Good or Evil?



  • Does Osama Bin Laden believe he is a good guy?
    Does he think he is doing something good or does he knowingly act evil?

    I would be interested in what the people on this forum think about this question.



  • I think pretty much all the worst toons think they are good.



  • that dude is out of his gord…but he thinks what hes doing is right. "the koran teaches…(fill in the blank) is what they say. they think that they are doing gods will.

    disclaimer:i am not saying that all muslims are terrorist. im saying that osama b and his cohorts are and they are also muslim.
    (that was for panda, who will now have a pithy retort, and then call me objective 😉 )


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    If you don’t believe what you are doing is right, you do not do it. I don’t believe murder is right, so I do not commit murder. I believe that defending myself is right, so if I am attacked, I will defend myself.

    Ossama believes that giving infidels freedom and power is wrong and that the only way to correct this wrong is to kill them, and killing infidels is right, so he kills those he perceives to be infidels.

    Ossama and his croonies are very much like the Spanish Inquisition, inquisitors. They are religious zealots who have lost site in what their religion actually teaches and wishes them to accomplish. The only way to defeat them is to give so much power of choice to the citzenry in that area and elevate their quality of life so high that no sane person would consider suicide with murder to be worth it.

    It is very hard to recruit a man who has the amenities required and a family to blow himself up. It CAN be done, but it is very hard. It is much easier to get a child off the street (child defined as 25 and younger with no family or job), fill his mind with hate, piss and vinegar, and convince him that killing hundreds of innocents will guarentee him bliss in teh afterlife.

    Since there are many of jobless and poor in the Middle East, due to whatever reason, it is very easy to start up religious militant groups. If you can go in, create stable democracies, improve the technological base of the area so as to be able to provide for medicine, jobs, food, water and transit and then improve the every day morale of the average citizen, you SHOULD see a rapid decline in the ability of terrorist groups to recruit new suicide bombers.

    Thus, improved society would reduce terrorist recruitment which means fewer terrorist acts (as they will eventually run low on volunteers) and hopefully a cessation of terrorist activities. (After all, you’ll never see Ossama strap a bomb to himself and blow himself up in the local market, right?)


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Iraq’s too recent to have an impact to anyone. Two years after the United States shrugged off the oppressive arm of the British Government we did not even have our own government established yet, let alone a permanent codified set of laws. So basing our judgements on a democracy in Iraq trickling into its neighbors is really too soon to tell in either direction, IMO.

    Also, if the United States is busy in Iraq, why cannot Germany and/or France work on Saudi Arabia? Why not Denmark and Italy on Iran? Why not Japan and Canada on North Korea? Why is it that the arguement is we should have done Saudi Arabia or NK or Iran but not, “how can we help so that we can complete this project and move to the next nation and help those people?”

    Basically, I’m saying that we have limited resources and many of those resources are still stationed all over the world. Some of those resources are stationed at home and a miniscule amount of those resources are free to move around the globe where needed. Of those free to move, some are in Afghanistan, some are in Iraq and some are helping to rebuild after the Tsunami. We should not be the world’s 911, and it feels as if we are. (No one praises 911 when they do their job and get the emergency taken care of in a timely manner, but one little screw up and there’s investigations, world reports, crying liberals in the streets saying “won’t anyone think of the children” etc.)

    As far as Ossama goes. I was not trying, in any way shape or form, to justify his actions. What I was attempting to say is, in his twisted little mind, what he is doing is right. And while Ossama himself may not utilize religious zealotism personally, I’m more then sure that his officers do. It is a very easy and effective method to drum up support from the masses, especially the huddled masses, the poor and the down trodden. And especially from an area that was once considered the cream of society, a place where oppulance, social and technilogical innovation was born and a place where transportation must stop.

    However, if you wish, I will speculate as to the cause of the economic depression that has devistated the middle east.

    1. With transportation improvements over the last 400 years, the need to carry goods from continent to continent over land and by boat close to land has diminished to a non-existant level. As this was a primary source of middle eastern taxes and revenue, this devastated their economies.

    2. Financially liberal leadership in the middle east squandered their savings when times were good and did not plan for times to become bad. (No proof of this other then the assumption that good leadership would utilize their treasuries to help their people, since the people are in bad condition, the treasuries should be non-existant.)

    3. Power mad oil czars have taken over the countries of the middle east and established a tyranny of fear and oppression to maintain that power, stripping social privaleges from the people and enforcing laws in a cruel and inhumane manner.

    4. The people, now with no money, no jobs, no homes, beaten and whipped by their government, enslaved to their brothers; have turned to the only source of escape they can find - religion.

    In an environment such as theirs they are told about the pleasures of the afterlife by their local zealots, told about the evils of western culture (true or fabricated, makes no difference) and told that by sacrificing their life for their god and hurting those perceived as evil by the zealots that they will experience bliss in the afterlife.

    With enough indoctrination and repetitive dogma, and in an environment such as that, you can convince quite a number of people who would otherwise scoff and leave.

    (PS: Yes, I believe 80% or more of the problems in the Middle East are not the fault of the West, but rather the natural progression that makes great nations weak and weak nations great. No nation stays on top for ever, look at Spain. In the 1400-1600s they were considered the most powerful nation, or at least one of the most powerful nations, who fears their colors at sea now? Same with the French, under Napoleon they were massive and viewed as undefeatable, until they met the Russian farmers. In the case of the middle east, I think science did them in. Large, safe, ocean going vessels, colonies, airplanes and packing methods all stiffled the trade routes in the middle east and cut off the money supply.)



  • It’s hard for me to imagine anybody not thinking of himself as a good guy. Maybe a schizophrenic.

    I would like to ask those, who answered yes and yet believe in absolute good, to explain this a little bit more.
    Is it that each person has a different view of what is good, but only yours is absolutly correct?
    What, other than being your own point of view, makes your version more true than anybody else’s?

    Thank you for your respond.



  • If you don’t believe what you are doing is right, you do not do it. I don’t believe murder is right, so I do not commit murder. I believe that defending myself is right, so if I am attacked, I will defend myself.

    thats certainly not true. many criminals intentionally do something they know to be wrong, for the effect. how many rapists do you think, really think they are being good guys? they either enjoy the rush of being evil, or simply dont care. but aside from some who have mental issues, i doubt they think they are good.



  • Janus certainly has a point, every human knows the difference between right and wrong, but sometimes they want to do what is wrong, because they like the results. Did Michael Ross think it was right to murder people? i find it difficult to imagine that, deep down, he knew it was wrong, but he liked doing it.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Let me rephrase, what I meant was that those that do evil think they are doing the right thing in their minds. Maybe not the legal thing, or the socially acceptable thing, but the right thing.

    Rapists, generally, attack women because they dislike them, not for the sex. It’s a power thing, they feel it is right to demonstrate they have power over a woman.

    Murderers, generally, attack victims because they need to demonstrate power (as in how dare you stand up to me, etc) and need to prove that their might makes them right.

    In either case, the perpetrator realizes that the activity he is participating in is against the socially accepted status quo and if they are caught they will be in trouble, but this does not mean they do not feel right, or justified may be a better term, in their actions.



  • I think the guy is just a classic sociopath. Believes in what he is doing to such a great degree that even the deaths of his own loved ones wouldn’t even phase him. Such people are only dealt with by killing them off. It is near impossible to show a sociopath the difference between good and evil, god and devil, right and wrong. There is only his brain functional standards. Nothing else.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    In other words you are an Orientalist and ascribe to the belief that Arabs racial inferiority predestines them to be our subordinates. This is problematic b/c not only does it involve overt racism, but also it pressumes they are a different race. Also, you ignore the historical particulars which say the Middle East didn’t get weak until the west got involved. Consider the Ottoman Empire founded in the 14th Century survived until 1920, a mere 50 years after the beginning of Euro influence. The Qajar/Persian empire had existed since Roman times, but within 50 years of the first oil concessions it too was gone. There is a cause and an effect.

    Please stop rephrasing my words in an attempt to make me sound racist. I never said that arabs are racially inferior to any person. What I said is that governments rise and fall to and from greatness over time. Rome rose and fell. France rose and fell. The US has risen and will eventually fall. Great Britian has risen and fallen. Greece has risen and fallen. Russia has risen and fallen. Japan has risen and fallen. It’s just the natural course of events, governments come and governments go, nothing man made; whether made by caucasions, christians, muslims, indians, mexicans, hispanics, americans, or any other delimination you wish to select, lasts for ever.



  • @Jennifer:

    Also, if the United States is busy in Iraq, why cannot Germany and/or France work on Saudi Arabia? Why not Denmark and Italy on Iran? Why not Japan and Canada on North Korea? Why is it that the arguement is we should have done Saudi Arabia or NK or Iran but not, “how can we help so that we can complete this project and move to the next nation and help those people?”

    Denmark and Italy as members of the EU “work on” Iran.
    I am sure Japan “works on” North Korea.

    It is just that “working on” does not mean “invade and set up a new regime” for everyone.



  • @F_alk:

    @Jennifer:

    Also, if the United States is busy in Iraq, why cannot Germany and/or France work on Saudi Arabia? Why not Denmark and Italy on Iran? Why not Japan and Canada on North Korea? Why is it that the arguement is we should have done Saudi Arabia or NK or Iran but not, “how can we help so that we can complete this project and move to the next nation and help those people?”

    Denmark and Italy as members of the EU “work on” Iran.
    I am sure Japan “works on” North Korea.

    It is just that “working on” does not mean “invade and set up a new regime” for everyone.

    This is beautiful . . .
    The following is from http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/asia/japan/2005_peace_security_agenda-en.asp
    you may skip down to “D”, “E”, and “G”.

    you know Jen - you really should do some (ANY!) research before saying SO many of the things you say here.

    Enhancing regional stability and human security

    To facilitate their global partnership, both Governments will enhance policy dialogue in such areas as Afghanistan, the Middle-East Peace Process, and human security. In Afghanistan, the Governments of Canada and Japan will explore the possibility of further cooperation in their peace-building efforts such as security sector reform and assistance to the government and relevant organizations. In the Middle-East Peace Process, the Governments of Canada and Japan recognize the importance of a just, fair and comprehensive resolution of the issue, and to this end, reaffirm their commitment to supporting the Palestinian Authority under its newly elected Raees, Mr. Abbas. Both Governments reaffirm their shared stake in a secure and stable Asia Pacific region, and confirm their determination to continue to work together in regional multilateral fora, such as the ASEAN Regional Forum, which make an important contribution to regional peace and stability. In addition to these regional issues, the Governments of Canada and Japan recognize the importance of a people-centered approach to foreign policy and reaffirm that human security is a major pillar in their foreign policies and a meaningful topic for further bilateral consultation and joint activity. Both Governments acknowledge the final report of the Commission on Human Security and will explore the coordination of approaches and activities on human security to protect and empower people threatened in their survival, livelihood and dignity. Both governments also acknowledge, in line with the recommendations on the responsibility to protect by the UN High Level Panel on Threats, Challenges and Change, that the impact of internal conflict on the security of civilians presents a fundamental challenge to the system of collective security, one which requires an international response beyond traditional efforts to prevent inter-state war.

    D) Advancing non-proliferation, arms control and disarmament (NACD) objectives

    Given the threat posed to the world by the proliferation and excessive accumulation of arms, especially nuclear weapons and their means of delivery, small arms and light weapons (SALW), and landmines, the Governments of Canada and Japan will continue to work together to strengthen international non-proliferation and disarmament mechanisms through: 1) active efforts to assist states in acceding to, implementing, and complying with international NACD treaties; 2) support for the activities of the International Atomic Energy Agency; 3) support for the establishment of robust national export control regimes in all states, especially in reference to conventional weapons including SALW; 4) participation in other multilateral efforts to combat the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and their delivery means, such as the G8 Sea Island Summit Action Plan on Non-Proliferation and the Proliferation Security Initiative; and 5) pursuit of a more comprehensive and effective implementation of the UN Programme of Action on SALW.

    E) Increasing bilateral security and defence exchanges

    Peacekeeping cooperation and other bilateral security and defence relations have grown steadily in recent years. Successful joint naval counter terrorism efforts in the Indian Ocean under Operation Enduring Freedom are indicative of the extent to which these relations have developed. In order to further facilitate bilateral security and defence relations, dialogues and exchanges between the experts of both Governments are essential. The Governments of Canada and Japan will seek to hold a Japan-Canada Peace and Security Symposium every year, which has so far been held every two years to complement the bilateral Political-Military Talks. Also, the Department of National Defence of Canada and the Japan Defense Agency will promote their defence relations through Military to Military Talks and other frameworks in order to enhance Canada Japan defence exchanges. Both Governments continue to increase their dialogue on peacekeeping and peace support issues with a view to identifying areas for enhanced cooperation in support of international peace support operations. Both Governments also reiterate their support for international efforts to build global peacekeeping capacity.
    F) Enhancing the ability of the United Nations to deal with new threats

    As partners in international organizations, the Governments of Canada and Japan will work together toward the early realization of UN reform, particularly reform of the Security Council, toward achieving substantial results at the Leaders Summit in September 2005. The Governments of Canada and Japan look forward to a successful, reform-driven, UN Summit in September 2005. Both Governments welcome the report of the High-Level Panel on Threats, Challenges and Change, as a major contribution to the international community’s ongoing consideration of reforms needed to enable the UN to respond effectively to the challenges of the new century. Both Governments look forward to forthcoming reports by the Millennium Project and the Secretary-General and from other processes as essential elements to the reform process culminating in the Leaders’ Summit in September 2005 and commit to active cooperation on the reform of all areas of UN activities - peace and security, development, and UN institutional reform.
    G) Cooperating to achieve a comprehensive resolution of North Korea issues

    Both Governments call for an early resumption of the Six Party Talks and urge North Korea to promptly come into compliance with the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to fully implement its comprehensive safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency. Both Governments emphasize the need to achieve a nuclear-free Korean Peninsula, and will promote this end through all means at their disposal. The Government of Canada also supports efforts by the Japanese side to resolve the issue of abduction of Japanese nationals by North Korea. The Governments of Canada and Japan urge North Korea to act in good faith and urgently to resolve this issue.



  • @jedimaster:

    that dude is out of his gord…but he thinks what hes doing is right. "the koran teaches…(fill in the blank) is what they say. they think that they are doing gods will.

    But is this his motive for action? To follow the Koran? I would say no…what Osama really wanted to do was to create a second Caliphate(Islamic conquest/unification)…in order to do this, he had to find a way to gain support and make the most powerful nations(United States) weaker…or at least seem weak…the muslim world had increasing hate from the 1990’s toward the USA…Osama wanted to fuel this rage into a conquest…as crazy as he may seem, he was actually a strategic mastermind with the operation he set up, and how much he figured out about US intelligence and security…his ideals may be messed up…but they aren’t necessarily based on the Koran…



  • OBL fears that his death will end his cause. His hiding indicates the fear of his own martyrdom.

    If he truly believed that he was good, martyrdom would not matter to him. He knows that God will not protect him in the open of any country that values freedom and justice over violence and terrorism.

    Napoleon in his waning days, still lead his troops from the battlefield, and not some far away safe haven, cave, or bunker.



  • His fear of death… It likely means that he knows the afterlife will not be kind to him.

    He probably knows that the 72 virgin thing is among the lies spread by the radicals.



  • Maybe OBL doesn’t wish to be found because he believes that he will rot in a courtroom and then a jail for a prolonged period of time if he’s not killed right away. Also dead men have trouble killing infidels - maybe this is more important to him than being dead? Or maybe he has other reasons to not be dead right now.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Assuming your right, CC, and that other nations are working on Iran and NK, then why is the world asking the US to work on them? Surely the UN - a much larger organization then the mere United States, with all the resources and personnel from hundreds of countries - could do a much better and faster job without the US helping out.

    So where’s the human rights in those countries? Why do I not see headlines every day on the frontpage speaking about all the wonders and majesty of how the UN has straightened up Iran and North Korea?

    Perhaps because the UN is waiting for us to do it, and until then, is doing absolutely diddly-squat but sitting on it’s rather rotund arse and talking big?

    As for the link, all it says is you are yakking away and making grandious speaches. Nothing in there says anything about any ultimatems on either country, or even sending emmissaries over to assist them in understanding what it is “we” (as in the western world) would desire to see “them” (as in the offending nations) do before “we” accept them into the mainstream.

    There’s lots of talk about how you have all these wonderful plans and meetings and consortiums, but there’s no action. Talk is great. You need to talk to make a plan, but talk shouldn’t be the solitary course you take, you MUST take an ACTION. Verbs change the world, not ideas. (And no, action does not only mean military action. Demonstrations are actions. Rebuilding is an action. Negotiating can be an action provided change actually takes place. etc.)

    As for Ossama, he’s hiding because he knows what he did is wrong in the eyes of the world, however, he feels he was right and justified in doing what he has done and what he would like to do. His followers also feel like he was justified, otherwise they would not follow him.

    Knowledge of right and wrong does not necessarily mean that the person with that knowledge feels as if the standards apply to them. If the standards do not apply, then what they are doing - while wrong if others do it - is perfectly right for them to do. ( in their minds. )



  • Osama is hiding for a multitude of reasons…I would guess mainly because he wouldn’t want to face the torture that the US would use to get info out of him…I’m sure he’d rather die than be forced to reveal vital info about his operation…



  • Why do I not see headlines every day on the frontpage speaking about all the wonders and majesty of how the USA has straightened up Iraq?

    I’m living in a country part of which wasn’t democratic for 40 years. And it wasn’t war or an ultimatum which brought the change. In fact the BRD (West Germany) recorgnized the DDR (East Germany) as a sovereign state and even lent money to it. On the contrary Cuba remains communistic despite a US embargo and military action.



  • @Meijing:

    Why do I not see headlines every day on the frontpage speaking about all the wonders and majesty of how the USA has straightened up Iraq?

    oh come on - there is some reason. After all - look at that news footage of all of the Iraqis cheering at the toppled statue of Saddam :roll:

    I’m living in a country part of which wasn’t democratic for 40 years. And it wasn’t war or an ultimatum which brought the change. In fact the BRD (West Germany) recorgnized the DDR (East Germany) as a sovereign state and even lent money to it. On the contrary Cuba remains communistic despite a US embargo and military action.

    this is funny (not in the haha sense)
    I firmly believe that if the US took exactly the opposite direction with regards to Cuba for the last hundred years or so (i.e. with every fork in the road if it made a different choice) then things would be much different. The US chased Cuba into the arms of Russia making Castro choose a more communist road than he was prepared to go down. With each of the hostile maneuvers directed at Cuba and Castro, Cuba reacted against them (not with - surprising, eh?). What happened is that Canada and Spain are two of the few democratic/capitalistic nations who have Castro’s ear. The problem with this is that the carrot is not big enough yet.


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