Cheese move


  • 2007 AAR League

    Im forced to accept the cheesy halftrack unloading a troop into a territory with a soldier already, thoes earning a free cheesy extra move out of the hex.

    How bout the hero deployment? does that work too? It says deploy a hero in any territory with a soldier. Can’t I just deploy him in a territory with 2 soldiers, and get a free cheesy extra move out of the hex?

    Also, if a flamer is disrupted (-1 to attack roll), what happens if that unit rolls 3 6s? Does this count as instant death? Or does being disrupted COMPLETELY nullify the flamethrower ability?
    If this is indeed the case, than would any unit that adds +1 to your roll mean that any 5 rolled by a flamer unit really count as a 6 in regards to 3 6s instant death? If one, then the other makes sense, but what is the official ruling? Maybe the intention is that every and only natural 6s count, regardless of modifiers.



  • @mateooo:

    Im forced to accept the cheesy halftrack unloading a troop into a territory with a soldier already, thoes earning a free cheesy extra move out of the hex.

    Its not that bad, considering the soldiers have to give up their move to load anyway.

    How bout the hero deployment? does that work too? It says deploy a hero in any territory with a soldier. Can’t I just deploy him in a territory with 2 soldiers, and get a free cheesy extra move out of the hex?

    No I dont think so, because it would break stacking rule.  He deploys at the start of the Move phase.  If he deployed on his own move and could then immediately move that might actually work because you check for overstacking at the end of each units move (which is why you can drive through a hex that is at its max capacity).

    Also, if a flamer is disrupted (-1 to attack roll), what happens if that unit rolls 3 6s? Does this count as instant death? Or does being disrupted COMPLETELY nullify the flamethrower ability?
    If this is indeed the case, than would any unit that adds +1 to your roll mean that any 5 rolled by a flamer unit really count as a 6 in regards to 3 6s instant death? If one, then the other makes sense, but what is the official ruling? Maybe the intention is that every and only natural 6s count, regardless of modifiers.

    If it say roll a six, it means it literally.  I’ve seen that ruling, its natural only.  Bonus (plus or minus) dont effect that special effect.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I happen to agree that the unloading rule is f***ed up – why should the troops get an EXTRA move because of congestion?  If anything, they should move LESS, not more.  I think this is one of those rules that is designed to make the game resolve quickly, which is certainly one of the game’s strengths.  But logically, it makes NO sense whatsoever.

    As for the flamethrowers, speaking with the bias of one who usually plays Axis (at least, FTF), I think they are underpriced at 5 IPCs.  So anything that limits their effectiveness is just fine with me.  At least, until they are re-priced to 6-7 IPCs, which is their true value IMO.  I mean, a freaking Panzergrenadier costs 5 IPCs and it DOESN’T DO SHIT!!!


  • 2007 AAR League

    but panzerfausts are WAY better than flamers, with a medium range vehicle attack, close ASSAULT ELEVEN against vehicles, and they cost 5 too.

    flamers can do few things well, and that is kill soldiers and halftracks at very close range, and maybe damage a light tank. Flamers cost 5 and how many soldiers are worth more than 5? you basically have to sacrifice that flamer to get close enough to actually kill anything, and most times you are just killing a soldier.

    Ild rather lose a soldier or 2 to a flamer, then a medium or heavy tank to a panzerfaust.



  • So now I’m confused about the hero.  Can he deploy in a full hex?


  • 2007 AAR League

    it seems that he can. Of course, I dont know what happens if the player doesnt move him out. Does the unit get forced out? Or does some other unit? Who desides?



  • @mateooo:

    it seems that he can. Of course, I dont know what happens if the player doesnt move him out. Does the unit get forced out? Or does some other unit? Who desides?

    In past games, I’ve always made room for the hero before I deployed him…

    Mot what’s the deal?



  • @Gamer:

    I happen to agree that the unloading rule is f***ed up – why should the troops get an EXTRA move because of congestion?  If anything, they should move LESS, not more.  I think this is one of those rules that is designed to make the game resolve quickly, which is certainly one of the game’s strengths.  But logically, it makes NO sense whatsoever.

    I think ALL Infantry should be able to move 1 hex after unloading.  Each turn represents about a minute and each hex a hundred yards.  Whether they start in a fox-hole, or handing off the back of a truck, the soldiers can still run the same distance.  I dont see what the fuss is.



  • @Half-Track:

    So now I’m confused about the hero.  Can he deploy in a full hex?

    No.  “Deploy” is defined in the rulebook, and part of that set of rules states that you cannot break stacking limits.


  • 2007 AAR League

    The rules also state that the stacking rule can be broken TEMPORARILY during the movement phase as long as it is not broken at the end of the phase. To quote “the stacking limit applies only at the end of each units move”

    It seems to me, if a hero has been deployed, he has not yet completely his movement, nor has the other unit, so i it seems to me heros COULD be deployed as long as one of the units moves out of the hex before completing there movement.



  • He deploys at the start of the Move phase, meaning before any unit moves.

    Deployment is seperate from movement, and there are well-defined rules for deployment.  It states explicilty that you cannot deploy more than two units per hex.

    I will look up the official ruling when I get more of a chance.



  • @mateooo:

    The rules also state that the stacking rule can be broken TEMPORARILY during the movement phase as long as it is not broken at the end of the phase. To quote “the stacking limit applies only at the end of each units move”

    You said it yourself.  Its not the endof the move PHASE, its the end of each UNITS move.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @mateooo:

    but panzerfausts are WAY better than flamers, with a medium range vehicle attack, close ASSAULT ELEVEN against vehicles, and they cost 5 too.

    flamers can do few things well, and that is kill soldiers and halftracks at very close range, and maybe damage a light tank. Flamers cost 5 and how many soldiers are worth more than 5? you basically have to sacrifice that flamer to get close enough to actually kill anything, and most times you are just killing a soldier.

    Ild rather lose a soldier or 2 to a flamer, then a medium or heavy tank to a panzerfaust.

    Okay, Mr. Medical School Graduate – do they teach you to READ in medical school?  I said PANZERGRENADIER


  • 2007 AAR League

    I hit enter too soon – I said PANZERGRENADIER, not Panzerfaust!!! (and the Panzerfaust costs 7 points, not 5).


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Gamer:

    I hit enter too soon – I said PANZERGRENADIER, not Panzerfaust!!! (and the Panzerfaust costs 7 points, not 5).

    Mr. Law School Graduate. Do they teach YOU to READ in Law school?  😮 The PanzerFAUST costs 5. The panzerSCHRECK costs 7.  :evil:

    Also, I know you said panzergrenadier, but I was making a comparison between two different units (flamer vs faust)

    Flamer vs grenadier… I might prefer the flamer, unless it was an open map.
    Flamer vs Faust… I might prefer the faust.

    In regards to the hero deployment, I can see both sides. But the hero rule is

    “This unit doesn’t get placed on the battle map during deployment. At the beginning of any of your movement phases, you may deploy this unit in any hex that contains a friendly X Soldier.”

    therefore, this statement “Deployment is seperate from movement, and there are well-defined rules for deployment.  It states explicilty that you cannot deploy more than two units per hex,” DOES NOT APPLY.

    Of course, the official interpretation is the official interpretation. The official “ruling” on the cheese halftrack deployment stacking issue is TOTALLY UNINTUITIVE. so I would not be surprised whichever way the official interpretation of this rule went.  But my intuition would be that it is alright to place the hero in an overstacked hex, as long as a unit leaves during the movement phase.


  • 2007 AAR League

    It figures a Doctor would totally ignore the example put in front of him and come up with a completely different example that no one was talking about . . . but since you mention the Panzerfaust, I disagree for at least three reasons:  (1) who cares about the 6 dice at medium range?  How many tanks have you killed rolling 6 dice?  Not many.  Okay, I can kill the lousy half-track with six dice – the same turn my Panzerfaust dies getting fried by your flamethrower that your half-track just dropped off; (2) your flamethrower is good against troops and tanks – 7 dice at short range vs. 4 for the Panzerfaust.  Again, how many troops are you killing with 4 dice?  (3) instant kill on three 6’s is damn powerful, I don’t care how “rare” it supposedly is.  We’re talking tanks, troops, HEROS, anybody.  And for only 5 bucks?  Come on, the Panzerfaust isn’t anywhere close to being that powerful.  You may only have a 5% chance or whatever of rolling three 6s, but the Panzerfaust has a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE of killing anything instantly with no chance to roll a defense.  And because of the CHANCE the Flamethrower can fry you instantly, it changes how you play the game as the Axis.  You have to take that power into account.  So there’s no way a flamer should cost the same as a lousy Panzerfaust.  You’ll never convice me of that one.  A panzerfaust is basically a slightly more powerful bazooka, nothing more. 😛


  • 2007 AAR League

    shrug. i disagree, but thats allright.
    instant death is a bit overrated, since it only works when you win initiative, and the germans have the best 3 initiative commander… who really wants a screaming eagle captain?

    I dont think the flamer is underpriced, i think the HALF TRACK is underpriced, making a lot of other reasonably priced units more powerful than perhaps they should be. (3 halftracks with 3 panzerfausts is just about as scary to my heavy tank as 3 halftracks with 3 flamers.)



  • @mateooo:

    In regards to the hero deployment, I can see both sides. But the hero rule is

    “This unit doesn’t get placed on the battle map during deployment. At the beginning of any of your movement phases, you may deploy this unit in any hex that contains a friendly X Soldier.”

    therefore, this statement “Deployment is seperate from movement, and there are well-defined rules for deployment.  It states explicilty that you cannot deploy more than two units per hex,” DOES NOT APPLY.

    So by your logic, its ok to deply 10 Infantry in the saem hex as lonas by the end of Move 1 they have all moved into seperate hexes?

    What I mean about deployment being seperate is that there are seperate and distinct rules for each aspect of the game.  One cannot merge them togther like I just described.

    And just to give the official answer:

    http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=14567


  • 2007 AAR League

    Mateo, point taken about the half-tracks.  If you increase the price of half-tracks, the flamer problem drops considerably. On their own, they can’t land right next to you (from halfway across the map) and fry you in the same turn.

    Mot’s point about phases is well taken.  It would be like trying to do combat and noncombat moves at the same time in Revised.  You must complete one phase before moving on to the next phase, and deployment is a distinct phase of the game (even under the special Hero rules).


  • 2007 AAR League

    interesting… so you can place in a hex with a soldier on a halftrack (since the transported unit does not count toward the overstacking rule), but you can not place the hero in a hex with a soldier with, but not on a halftrack…



  • Yep, that’s true.  Of course, you can replace the hero in your example with any soldier and that true.  The Hero does change that scenario.

    I dont write the rules, I just memorize them  😄


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Gamer:

    Mateo, point taken about the half-tracks.

    my world is falling apart. 2 + 2 = 5. Black is white. People are dying in zebra crossings everywhere. The gate is up. Everything spinning. Gamer has agreed with me.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @mateooo:

    @Gamer:

    Mateo, point taken about the half-tracks.

    my world is falling apart. 2 + 2 = 5. Black is white. People are dying in zebra crossings everywhere. The gate is up. Everything spinning. Gamer has agreed with me.

    Yes, but I still think flamers are underpriced.  They should be 5.5 points. 😛


  • 2007 AAR League

    I vote to kick Gamer off the island.


  • 2019 Moderator

    I think Flamers shold have a negative special ability,

    Explosive Death Any units in the same hex with a Flamer that is detroyed rolls six dice to see if it died in the firey blaze when the flamer was hit.

    😄


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