going. If the Russian front is going well for Germany, an Italian assault via the Black Sea can quicken the end. If the Allies are not putting up a big fight in Africa (which means they are probably pressing Germany and/or Japan), then feel free to pillage Africa for IPCs.

I beginning to think that Italy is one of the hardest countries to play well. It involves a little luck and a great deal of initial help from Germany and then Japan. The greatest challenge for the Italian player is to build a critical mass of units and IPCs so he/she can remain relevant for the rest of the game.

From the Allied perspective, I think pounding down Italy should be one of their primary objectives early in the game. If the Italian Navy is eliminated and Italy rolled back to 9 IPCs/turn, the battle for Europe can quickly turn against the Axis.

[bugoo]

The big problem with Italy is you can’t do anything on your own.  But you are the Russian of the Axis.  Leave you alone and you can come back to bite them, and you can cost the Allies alot of time and money as they try to kill you.  And just like Russia, if your fellow Axis back you up, they can make you last alot longer.  Weather it is Japan’s navy protecting yours, or Germany pounding on egypt, without there help you are lost.

[ogrebait]

@Trisdin:

So you are saying that Germany should send a small force to Africa to help Italy and in turn Italy should help Germany in Europe?

Italy generally needs Germany’s help in Africa early, and Germany needs Italy’s help in Europe later. It’s mainly a timing issue.

[Jennifer]

IMHO:

Italy needs to look out for itself early in the game.  Primary goals in the beginning should be getting the national objectives and taking out Africa.

After that has been accomplished, Italy needs to decide if Germany needs them to take Ukraine in the East or Stack France with defenders and free up Germans to move east.

That really depends on how the game has progressed.  Sometimes Italy needs to take Ukraine so Germany can follow up with fighters to defend it and then can stack France.  Sometimes Italy just cannot even get Africa established and thus can’t do much of anything.  Sometimes, Germany’s doing well and could use the extra troops to finish off Russia faster so Italy can just dump 6 units a round into the defense of France.

Other things I’ve seen Italy do:

Take Australia
Take Brazil
Sink the British Navy
Take China (1942 game with A44bigdog, see link in my signature.)

[Bigtiti]

@shifty:

It seems that each time I’ve played that the Axis have won, Italy has played SOME sort of role during the course of the battle.  Whether it’s taking Africa, pounding Cauc, help against UK navy, taking islands, or just providing extra defense in EU, Italy always plays its part.

I know that this is an IF situation and probably not original, but i haven’t seen it here in the forum so I figured i’d throw it out here.  Anyways, If Germany doesn’t attack SZ12 and the Egyptian fighter survives, I’ve found attacking the Italian fleet with the UK Cruiser, Bomber, Fighter, Destroyer severely inhibits Italy from doing much of anything the rest of the game.  I realize that the chances of success (Italy losing all units) is only about 60%, but putting them down 51 ipcs when they are only making 10 is worth the loss in units and UK makes enough early game to easily replace that loss.

I’ve manage to try it twice and it worked both times.  After that, the other players in my group caught on and began attacking SZ12 w/subs (thus letting my battleship survive) or fighters/bomber which at least took out some of the Germany air and kept them distracted.

i just take gibraltar and leave tranny where it started
know, i’m no fan of egypt attack
saw it a few times go horribly wrong

[TimTheEnchanter]

@Cmdr:

As for insulting the intelligence of others, I have never done so…
…Certain in-duh-viduals…

:lol: It takes some serious gall to put those two statements in the same paragraph and even attempt to sound serious about it. :lol:

[Jennifer]

in-duh-viduals is not an insult of the intelligence of others.  It’s a loving homage to the valiant and graceful works of Scott Adams, Tim!

---

Egypt can go badly, Frontovik, but you can retreat part of the German forces if you have too. (Anything that did not come by transport can retreat.)

However, if you leave the transport in SZ 14, you can use it with Italy saving you some Italian cash!

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

However, if you leave the transport in SZ 14, you can use it with Italy saving you some Italian cash!

Thats a good idea however, it takes a special kind of axis player to pull off the German transport with Italian troops convoy to Africa (round after round) as the order of play in 41 makes it tricky.