• 😮
    OK, it sounds radical, but here is my theroy:
    With an IC in W.E., Germany can launch ships and quickly build defensive forces on its’ western front.
    My main goal is to be able to put subs in the english channel and the western Med to prevent allied transports from picking up units from England in the channel and north Africa from the western Med. I’ve play tested this on line, and though a bit costly, it seems to confound the allies very well. They are forced to build expensive capital ships, and planes to deal with it, all more costly than my subs.
    The downside is, Germany is slow to put the pressure on Russia, not a good thing, but Japan seems to get less pressure, due to more effort requied in the European theatre, so they advance with little resistance.
    I only ask that you try this out before commenting, because there is nothing like experience to back up a theory.

    A very Merry Christmas All  🙂

  • I threw this hairbrained idea out on the boards nearly 2 years ago… but have never had the balls to try it…  😄

  • :roll:

    Well…… give it a try and then let us know what you think. 😉
    I have good ideas all the time, but usually can’t afford to impliment them. 😞

  • I’ve seen (and possibly had) this idea before, but here’s a problem that just occurred to me: Can’t the Allies just sidestep? If the US is in the western Mediterranean, can’t it just go one west to sz12, and then return to land in WEu? A sub in both sea zones would do the trick, but not just one.

    And the same would go for the UK, if it even lands in WEu–I like to keep the UK fleet up north and out of range of some Luftwaffe, especially while it is just building up. The UK fleet could just go to the other UK sz, pick up troops, come back, kill the sub, and land.

    A WEu IC would also mean you couldn’t just picket WEu. You’d have to leave a serious amount of troops there. Generally this is a good idea, but an IC would commit you to holding it.

  • 😉
    Actually, it protects Germany. I didn’t have to have any troops in there at all. Just W.E. and a little in S.E. Now I can keep all of europe with the sacrifice of a sub or two/turn. Until the allied player has so much invested in carriers and capital ships that he must take W.E and its’ IC out of commission. Turn 5 or 6 perhaps. That means germany has gained 30 to 35 IPC from W.E alone without the losses from trading it back and forth. Instead of the retake, just keep it for as long as possible, then retreat to Germany when it looks like it can’t hold. Downside is, now the allies have a free IC on your front door. Sure wish there was a scorched earth option in this game. 😛

  • I am waiting for the game where I can really put a Western IC to the test…  a game where the bid and R1 show heavy KJF…  😄

  • Western Europe IC is not a good idea for Germany. You want troops? Deploy them at Germany/South Europa and send them the next turn. Want ships? The same. It’s 15 ipcs less for no purpose, and if you continue building ships, the USSR could reach Eastern Europe by alone. Allies must buy only a couple of AC and then play as usual. And if Germany continues buying ships… well, It’s a new red world.

    It’s even worst than the Ukranian IC my pal likes play at face to face  😛 At least, if USSR captures the Ukranian IC and hold, It’s not a huge advantage, but if USA takes and hold the France IC, It’s game over.

  • I don’t know how the W. Europe IC would play out, but I imagine it would end up in a similar situation such as mass navy like the game I played against Jen.

  • I agree this does not sound optimal.  Between Germany ans Southern Europe you can deploy all the troops you should need.  It does give you the tactical possibility to deploy a ship directly into the Atlantic, but that does not convince me.  Id rather have 5 infantry or 3 artillery and 1 infantry or something else than the IC.  Also, with some rules, you open Germany up to even more economic losses because rockets can only be launched at IC territories.  I understand the proposals for US/UK and Japanese ICs here or there because of transport logistics, but it doesn’t work for me with Germany or Russia.  -  Merry Christmas!

  • I think round one is too early. To have a navy to add ships to will require an aircraft carrier for the Baltic fleet, which is not a bad move by itself. However; this only leaves 9 IPCs, most likely three infantry. This is starting to really thin down Germany’s land units for round two. Also by placing it round one this telegraphs Germany’s intentions. Now the US and UK have their round one to gear up for a naval battle in the Atlantic. I am not sure exactly how Beans Naval battle with Jen went early but since I knew she was going for an alleged link up in SZ7 I was able to disrupt her plans. As an allied player seeing this (the IC) I would dedicate England to fleet destruction, send the US completely after Japan (minus eastern starting units) and the Soviets directly after Germany by land. That is 24 IPCs and growing the Germans have to contend with on land and a dwindling 30 IPCs by sea. That math doesn’t look so hot for Germany to me.

    If I were to pursue such I would wait until I had grabbed some money out of Africa and allowed the Allies to reveal where they are focusing their efforts. I also think SZ7 has too much focus put on it as it is the magical link up spot for the two German fleets. I further think Germany is better served if pursuing a Naval strategy by developing two separate Navies. That I do have first hand experience in.

    I do want to give a thumbs up to Ivan for play testing this. I play F-T-F nightly with the same opponent and  we try all sorts of things like this to reduce the sameness and try new and wild ideas. I don’t understand why more of this isn’t done here. I mean I can understand not wanting to go out on a limb in Tournament; but if its just a game, its just a game.

  • 2007 AAR League

    it´s viable as long as your objective is to hold with germany and come to the rescue with Japan.

  • I remember I built a factory in France around Turn 12 when the situation obviously demanded it: Germany had conquered all Russia and Africa and US besieging Japan to the home island and one Asian coast area, with naval guerilla against all the (nominally German) coast.

    France would be a good place from where Germany could start to add pressure to  UK/US fast enough…

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator


    I am waiting for the game where I can really put a Western IC to the test…  a game where the bid and R1 show heavy KJF…  😄

    Honestly, I tried it out a few times.  I didn’t really know how to use the German navy effectively.  But I did learn that it ties down the Germany navy protecting W. Europe instead of chasing the Americans around.

  • 🙂
    Much thanks to all who replied to this thread. I am trying to find new topics to discuss for our mutual edjucation and entertainment.
    IMHO, Nix has come closest to the understanding of just what this strategy is trying to accomplish. Germay often has to turtle up and wait for the pressure to build with a growing Japan. As I see it, the ICs’ purpose is two fold.
      First; in the early game, to quickly build W.E. defensive forces, ie: Infantry, planes, and ships, (preferibly subs). 
      Secondly; after Russia falls, it is a naval base from which to more quickly threaten UK and USA fleets and shore lines.

    I again request for some play testing help on your parts, and let’s see just how it really works.  😉

    Happy Holidays to All. 😄

  • First; in the early game, to quickly build W.E. defensive forces, ie: Infantry, planes, and ships, (preferibly subs).
      Secondly; after Russia falls, it is a naval base from which to more quickly threaten UK and USA fleets and shore lines.

    I’m just saying, to argue the first case, you can already build forces quickly, just move them from Germany. If you build a complex, you’re missing 5 inf to defend W. Europe already, that makes no sense.

    To argue the second case, if the Allies can’t control W. Europe before Moscow falls, they are probably doing something wrong, OR Germany is spending so much effort there that everything besides the capital is missing pretty quickly. Once they grab your complex, you are in bad shape.

    I agree that Germany has to turtle up. I don’t see how a complex helps that. I also don’t see how big naval purchases truly help in the long run. Jen spent 80 IPCs on navy and got decimated. Every naval dollar allows Russia to push in faster, but also if you don’t spend on navy then the other Allies shuck faster. There is no answer that anyone can come to me and say clearly that Germany has to buy this or that; there is always an Allied counter. Either Russia is owning up land, or UK/US is owning up land.

    What does work about it however I do have to admit is surprise factor. If you haven’t seen something before and you react even just slightly off, it might work against you.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    If anything, the IC in W. Europe is a great way to flesh out your navy in SZ 7/13/6 so you don’t have to limp back to SZ 14 or SZ 5 every time you want to put a new transport or submarine in the water.

  • 2007 AAR League

    In regards to the WEU IC, I think it is an inefficient way to maintain the German navy, when all you need to do is keep it nice and safe tucked away in the Baltic, and then slowly build it up just enough to make it very inefficient for the allies to kill it.

    The advantage of this is allowing Germany to keep exchanging Nor and only have to protect WEU.
    My usual strat is
    Turn 1: TRN to baltic
    (why? because it makes the UK attack of the baltic fleet very risky, that 8 Dollars gives you a very good chance of killing those 2 FTR and bomber, and even after a strafe, you can still take back NOR with the surviving 1-2 TRN. If UK decides not to attack, they have to deal with a nice little Operation Sealion possibility
    If UK builds lots of Fighters or a fleet within range that can attack the Baltic fleet, I will

    Turn 2: 1 AC and maybe a fighter to Baltic.
    Odds are, this AC (for 16) plus 2 fighter landing on it, will make any UK attack costly or suicidal. The AC also gives Germany a LOT of flexibility threatening the Allies fleets, exchanging Norway, and using the fighters on the Eastern front.
    All remaining fleet builds will be just enough to prevent a profitable UK or US attack… whether its a SS, another AC, or even a Battleship, if I have the inclination and extra cash from a successful Africa trip. The US and UK combined might have a pretty nice sized fleet, but they only get to attack separately, against a very strong defensive Baltic fleet.

    The advantage of this play is that it really eases up Germany’s need for a strong defense, basically just sending 1-2 INF a turn to WEU, with fighters landing there. It keeps the allies from getting a foothold in Norway, and if they decided to take out the Baltic fleet, odds are they are leaving Africa along. It also speeds up the INF train from GER to LEN to ARC… if you so desire.
    Ild rather have UK building SS, DD, AC and BB than INF that are going right to NOR, LEN or Algeria. And once they decide to take the fleet out, they get to absorb hits from 2-4 fighters on the Acs, 2 SS DD 2 TRN and whatever else might be there, costing lots of TRN and Fighters.

    Its a little costly, but with the protected NOR income, the easier defense of Germany and Eastern Europe, the excess UK and US naval and airforce expenses, and the flexibilty of an airforce based in the baltic, I think spending an average of 8-10 IPC a turn is worth it, and if things go badly after turn one, just stop with the turn 1 TRN build and dont bother with the AC etc…
    Nothing is funnier than watching 2 UK Fighter and BOM attack the deceptively strong baltic fleet turn 1 of 2 TRN 2 SS DD and getting toasted in exchange for a sub or 2 that dont have a purpose otherwise. OR seeing a German Baltic fleet with 2 AC and 1-2 BB by turn 8-10, with the UK income dwindling to 20ish, and no hope of ever clearing the fleet.

    This strategy is helped if the UKR fighter survives (it usually does because I bid 1 INF to there most games) and if Africa goes well (which is also usually the case because UK and US are having to spend so much keeping the allied fleets safe from the German navy and airforce, and JApan is dropping troops in EGY by turn 3-4.

  • :?
    So, who is helping me research this Strategy by also trying some play-testing? 8-).
    In my last game, I built an AC in sz 7 and was able to link up my baltic and med fleets on G2 with it and 2 fighters! 😄

  • Ivan if you want to play test it again I will take Allies, ADS ABatlemap, play by forum.

  • @a44bigdog:

    Ivan if you want to play test it again I will take Allies, ADS ABatlemap, play by forum.

    I have heard bad things about ABatlemap. Problems there and such. Do you ever play on the TripleA forum?
    If not, then I will download and try out the ABatlemap.
    You can send me a private e-mail if you wish, for when you are availiable to play. And thanks for your help buddy.

  • @Crazy:

    Can you elaborate?

    I have never heard of problems…. more personal issues about Battlemaps usage.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    The only problem with Battlemap is that, on rare occasions, when you try to save a file using Save As, the program crashes.  When compared to the huge benefits of Battlemap (smaller program, loads almost instantly, you can see the entire game board on a wide screen, most of the game board on a normal screen, ease of moving units, ease of adding and subtracting movements, the ease of quickly ascertaining income and total unit values, etc) far out weigh the one minor glitch that, if you are smart, won’t ever affect you. (Because you’ll be smart enough to type in the name you want to save it as if you want to use save as, instead of using the mouse to select a name of files.)

  • 2007 AAR League

    some sazoneshave the wrong numbers,butnot an issue if your using same version.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    There’s a patch for it, Nix.  Just like all the patches out there for TripleA, what are there, half a dozen now?

  • 😮 Oh Ya, TripleA, it just keeps getting better all the time! 😉
    It is the best, and it won’t stop until you all convert!
    Meuwww haha!!!  :roll:

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