How to counter the G1 Carrier (w/UK)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Assumption:

    • Bid game, w/a winning bid of 1 inf UKR
    • Winning game
    • Russia takes BEL/WRU on turn 1 (UKR bolstered by bid)

    So - what to do with the UK?

    The UK may build navy (like AC, dst) and place it in NOR: Then it will probably be sunk, at the cost of the GER fleet.
    An alternative may be to build navy, but place it out of reach of G. Then you risk the combining of the G fleets. That is NOT good news for the Allies…(as I have painfully discovered a few times…).

    So - how do you counter the G1 carrier folks?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Russia should have taken Ukraine anyway.  1 infantry doesn’t skew the results more then a counter attack by Germany would result in anyway.

    England, assuming no SBR by Germany, should build 3 fighters.

    England 2:

    5 Fighters, 1 Bomber vs 2 SS, 1 TRN, 1 DD, 1 CV, 2 FIG results in England with 1 bomber, maybe a bomber and a fighter and Germany reduced to submarines only, if they didn’t try to use them in fodder.



  • A move I have often seen done…
    UK existing fleet to SSZ12 in UK1, and build additional fleet (AC and TRN) in SZ2.  Link them in SZ6 or 7 on UK2, followed by the US ships from SZ10 that also went to SZ12 in US 1 also moving to SZ6-7 in US2 (and of course the USSR Sub follows along, first in SZ2 reinforcing the initial fleet before it moves, then the build fleet, and finally joining the Allied fleet in the North Sea.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    That works as well, with the added benefit of landing troops in Africa to start reclaiming.

    Though, with the 3 fighter purchase you can still do that.

    Armor from E. Canada, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery from England + Battleship to Algeria/SZ 12

    America follows up with 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 armor, 2 transports, 1 destroyer, a fighter and a bomber on USA 1 to Algeria/SZ 12.

    Problem is, you better make sure you build some land forces to make sure England doesn’t fall to Op Sea Lion on Germany 2.  Because I can guarentee anyone who’s putting a Carrier in SZ 5 on G1 is setting his or her fighters up in W. Europe in case it seems possible that Sea Lion will work.



  • Why exactly do you want to build a carrier on G1?

    I play the game regularly, but when I come on here the 2 things I hear and ive never understood was bidding and building a carrier on G1.


  • 2007 AAR League

    If you don’t build the carrier on G1 Britain can use it’s 2 FIGs and Bomber to wipe out the fleet in the Baltic on UK1 and then Germany has to keep units in Germany and Eastern Europe to defend



  • I see I see, thank you.



  • Also, the reinforced Baltic Fleet combined with the Luftwafe presents a significant fleet risk to the UK (and to a lesser extent the US) forcing them to build capital ships, build out of range in “safe” SZ’s like SZ2 initially, etc.  In shot, it slows the Allies down quite a bit.

    Excellent ROI for 16 IPC.



  • @Perry:

    Assumption:

    • Bid game, w/a winning bid of 1 inf UKR
    • Winning game
    • Russia takes BEL/WRU on turn 1 (UKR bolstered by bid)

    So - what to do with the UK?

    The UK may build navy (like AC, dst) and place it in NOR: Then it will probably be sunk, at the cost of the GER fleet.
    An alternative may be to build navy, but place it out of reach of G. Then you risk the combining of the G fleets. That is NOT good news for the Allies…(as I have painfully discovered a few times…).

    So - how do you counter the G1 carrier folks?

    What UK does is dependent on what Germany did.  There are not nearly enough details in that post to guess what the proper response is.

    If the German Med fleet moved west, then UK should probably build transports and consolidate with US fleet southwest of London for threatened attack on Norway or Algeria UK2 followed by US fleet reinforcement if to Algeria.

    If the German Med fleet moved east, and left some air out of range of the sea zone west of Algeria, consolidation off Algeria.

    If the German Med fleet moved east, but left air in range . . . etc. etc. etc.

    MORE DETAILS must be had if a good response is to be made!

    Anyways, dealing with a German combined fleet is not too tricky.  You are delayed, but you keep the fleet out of range of the German air but in range of the German navy, and bulk up air at London.  If the German navy pursues the Allied navy, they may win, but the Allied air will finish the German fleet.  if the German navy retreats, they either retreat to the Med, in which case UK can transport units to Norway/Archangel/Karelia/Eastern Europe, or they retreat to the Baltic, in which case the Allies march through Africa and threaten Southern Europe.  Of course, if the Axis just stay where they are, they can’t reinforce their fleet because any new navy built in the Baltic dies to massive Allied air, any new navy built at Southern Europe takes a while to get off W. Eur, and there is no IC at Western Europe (although Germany could build one on G1).  So if the Germans just stay off Western Europe, the Allies kill them pretty quickly.

    What of a German IC at Western Europe?  I am personally undecided, although the fact that I don’t currently use a German Western Europe IC as one of my “opening book” moves, and my conservative streak, means that I am somewhat against it.  Germany can stall a long time with a fleet and IC at Western Europe; well enough to leave only a few infantry and fighters in Western Europe (the fighters are there to support the German navy, and the infantry there to stop enemy air from harassing the German fighters).  I hesitate to endorse a Western Europe IC because it must be built on G1 to support a German navy off Western Europe on G2, and early investment of 31 IPC (German carrier in Baltic and IC in W. Eur) means a strong Russia with no German units to press the attack.  In theory, additional units could be freed up from defense of Western Europe, and Germany could control Africa with the W. Eur bolster, but requirement for constant fleet buildup could offset those gains.  That in turn could be offset by continual invasion of London threat . . . but this post is long enough as it is.


  • 2007 AAR League

    hey switch, jenn is correct uk cannot buy a navy unless u.s.a reinforces uk. or the brits buy land units.  we both got smacked by the operation sea lion in back to back games.



  • It depends on Germany’s AF movements in G1 whether it is a risk or not.  If they put massive force forward (in range of UK), then yes, you reduce the size of the UK naval build to JUST the AC, and do that out of range in SZ2.  Then you use the remaining 14 IPC for land units.

    But if several FIGs are out of range, with an AC/TRN/2 INF build on UK1, you SHOULD be safe from Sea Lion…
    Germany has 4 FIGs max in range (1 dead in Ukraine R1, 1 sitting in Libya after G1 that can;t reach UK).
    Germany has 1 TRN, so 1 INF/1 ARM is the most that can land in UK

    With FOUR FIGs in range, you probably want to skip the TRN and go land units, then build your TRNs the following turn.

    UK will land 4 units in Algeria, 1 of those from ECan, so 1 land unit left in UK, plus the 2 INF from the build.  The remaining unit would be an ARM for me, sending 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM to Algeria
    US sends a FIG and BOM to UK
    And with the UK1 build being in SZ2, no need to transfer the RAF FIGs to the AC yet.

    So UK has:
    2 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 2 BOM, 1 AA

    So if only 3 Germany FIGs are in range…

    The Battle:
    1 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 1 BOM vs. 2 INF, 1 ARM, 3 FIG, 2 BOM, AA

    Less than 10% Axis win.

    The other option of course is for the UK to STACK their fleet in SZ6 on UK1, and invite the Germans to hit it… 😄

    The point is, there are several ways to “deal with” the AC build.  But if you DON’T build the AC as Germany, you lose the Baltic Fleet on UK1, period.



  • Depending the bid the axis can actualy move the med transport off the coast of gibraltar and it could reach the UK and land an additional 1 inf/arm(art) there.

    Landing your forces in algeria basicaly kills all your fleet in 1 go. 1 BB 2 trans ( maby US forces 2 trans 1 dd ) Vs 1 sub 1 tran 1 BB 4-5 figs 1 bomb.



  • The moving west of the Med Fleet does not assist in a G2 strike on UK under the above scenario…

    The Med Fleet can;t get passed the BB, DST, 3 TRN, 1 SUB that will be in SZ12 to make the landing during combat movement on G2.


  • 2007 AAR League

    i agree i will either buy 1 ac+ 1 dd and put fleet in sz 6. or just buy land units and move  all allies to algeria, sz 12.  never never let the german fleet to link up. we should be on each others list for a game switch, but your like me 1 game at a time with the actual board. the only way to play it.



  • You wre not yet on my list, but you are now 😄


  • 2007 AAR League

    If you are building your UK AC out of range of GER air, why not build UK trns instead, and save your AC build for round 2 when you can plop it down wherever you want to consolidate your allied fleet?



  • Because SZ2 is not 100% safe.  It can still be hit by 2 FIG, 1 BOM (with the AC sailing to SZ3 for FIG recovery)


  • 2007 AAR League

    That doesn’t seem like a serious threat to me…

    UK consolidates their 2 trn and 1 BB in SZ 2.  Add 1 Russian sub and 2 more UK trn built in round 1.  If I can get GER to attack my combined 1BB 4trn 1sub with 1bmb 2fig I will probably hold with BB and 2 trn.  Now if this suicide attacke also forces GER to move at least their AC if not their entire Baltic fleet to sz3 (and thus avoid a fleet consolidation G2 in sz7), then I would gladly make that trade I think and pick off their weaker fleets at my leisure (remember they are now down 3 air).  Plus now I am seriously threatening his holdings in NOR and WEU with 4 trn for a turn 2 landing…

    If he doesn’t attack sz2 and still consolidates in sz7 turn 2, I can either further build up my consolidated fleet, moving it to sz8 and dropping an AC there turn 2 (no further behind), or if I want to attack his consolidated fleet, I’d still rather have 2 trn on attack than 1 AC.

    Of course, this comes from a pure classic player (haven’t yet played revised).  What have I missed?



  • I was assuming a UK landing in Algeria.  If their fleet is still in SZ2, then there is NO Sea Lion risk due to the number of units in UK


  • 2007 AAR League

    NCSCSwitch,

    I now see where you are going with this for the algeria landing UK2.  Are you suggesting though that you could both land in algeria in UK2 and still protect against sea lion G3?

    @newpaintbrush:

    If the German Med fleet moved west, then UK should probably build transports and consolidate with US fleet southwest of London for threatened attack on Norway or Algeria UK2 followed by US fleet reinforcement if to Algeria.

    @ncscswitch:

    If they put massive force forward (in range of UK), then yes, you reduce the size of the UK naval build to JUST the AC, and do that out of range in SZ2.

    @ncscswitch:

    And with the UK1 build being in SZ2, no need to transfer the RAF FIGs to the AC yet.

    However, since we are agreed we don’t have to land fighters on the AC until round 2, I still think a superior build would be UK1 = 2trn plus ground, and USA1 = AC (plus whatever else).  Then round 2 you can either go to algeria (with USA AC support) or consolidate in SZ 6/7 (again with USA AC support).  This way you avoid purchasing capital ships with the cash strapped UK and put that money into ground troops instead…

    Thoughts?



  • It is a UK1 landing in Algeria with 1 ARM, 2 INF, 1 ART, the ARM from ECan.

    US follows up with the same forces from Eastern landing there in US1.

    That leaves a fleet of 3 TRN, 1 DST, 1 BB in SZ12, perhaps the Russian SUB moves there in R2 as well, depending on German AF positions.

    Germany has to go Sea Lion on G2 if they are going to attempt it, because the next thing is a UK Fleet Link in SZ6 in UK2, and the fall of Norway.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Nah, move the SZ 2 fleet to SZ 1, move an infantry from W. Can to E. Can, buy 3 fighters.

    Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2
    Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

    As I said, the odds you find a german player who doesn’t stack W. Europe with fighters is extremely small.  So you’re going to have to worry about at least 1 transport, 1 infantry, 1 armor, 4 fighters and a bomber on average.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @ncscswitch:

    It is a UK1 landing in Algeria with 1 ARM, 2 INF, 1 ART, the ARM from ECan.

    Ahhh, UK1 landing…

    So still not sure why you want to build that AC turn one with UK?  If you are planning on consolidating in SZ6 on turn 2, why not just build the AC turn 2 placing it directly in sz6?  I’d rather have 2 trn on turn one than 1 ac, and I haven’t heard a good argument yet for building the trns over the AC (in fact, I’ve already argued in earlier posts this thread that the trns are better for a number of reasons).

    Rob



  • Personal Preference… the AC allows more flexibility to me 🙂


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Jennifer:

    Sink German Navy along with German planes on UK 2.  Invade Norway with 2 Inf, 2 Arm (Buying 2 Inf, 1 Arm to replace losses + whatever.)

    Jennifer,

    How are you going to a) sink the consolidated sz7 GER navy and b) invade Norway, in round 2?  The sz7 battle is a close one as is, and without those transports as fodder, I think you are risking leaving the GER with a navy yet…

    In two rounds of combat, UK will probably score 7 hits without transports as fodder (maybe 8), GER will score 8 hits / borderline 9 hits.  UK will be left with maybe one unit (BB or BMB), GER will be left with 4 units (BB, loaded AC), or maybe only 3.

    Now the UK has wasted their entire starting navy (except 2 trns - guaranteed dead come G2) and their entire first round buy, and GER still has boats in the water and basically the entire AF still intact.

    Rob


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