Welcome! If you're a returning member of the forums, please reset your password. If you don't receive an email within minutes, it means your account is listed under another, likely older, email address. Contact webmaster@axisandallies.org for help.

Best way to sneak up on UK



  • Im trying to pull Operation Sea Lion in a game Im playing, but Im trying to keep my plans kind of under the radar. 
    Britain is lightly defended, having only 2 destroyers together in seazone 6, 2 UK bombers and one US boomber, 2 tanks, and 2 fightersm while I have 2 destroyers in sea zone 3. Hes concentrating more on bombimg germanys economy down to nothing, and Im rolling badly on anti-aircraft.Â

    Im thinking of buying a transport, 1 infantry, 1 artillery every turn and alternating between placement in the med and baltic.  My first turn I do this im going to build a destroyer in the baltic. Ill move my land unit buys to transport things around into western europe, algeria, and Gibraltar, so theres not any one massive buildup, and all touch the same sea zone. Then, the turn before, Ill throw all of my air force into western europe. To defend against Russia, Im going to use the remaining IPC’s after transport buys for infantry as fodder.

    How would you guys go about this?  Even if you normally wouldnt, how would you if you were going to?


  • 2007 AAR League

    Well as UK he should notice that Germany is building Trn and he will probably build Inf and or more land units to defend against it but if you want to sneak up I would say using Sz 13 acting like you are reinforcing Algeria may work. You can reach UK and it looks like you are trying to just reinforce against USA or something like that. But otherwise sneaking up on him will depend on the player IMO.



  • The BEST way to do Sea Lion is the “overload” approach…

    Massed German fleet in the Med, with lots of TRNs.
    Move the fleet to SZ12 (assuming that the Allies cannot kill it immediately) and secure Africa.
    From there, you directly threaten London, Montreal, Washington, Rio, Havana and Panama City.  That is a hell of a lot of terrain for the Allies to defend.  You take the best one that they fail to defend…  Sometimes that will be London.  Sometimes that will be Washington (when the US player fails to notice the threat), sometimes it will be Canadian Shield, sometimes it will be central or south America.

    Either way, you make a nice economic advance, and scare the crap out of the Allies 🙂



  • Yeah, thats what I was planning if he noticed (attack into brazil and west africa, and if I have units in ukraine I could try and take Caucasus) except my attack was from seazone 13, but I kind of like your idea better. A lot more territory is threatened, and I know he wont be t hiking about panama and such being threatened.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    In my utterly most humble and respectful opinion - because I’ve never done it - I think it would be best to just not spend the money, stacking it up in your bank until you can buy all the transports you need to do Op Sea Lion and then buy them and place them.  You wouldn’t need to buy the infantry/armor because you should keep them in W. Europe, E. Europe, Germany, Norway or Karelia anyway in this case.

    Just an idea.  But if you build the transports, England’s going to know what’s up.  If you wait and then buy more transports then he can possibly handle on defense because he left himself too light, you have a much stronger chance.

    Again, just the utterly most humble opinion of a girl who just started playing AAR in July.



  • I’d say F**K sea lion.

    TANK DASH TO MOSCOW!

    1.  Bombers suck for defense.

    2.  If he’s building bombers, that’s less transports and infantry he’s building.  If he isn’t building infantry that can be transported to your shores, your territories are not going to be seriously challenged for a bit.  SO, you lose a few IPCs to bomber.  Or even a lot.  Fact is, you have more territory, so you can lose territory.

    If you MUST do Sea Lion (because let’s face it, bold and reckless moves are what impresses the ladies), then either try Mediterranean threat like ncsswitch mentioned, or do fighters / 1 or 2 Baltic transports.

    Med threat can be countered immediately after the build by mass Allied navy.  Germany builds transports at S. Europe.  UK builds navy, US builds navy.  Now if you move west of Algeria, UK can strafe, and US can kill.  Big expensive Med fleet is very risky against a good Allied player.  But if you MUST go Sea Lion . . .

    Don’t save.  If you do not place units on the board, Russia will DEFINITELY press on you.  Unless, for god’s sake, Russia is building bombers too, in which case you should REALLY tank dash to Moscow.

    Also, don’t just build one transport at a time.  If you build lightly defended transports, you’re taking a big chance that the Allied air won’t just smash your navy.

    If you save, then MAYBE a massive Baltic build will work.  But then again, maybe UK will just pop eight infantry out there, and then what will you do?  You can bet that if the Allies see a London invasion coming (and they can’t miss it with a massive Baltic build, unless your opponent is REALLY bad), there’s gonna be fighters and infantry on London, not easy to get around.  Personally, I never save IPCs if I can help it.  Oh, I might leave off IPCs, like for Japan’s first turn, I just go for transports and tanks, and any extra IPCs are saved for spending after I see the US build - but I only save 1 IPC or 2 IPCs at most.

    My advice is to buy your opponent free drinks.  Get 'em good and drunk.  Actually, that is generally sound advice for dealing with people.



  • You know, you got me, Im just in it for the ladies.

    I would normally do a tank dash to Moscow, but this was just too tempting and Japan was inching towards Moscow anyways.

    Because of his bad buys and lack of any UK ariforce except what he already had, he was almost forced to start buying land units, so UK was out of the question.  I used my Med fleet to take out all of the tiny british fleet, invade Brazil, E. Canada, and retake Norway.  With Japan at the gates of Moscow, the USA surrounding Japan, a massive German IPC income for the next few turns, and 5 days of play under our belts, we called a draw.

    I never save IPC’s either, I dont like having more than 2 left over.  And it seems like the UK would realize youve been saving IPC’s (probably for an oh-so-pricy naval build), and all of the allies would get defensive for at least one turn.

    I really like this strategy though, with building a Med fleet and taking over a lot of empty allied territory as germany as once.  I tried it in another game as the axis, and the synchronized axis invasion of both Canadian territories led to the US building all land units to defend their homes, and eventually to Japan taking over all of Russia.  Its the winter of 44 and the axis just need to take Leningrad to win the game. It shouldnt be hard either, since the Luftwaffe will blow away all of britains frail navy next turn.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    You know, the allies realizing you are saving and massing troops at home also plays into your hands.  Now you have BOTH the IPCs for land units or navy instead of being locked into one or the other AND neutrallized allies.



  • I don’t think any build up in the Mediteranean is a good idea, while yes, you can theoretically strike any target, you’ll be putting your ships directly in the path of the US fleet, and that’s a quick way to lose a fleet. 90% of the time the US fleet goes for the Med, so I’d consider staging out of the Baltic fleet instead. With your already established subs and destroyer, you can just build a carrier or two and land fighters on it/them for a great defense, and the fighters can be used for your attack. Then in the next turn, build a ton of transports, it’ll be too late for a UK counter attack, odds are everything but US planes will be out of range, and the UK will only have one shot of outproducing your ground forces, and if you devote all of your airforce, I doubt he can hold on.


  • Official Answers 2007 AAR League

    @newpaintbrush:

    My advice is to buy your opponent free drinks.  Get 'em good and drunk.  Actually, that is generally sound advice for dealing with people.

    “The trouble with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind.”-Bogart in Sabrina I think.

    Never tried Sea Lion myself but salting away some IPCs here and there for a sudden big 'ol navy purchase doesn’t sound like a bad idea.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I wouldn’t say more then like 5 a round though. (5 rounds = 3 transports +1)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Trying to take UK before Russia falls will cost you the game.  Germany can’t spend all that money on transports without allowing Russia to become a threat, and the US/UK will see the German naval build up and easily counter it.



  • But it doesnt HAVE to go to the UK, we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.



  • @Cobert:

    But it doesnt HAVE to go to the UK, we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.

    Like where?

    What territories are going to justify a weak early start against Russia and the need to keep sinking IPCs into a German navy?

    And I never said you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories, or that Sea Lion in the scenario you describe is a good idea.  I believe my exact words were:

    F**K sea lion

    I also described Sea Lion in that scenario as reckless.

    If you MUST do Sea Lion (because let’s face it, bold and reckless moves are what impresses the ladies

    If you’re going to say things like “we all said that you could rob IPCs from numerous other territories.” indicating that you are trying to take a REASONED approach to Sea Lion, I must dispute that.  Sea Lion is some wild and reckless stuff.  It is not something that you do because your command staff agrees with you.  It is what you do when your six-year old kid wanders into your war room, and rewrites all your battle plans.  (Assume the six-year-old in question has just had a lot of sugared cereal and is watching athletic shoe commercials and Hollywood movies).

    Now, if someone wants to make the point that often in war, the reckless and daring succeed, I will not debate that; the pre-emptive strike is often a good move.  But Sea Lion is REALLY audacious stuff.



  • Im not doubting its reckless, I was just trying to figure out a way to make the least reckless possible.  In the game I tried in in that mightve been an allied win, the mediterranean distraction helped Japan get to Moscow. Still, it seems very situational, not something you try every game.  I needed something new to change the bland ‘try for africa / attack russia’ approach.


  • Official Answers 2007 AAR League

    Well you can always try an experimental strat as long as you are aware that it is experimental. Playing games is supposed to be fun, it is of course more fun to win but sometimes playing just to play is fun too.



  • @Cobert:

    Im not doubting its reckless, I was just trying to figure out a way to make the least reckless possible.  In the game I tried in in that mightve been an allied win, the mediterranean distraction helped Japan get to Moscow. Still, it seems very situational, not something you try every game.  I needed something new to change the bland ‘try for africa / attack russia’ approach.

    The viability of different lines of play depend on what ruleset you play.

    Since I play OOB/FAQ, I sometimes run

    1)  Rockets

    1. Long Range Aircraft Sea Lion variation

    I usaully try to take Russia and Africa anyways with those lines of play, but those lines of play really mess with the game.

    If you join the Caspian Sub Yahoo group, you can read the paper on building 2-3 Baltic transports on G1.  I use that as 3), sometimes.

    Join Caspian Sub.  It’s a good gig.



  • Ehh, we dont play with Tech rolls, those are out.

    I get that its just for fun, but I was wondering If I could make it an effective strategy.



  • @Cobert:

    Ehh, we dont play with Tech rolls, those are out.

    I get that its just for fun, but I was wondering If I could make it an effective strategy.

    Next time, post the constraints that you are operating under.

    I don’t like to waste time.

    Trying to take London without tech is not an effective strategy unless you have a transport bid in the Baltic, or unless your opponent does not respond properly to your G1 move.  There are lines of play that use Baltic transports to maintain a threat on London while accomplishing other objectives, but those are not strictly Sea Lion plays.



  • Hey Cobert.

    Couple thoughts for you:

    1. The sneaky way to hit London is the Land Bridge.  It’s part of what newpaintbrush mentioned on the Caspian Sub website.  Here’s the quick version of the move:

    R1: Buy 2tra in the Baltic (3tra depending on some factors).  This is stronger than it looks - it shouldn’t be attacked.  Also invade Gibraltar.  Now you are set for a united fleet in S07 on R2.
    R2: If the UK goes KJF or otherwise leaves itself exposed, now buy 5tra.  That gives you a minimum of 8tra and a max of 10tra.

    It’s a great sucker punch.

    If the cirucmstances are wrong for buying the 5tra on R2, you still have a great suicide fleet.

    That’s the short version.  The long version is in the Baltic papers on Caspian Sub.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/

    One more thought: I have seen MANY games where folks were fighting over India and WEU/UK were relatively empty (KJF).  In a lot of those instances, the Germans could have dropped 5tra in the Baltic and overwhelmed London immediately.  It’s a sucker punch people just don’t look for much.

    Peace


  • 2007 AAR League

    I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.



  • @newpaintbrush:

    Next time, post the constraints that you are operating under.

    I don’t like to waste time.

    Trying to take London without tech is not an effective strategy unless you have a transport bid in the Baltic, or unless your opponent does not respond properly to your G1 move.  There are lines of play that use Baltic transports to maintain a threat on London while accomplishing other objectives, but those are not strictly Sea Lion plays.

    Well sorry about that then.

    Just got into caspian sub.



  • @jsp4563:

    I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.

    OK, I build a German carrier and land one fighter and the bomber at Libya, one fighter at Germany to go on the Baltic carrier, and rest at W. Europe.  I sent the Med fleet west and united with the German sub from the Atlantic at Gibraltar, taking no casaulties (reasonably likely with fighters attacking as well).  Also, I have Anglo-Egypt because of a German opening bid.

    Counter that easily.



  • @jsp4563:

    I don’t think any decent allied player would allow germany to unite their fleet in sz7.  It’s easy to spot, and easily countered.

    Show me how it’s done.  Start with the simple example I gave.  Germans build 3tra in the Baltic, send 1sub 1tra 1btl 2ftr to Gibraltar.  Germans land 4ftr in WEU, 1ftr 1bmr in LIB.

    What is your easy counter to that move to prevent the fleets from uniting?

    Thanks in advance.



  • Well sorry about that then.

    it’s coo.  (abbrev. “cool”)

    What is your easy counter to that move to prevent the fleets from uniting?

    Me (points):  OMG, HEATHER LOCKLEAR!

    (CrazyStraw spins around “where?!”)

    (sudden crashing noise)

    Me:  OOPS, my cat knocked over the board!  OH WELLZ, I guess your German fleets can’t unite, WHAT A SHAME

    CrazyStraw:  You don’t have a cat.

    The closest thing to an “easy” counter that I can think of is US and UK consolidate fleet off UK, and UK builds 3 fighters, followed by US flies its W US and Hawaii fighters to E. Canada and its fighter and bomber to London, while also moving its E. US forces of 2 inf 1 art 1 tank to London.

    London has defender 1 AA gun 2 bomber 4 inf 2 art 3 tank 6 fighter.  The Russian sub that joined the UK battleship and transport on Russia 1 moves west of Algeria to block the German Mediterranean fleet on Russia2.  (The Caspian Sub paper does mention that if Russian fighters are in range of London, that possibly 3 transports should not be built.  So I assume that Russia has played a Russian-fighters-at-Caucasus variation.)

    The Russian sub does NOT prevent German fleet unification.  What it does is 1) prevent the German Med transport from being used in a G2 attack on London (although the Germans CAN reinforce London if it was taken), and 2) force the Germans to EITHER use a fighter to take out the sub or force submerge, OR forces the Germans to use navy to attack the Russian sub (bad idea, German naval units used to attack will be stranded west of Algeria), OR forces the Germans NOT to unite the fleet.  In the last case, the Germans have attacking force 4 inf 4 tank 6 fighters 1 bomber, which I think is pretty risky for the Germans, although I haven’t actually cracked the numbers recently.

    Now, if Germany DOES decide to take one of the options that results in fleet unification, that PROBABLY means that London was not invaded.  There are a few permutations, but the fact is that the Russian sub must be blown up by German navy (preventing a deal of unification), or that the Russian sub must be blown up or forced to submerge by German air (which weakens any German attack on London to the point that it is very risky).

    So the German fleet of 5 trns 3 sub 1 destroyer 1 battleship unites off France, with dhit 18 count 11, while the UK has 1 battleship, 2 transports, 5 fighters, and 1 bomber for ohit 23 count 10.  Which is not bad for the Germans, but the US can follow with 2 trns 1 destroyer 3 fighter 1 bomber, which will wipe out the remnants of the German fleet.

    The UK/US counters are entirely dependent on the UK and US first turn builds, and first and second turn moves.  UK and US still have the option of using their second turn builds to respond to the German second turn build.

    But even if that DOES prevent German fleet unification, it forces the Allies into a KGF, and it does NOT kill the Baltic fleet, which means that the later Allied turns are going to have to deal with that considerably sized Baltic fleet, which is by no means simple.

    That is - there is a counter to the stop the German fleets from uniting, but I do not believe it is a SIMPLE counter, because the Germans have a lot of counterplay possibilities.


Log in to reply
 

Welcome to the new forums! For security and technical reasons, we did not migrate your password. Therefore to get started, please reset your password. You may use your email address or username. Please note that your username is not your display name.

If you're having problems, please send an email to webmaster@axisandallies.org

T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 7
  • 15
  • 12
  • 6
  • 60
  • 21
  • 6
  • 27
I Will Never Grow Up Games

49
Online

13.3k
Users

33.6k
Topics

1.3m
Posts