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Noob Question Regarding Land Units VS Air Units and Submerged Subs



  • Hello,

    I just bought the game Axis and Allies revised.  I had some friends come over and we tried to play a game within 4 hours lol.  Didn’t happen, we spent most of the time arguing over little discrepancies  and digging through the rule book.  We didn’t even complete a whole turn(USSR, Germany, UK, Japan, US).

    Anyway, I’m wondering how exactly land and sea units interact with enemy air units.  The rule book doesn’t seem to clarify how they interact.  Realistically speaking, a soldier and tank couldn’t engage a plane, but if thats how this works then one plane could destroy 30 infantry and 30 tanks in one engagement.  The player with the plane would just keep rolling the die until they’re all gone.

    Or does it work like the plane gets to roll one attack die, then combat ends and the plane has to find a landing zone etc?

    Another question I have is how the submerged subs work.  Can they only submerge during the “retreat or attack phase”?  Or can you keep a sub submerged and move it around the board?



  • I don’t recall what classifications the rulebook gives for units, but I’m gonna go with sea, air, and land.

    Land attack land and air units.
    Sea units attack sea and air units (exceptions being: battleships or destroyers can bombard land units, and subs can’t hit air units).
    Air units attack land, sea, and air units.

    So units just participate in an attack like it says in the rules. Attacker fires and hits, defender fires and hits, casualties are removed. There are special circumstances like subs using sneak attack, battleships bombarding, etc, but otherwise it’s those three steps.

    I mean, sea units can’t go onto the land, and land units can’t go onto the sea–though they are cargo on transports or destroyers–so the only time you have any ‘crossover’ is with air units. And they can hit anything.

    With subs, once again I may not be 100% correct, but I believe they can only submerge, yeah, during the retreat phase. At that point they are officially ‘tipped’ to indicate that they’re submerged. They can’t move for the rest of the turn, and I think they can’t impede non-combat movement either–but don’t quote me on that. At the end of the turn or during some end-of-turn phase, like placement maybe, any tipped subs become untipped, and are no longer submerged. In AAE (and maybe AAP?) subs couldn’t be hit with enemy air unless an enemy destroyer was also in the attack. AAR reverted to the A&A rule where air can hit subs. At least subs can submerge now.



  • Planes work like normal units, only they fly.

    If you have one fighter vs. 30 infantry and 30 tanks, then the fighters will roll once, kill a unit, and they annihilated by the return fire of the 30 infantry and 30 tanks.



  • Ok, that makes sense.  Thanks for the speedy replies.  I think this game is pretty fun, just takes allot of time to finish it.  Hopefully we’ll get the hang of it soon.



  • @Heckler409:

    Ok, that makes sense.  Thanks for the speedy replies.  I think this game is pretty fun, just takes allot of time to finish it.  Hopefully we’ll get the hang of it soon.

    If it takes too long just play minor victory.

    Regarding the discrepancies you should use the revised “LHTR” instead of the original out of box (OOB) rulebook. Its less ambigious.

    LHTR also got rid of a few game breaking loopholes and unintended typos.

    Minor victory in LHTR you team wins by holding 9 VC at end of round.



  • Naw, if you really wanna cut down on time, make it 8 VC.  8 VC games are pretty fast and brutal.

    The Axis go after Karelia (easy for the Axis), and India (pretty darn easy for the Axis).  The Allies poop their pants trying to stop them.  Great fun.

    Also, leave out the National Advantages for now - too much to remember and time spent rulebook referencing.



  • We where trying to play the minor victory but none of us really knew what we were doing.  We almost just played the whole game like risk but with the cost and traits of the different units.  None of us wanted to do that so we attempted to give the whole game a go, with no faction specific advantages.  I would love to give that a try when we get this game down.

    I thought I had the most up to date version of the game, I went to “Avalon hill games” and downloaded a 2004 pdf.  It looks the same as the OOB I have.  I should probably go dig around for this LHTR version.

    I did quite a bit of digging here in these forums and saw some of the typos posted up.  Some of them seem like common sense, others have quite a different meaning.  Cool game none the less.

    Whats the specifics on Liberating Capitals?  My bud was playing Germany, and thought that it would be tremendously hard to take Russia if he took the capitol and I pumped out units from the UK and USA in Moscow every turn.  My understanding was that Russia wouldn’t collect any money with that one capitol being under German control and that it would be too expensive to continue to pump out units.  Also, I would guess that once all of the Russian territory was under German control, Russia just wouldn’t exist and then the UK and USA couldn’t produce units in Moscow.  I guess what I’m looking for here is an explanation of how this is balanced.

    I keep seeing something about bidding.  I think I understand the concept but which one of the two sides is at the disadvantage?  Or is it just a perception(ie, I like the allies and so does my bud, I’ll give my bud an extra 9 dollars to play axis).

    So whats the deal with these addons battle of the bulge and the Pacific?  Do they add to the vanilla game or are they separate all together?  Which ones are funner to play?



  • @Heckler409:

    We where trying to play the minor victory but none of us really knew what we were doing.  We almost just played the whole game like risk but with the cost and traits of the different units.  None of us wanted to do that so we attempted to give the whole game a go, with no faction specific advantages.  I would love to give that a try when we get this game down.

    I thought I had the most up to date version of the game, I went to “Avalon hill games” and downloaded a 2004 pdf.  It looks the same as the OOB I have.  I should probably go dig around for this LHTR version.

    I did quite a bit of digging here in these forums and saw some of the typos posted up.  Some of them seem like common sense, others have quite a different meaning.  Cool game none the less.

    You can get the latest LHTR from this site.  Here’s the link

    Whats the specifics on Liberating Capitals?  My bud was playing Germany, and thought that it would be tremendously hard to take Russia if he took the capitol and I pumped out units from the UK and USA in Moscow every turn.  My understanding was that Russia wouldn’t collect any money with that one capitol being under German control and that it would be too expensive to continue to pump out units.  Also, I would guess that once all of the Russian territory was under German control, Russia just wouldn’t exist and then the UK and USA couldn’t produce units in Moscow.  I guess what I’m looking for here is an explanation of how this is balanced.

    Not sure I understand what your saying, but I don’t think it works the way you think it does.  When Germany captures Moscow and holds it for a turn, it is Germany who can build units there.  If the US or UK liberate a non-capital territory from the axis that was russian at the start of the game (e.g. Caucasus) while the germans control moscow that occupying ally can collect money for and build units in that territory.  (Note that the ally must liberate the territory- i.e., take it from the axis.  If Caucus is “red” when Moscow falls and the US and UK protect it, NOBODY can collect income for or build units in that territory) If Moscow is russian, it is only Russia who earns money and can builds there.  Once the allies liberate moscow itself, ALL liberated territories that were Russian at the beginning of the game, and any ICs and AA Guns in them revert control to russia.

    Put another way, Either Axis power can build in Moscow if they capture it, but the ONLY one of the Allies who can ever build in moscow is russia.

    I keep seeing something about bidding.  I think I understand the concept but which one of the two sides is at the disadvantage?  Or is it just a perception(ie, I like the allies and so does my bud, I’ll give my bud an extra 9 dollars to play axis).

    The general consensus is that for equally skilled players, the Allies have a distinct advantage.  Bidding is the amount extra you think you need to take the Axis.  Note this is extra, not taken from the opponent.  Bidding can either be done by starting with a high value and the two sides alternately going lower and lower until someone says they won’t go any farther, or by using a website (e.g., http://frood.net/aacalc/makegame/ ) which allows “blind” bids to be placed, with the lower value getting the axis.  Different places have different rules about how you can use the bid (some require no more than one unit in a territory, some only let you use part of it on units, etc) so make sure you understand the rules before you decide on a bid amount.



  • I was way off on the liberated city part.  I was under the impression that when Germany took Moscow, the UK and USA could produce units right there(in Moscow).  I guess the OOB was referring to the ability to move allied units into previously owned Russian space and if they took that piece of land, they could produce units on it as long as they either build a production doodad or one was previously on it.  I think I got this now, thanks.

    On bids, I think I can see why The axis is at a disadvantage.  I think it’ll be some time before I even offer a bid to the other player, I need some more playing time.

    Disregard that third question, I looked into the “addons” and saw that they were separate games.

    Thanks for the info, it clears quite a few things up.


  • Official Answers

    Just to make sure that building units is perfectly clear:  🙂

    Units can only be mobilized in a territory that the country has owned since the beginning of its turn and contains an industrial complex (IC).  An IC is always owned by the country that owns the territory it is in.  A country can never mobilize units at an IC that belongs to another country.

    If Germany takes Karelia, the IC in Karelia becomes owned by Germany, and Germany may mobilize units there on the following turn (assuming it still owns Karelia at the beginning of that turn).  If any Allied country takes Karelia back from Germany and the USSR owns Russia, Karelia is “liberated” and its IC revert to the USSR.  If any Allied country takes Karelia back from Germany and the USSR does not own Russia, Karelia is “captured” and that country owns Karelia and its IC.  If any Allied country takes Russia back from the Axis, Russia is “liberated” and reverts to the USSR, along with any other red territories held by the US or UK.  A country can never “capture” the capital of an ally - it always “liberates” it.

    So, the only way that the US or UK may mobilize units in an IC in a red territory is if the Axis has captured both that territory and Russia, and then the US or UK recaptures that territory from the Axis while the Axis still holds Russia.  Until Russia is liberated, the US or UK will own that red territory and may use the IC there.

    Does all this make sense?



  • I think I understand it now.

    So basically, unless Russia is completely wiped off the map, anytime an allied force takes back the capitol, all previously owned “reddish brown” territories that allies control will revert back to Russia.  If Russia is wiped off the map, and an allied force takes the capitol, then that allied force gets to keep that capitol and any other piece of land it takes along the way.

    I’m sorry, I need to add another question in here.  Can the aircraft carrier fire on it’s own or is it like the transport?


  • Official Answers

    @Heckler409:

    I think I understand it now.

    So basically, unless Russia is completely wiped off the map, anytime an allied force takes back the capitol, all previously owned “reddish brown” territories that allies control will revert back to Russia.  If Russia is wiped off the map, and an allied force takes the capitol, then that allied force gets to keep that capitol and any other piece of land it takes along the way.

    Not exactly.  Any time a country’s capital is liberated by an ally, that country gets its capital back, along with any other of its original territories controlled by allied countries at the time.  It doesn’t matter if that country has been “wiped off the map” or not.

    @Heckler409:

    I’m sorry, I need to add another question in here.  Can the aircraft carrier fire on it’s own or is it like the transport?

    Yes, a carrier can fire, but so can a transport if it’s defending.



  • wow… I’ve completely missed quite a few important bits of information here.  I didn’t think the transport could ever fire.  Ok, I think I have enough info here to get a game going.  Thanks for taking the time and answering my questions.



  • You’ve been loaded up with rules answers, but I do want to chime in about other versions of A&A. None of the standard ones are an expansion of any others. Axis and Allies: Europe and :Pacific are standalone games that have separate maps and somewhat separate rules. I thoroughly enjoyed AAE back when I played it, but it’s pretty broken and kinda stale. To even the game out you have to get rid of the each-side-gets-12-ipcs-to-spend-anywhere rule and just give the Allies a bid of like 20+ I think. Still maybe worth checking out though.

    I’ve only played AAP a few times, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. It’s a much more naval game. All that island-hopping you get the urge to do in A&A and AAR but can rarely pull off well–you get to do that like crazy in AAP.

    I haven’t played the other ones like Battle of the Bulge or Guadalcanal. BoB seemed too much like Breakout: Normandy, and I don’t even know about Guadalcanal.

    I think AAR is such an improvement over original A&A and easily the best one Avalon Hill has put out, but AAE and AAP are also fun, probably even more so than A&A.

    If you’re looking for variants that mess with maps, territories, and rules, check out AAR Enhanced, AAR Historical, and Pact of Steel (which is AAR with some tweaks–and Italy!). And that’s just three variants–there are many more out there. I’ve heard Enhanced is very cool but haven’t gotten the chance to try it out yet.



  • @Krieghund:

    @Heckler409:

    I’m sorry, I need to add another question in here.  Can the aircraft carrier fire on it’s own or is it like the transport?

    Yes, a carrier can fire, but so can a transport if it’s defending.

    Just to clarify:
    when attacking, the Carrier attacks on a 1; the transport can be taken as a casualty, but does not fire
    when defending, the carrier defends on a 3, the transport defends on a 1

    furthermore with carriers  any figs (including ones from other powers) on the carrier are an additional part of the defense, rolling on 4s - i.e, a fully loaded carrier rolls 3 dice hitting on one 3 (carrier) and two 4’s(the 2 figs); when a carrier attacks, any figs from the attacking power may be added to the attack (or they can fly somewhere else).  However, if there are planes from an ally of the attacker on the attacking carrier, they are considered cargo.  This means they do not participate in battle and will go down as well if the ship carrying them sinks.  On both attack and defense, any land units on the transport are cargo and can not participate in the sea battle (and they go down if that transport sinks).



  • Yeah, I should have just looked at the attack/defend board, I think it would have cleared up a few things.

    I need some strategy suggestions here.  I’m the allies and my two buds took the Axis.  We stopped at the end of Turn 2, now beginning on Turn 3 tonight.

    I lost caucus and I’m considering pulling back Russia’s whole front line to Moscow just to defend it.

    Africa is wide open with only UK 1 soldier, 1 fighter no production doodad.  Lost India to Japan.

    I’m up and ready for an assault in the Atlantic with, US 4 transports, 2 battleships, 2 destroyers.  I’ve also got 1 bomber, 1 fighter in the UK.  Transports have 4 soldiers, 3 tanks, 1 artillery.

    Germany has a ton of tanks and soldiers on the Russian front line and in Caucus.  They have 1 fighter, 1 AA in "western Europe.  That’s where I’m attempting to land. They have 1 battleship and 1 transport near Caucus.

    Germany is sitting with 54 ICP’s so after Russia pulls back into Moscow, I really don’t know what he will buy.

    Should I go ahead and Launch an assault there[W Europe] or should I wait and build up a larger force?  Should I focus on getting the US into Africa Instead of Europe?



  • Well, my attempt at a US landing succeeded only to be lost to a simple counter attack.  A couple mis calculations had me in even a worse spot.

    Turns out, Russia[Moscow] held against 2 large German attacks and an attack from Japan right after the second German attack.  I really didn’t think they where worth much.  Looks like Russia is going to take Europe with some interference from the UK and US.  I never thought that would happen… cool game.



  • Just to be thorough and make the point:

    Fricking subs…


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