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New Tax System, how would you do it?



  • I know I have picked on taxes lately. And I know that old saying “Taxes are the dues you pay for civilization” But are taxes too low? They too high?? How would you do the tax system??



  • The American tax system is fatally flawed. It unconstitutionally relies on higher % taxes of the top 10% of America. The problem? We cannot lower the taxes on the rich. Why? Because we spend too much money. The system is in place, and there is no way to keep spending the vast amounts of money our Government spends and lower taxes at the same time.

    The solution?

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=849

    Reform Social Security.



  • Yanny, how can you seriously claim that a progressive tax system (ie brackets) is not constitional? There is a concept called marginal utility, it means basically “How much does that extra really change your life”. A family of four with an income of 30,000 gets 5,000 more or 20%. For them that extra money might mean health insurance or an education for the kids. A family of four earning 30 million a year gets 20% more or an extra 5 million more. How much does their life change? More cavier for the dogs pet?

    The US has the largest economy for 1 simple reason…. The life of the average joe is good enough he or she doesn’t seriously think about eating the rich, they are happy enough making a decent living and making some filthy rich. You make the rich richer at the expense of alienating the masses you have a situation life south america where the rich are truly afraid for their lives…

    BB



  • Yanny, how can you seriously claim that a progressive tax system (ie brackets) is not constitional? There is a concept called marginal utility, it means basically “How much does that extra really change your life”. A family of four with an income of 30,000 gets 5,000 more or 20%. For them that extra money might mean health insurance or an education for the kids. A family of four earning 30 million a year gets 20% more or an extra 5 million more. How much does their life change? More cavier for the dogs pet?

    Yes, I understand what your saying. But why should I (I’m 15 years old, and have some investments) be charged with a 50% tax when my neighbor is charged with a 35% tax?

    The problem? Our Government spends too much money. Whether it’s Air Force 1 flying around the country or feeding Israel’s coffers, we spend money where it shouldn’t be spent. And the side effect caused by the Government’s overspending is this messed up tax system.

    Thomas Jefferson ran a 10,000 man army (bigger than anything America had previously), the entire US Government, and the Louisiana purchase, without a single tax except tariffs? How? He didn’t waste money like our Government does today.



  • Sorry about using the caps Yanny. If that is a rule I did not know!! I have not been a while for a while and just started comming back So I did not know about a cap rule. I’ll keep the caps in topics to a miniunum.

    What about a flat tax system?? Like 15% max tax on all?? Not on the poor of course. Do you guys believe that the marraige tax is ok or should we get rid of it?



  • Well, I’d be in favor of a flat tax. However, the Federal and State Governments must balance their budget with this flat tax. I really hate leaders who propose a tax cut which just puts us into debt, like oh say, Dubbleya. Our national debt is like a leech on our side. Only now its breeding and we have 10 leeches.

    Couple of taxes I disagree with:

    1. As you said, Marriage tax. Stupid idea.
    2. Death tax. Everything involved has already been taxed.
    3. Divident tax. The money has already been taxed.

    No problem on caps. It just ya know, looks more professional when not in caps.



  • Getting rid of the marriage tax would be a good idea. But I have to disagree with getting rid of the death tax, think of what would happen without the death tax. In a few hundred years there would be famlies so rich they could build armies and threaten the nation. They would be so rich they could run in elections and out spend any oppentent. Their wealth could result in a monoply of power. Billionaries would become mult-billionaries. Multi-billionaries would become dare i say trillionaries??
    Granted this would happen over several hundred years but the end result would be a super class of the super rich!! These families would be so rich they could buy out any compition!! Money Buys Power!! Look at our congress at all the rich people in it.

    What exactly did you disagree with Bush’s tax cut. I have no problem raising or cutting taxxes when needed, but for the future please keep the death tax.



  • I agree that the gov could trim the budget a bit, so lets just imagine a pie…… then make it a bit smaller. That is what we spend and it is good. Educate the kid of the loser parents so he doesn’t have to punk off rich folks to get by, instead if s/he shows promise the path is there to become a giant in some field.

    Yanny, if you are in the 50% bracket you must be earning >$100,000, if your neighbour is in that bracket he is making like 25,000. You want him to pay more so you can pay less? And 50%? You should move to Ontario, Canada… Way lower… 🙂

    A flat tax again bites into marginal utility. 20% of a $30,000/year pay affects the quality of life way more than 20% of a $3,000,000/year pay. The guy making 30 mill a year should be happy to pay 9 mill to net 21 mill for the chance to milk a willing workforce of millions of content peasants.

    If you want the rich to pay less by any tax system you can possibly imagine, the ugly reality is the poor pay more. If you think that having an even wider gap between the bill gates and the joe dirts of the world is better then examine the history of the empires that had a class of baron robbers who rapped the masses… Check your history books because they ALL failed. Sophistry is fine but blunt logic is better. The rich pay less then the poor pay more… Finee.

    Now, is the tax system wacky? Yabetcha… Is having a society where a class of people (tax lawyers etc.) do nothing but shuffle papwers good? Nope. Cut the loopholes.



  • @waraxis:

    Getting rid of the marriage tax would be a good idea. But I have to disagree with getting rid of the death tax, think of what would happen without the death tax. In a few hundred years there would be famlies so rich they could build armies and threaten the nation. They would be so rich they could run in elections and out spend any oppentent. Their wealth could result in a monoply of power. Billionaries would become mult-billionaries. Multi-billionaries would become dare i say trillionaries??
    Granted this would happen over several hundred years but the end result would be a super class of the super rich!! These families would be so rich they could buy out any compition!! Money Buys Power!! Look at our congress at all the rich people in it.

    What exactly did you disagree with Bush’s tax cut. I have no problem raising or cutting taxxes when needed, but for the future please keep the death tax.

    What a load of crap. :roll:
    That’s such a gross over-exaggeration it’s not even funny. Why do you have to resort to the scare-tactic with people? How 'bout we eliminate it because it’s UNFAIR! Ever thought of letting people keep the money they earn? How about letting some grandparents pass some college money on to their grandchildren? Wow, what a novel idea…

    I would agree with everything Yanny has said so far, but I would clarify it a bit. I don’t neccessarily have a problem with the “amount” of money that the government spends, I have a problem with the amount of money the government “wastes.” I mean, millions of dollars on a missile might seem like a lot, but I have no problem because those missiles are saving my life. However, thousands of dollars paid out to some fat-ass George Costanza on unemployment who is drowing in laziness seems like a rip-off to the rest of the country.

    I think the root of the problem here is politicians. More specifically, politicians who think they know what’s best for us. They think they can invest our money better than we can (Social Security). They think they can decide which doctor is best for us (Universal Health Care). They think that they are (as part of the government) simply “entitled” to our money.

    The facts speak for themselves. 😉



  • It’s not a load of crap Deviant:Scripter. I have no problem with a limit say anything under 5 or 10 million the governmet can’t touch. You think letting rich families just get richer through the generations will be good for the country?? I wasn’t talking about the average joe being taxed after death or the small business owner, I was talking about CEOs and Billionaires and people who make 50 million a year for example. You mean to tell me that if johnny gets only 50 million and not 100 million because of death taxes that he has been some how screwed?? It’s not a scare-tactic. You don’t think money corrupts?? You think having all those rich people in Congress has helped this nation??

    I don’t mind rich people but SUPER RICH I have a problem with!! You don’t need a billion dollars to live on.



  • I mean, millions of dollars on a missile might seem like a lot, but I have no problem because those missiles are saving my life.

    Smart bombs or smart kids? Your choice.

    As for the tax system, Milton Friedman (6 months after receiving his noble prize in economics) calculated that America would only have to pay only a flat tax based on current government spending. (10% by the rich [> 100,000 I believe], 7% by the middle class [ > 50,000], 4% by the working class [> 35,000], and nothing by the lower class. In fact, if his calculations were right, this would actually lead to a budget surplus. How so? Friedman proposed to eliminate all deductions and special interest subsidies. Problem was, Friedman was an economists and not a politican.



  • You mean to tell me that if johnny gets only 50 million and not 100 million because of death taxes that he has been some how screwed??

    Whether he deserves 50 million or 100 million is not up to you to decide. It’s his money, he earned it. Somehow you’re turning taxes into a way to “punish” people for getting “too” rich. That’s rediculous and nobody should put up with that. Is anybody at all surprised why rich people find tax-free ways to invest their income? It’s becuase the government is trying to screw them at every corner just for being succesful.

    Smart bombs or smart kids? Your choice.

    Why can’t we have both?
    Money can buy smarter weapons and bombs, which will lead to less American lives lost. However, the problems with our educational system is not due to a lack of funding…



  • @Yanny:

    3. Divident tax. The money has already been taxed.

    I don’T know how it works in the US, but dividends should be taxed like any other income as well, as it is nothing more than an additional income. @waraxis:

    I don’t mind rich people but SUPER RICH I have a problem with!! You don’t need a billion dollars to live on.

    agrees wholeheartedly
    @Deviant:Scripter:

    Why do you have to resort to the scare-tactic with people? How 'bout we eliminate it because it’s UNFAIR! Ever thought of letting people keep the money they earn? How about letting some grandparents pass some college money on to their grandchildren? Wow, what a novel idea…

    I mean, millions of dollars on a missile might seem like a lot, but I have no problem because those missiles are saving my life.

    Hey, if any student needs 50 millions as “some college money”, then he should not be allowed to study economics at least.
    D:S, you consequently ignore the fact that we are talking about the amount, and you are onyl talking about “yes or no”. THere is more in the world than black and white: it is called gray, and there are lots of differents grays.
    And millions of dollars could better be used to educate and help those people which you supposedly call enemies of the US, then you get friends and peace for the same price that you would get enemies, fear and truce.

    @Deviant:Scripter:

    Whether he deserves 50 million or 100 million is not up to you to decide. It’s his money, he earned it. Somehow you’re turning taxes into a way to “punish” people for getting “too” rich. That’s rediculous and nobody should put up with that. Is anybody at all surprised why rich people find tax-free ways to invest their income?

    He earned it. How can a single person do work that is worth say 100 millions? Ok, a few can probably, but there are more earning that amount that don’t work for it, but let others work for them. Seeing rich people look for loopholes is seeing that they try to exploit the society even more, that they do not take up the responsibilities that come with their wealth. You say the “lazy unemployed” is the one who rips off the community?? You must be kidding, but i fear you are not.



  • Personally, I think in general Americans are pretty smart. That being said, y’all sometimes forget to look around the world and see if somebody has a smart idea too… The entire problem stems from the fact that tax for companies and people are different, people get screwed… They pay a higher % of their income as tax. So poor people get ALL or most of their income in the people ie hight tax category. Now rich people buy a % of a company and get more of their income in the corporate ie low tax bracket and screw the poor working class folk. Heck, lots of companies don’t pay taxes at all dispite profits, saying it’s not fair to tax it twice is fine but not taxing it all ain’t the answer… Since rich Americans have no qualms about screwing poor folk this Bush plan works well… However, some countries in the world have a tax code that has the company state to the dividend recipient how much tax was paid on his/her behalf. You do your income tax has normal, add the 5,000 of dividends into your income box, add the 1,000 the company paid in income tax to get that 5,000 for you into your taxes paid box. Do your tax, if you are poor you might get that 1,000 back. It would be tax neutral for most middle class. And if your average income tax % is higher than the 20% corporate in this example you merely pay the difference between the two rates. Seems fair to all no?

    BB



  • war__,
    you say a mental worker(CEO like Bill gates, Mark Hughes)shouldn’t keep his money. Yet you would give it to the government … the most inefficient of systems!
    Bill Gates helped make more hundred/ten/millionaires than anyone ever!
    Bill Walton(WALMART) made more billionaires dying than anyone made while alive!
    Mark Hughes(Herbalife) made more people self-employed, self-supported than anyone ever.

    Somebody thinks Michael Jordan(update my BB example, please)/Emmit Smith(went free agent today after being cut from $7,000,000 a year contract)/ Rush Limbaugh($37,000,000 a year contract)/and Dave Letterman($17,000,000 a year contract[more than Jay Leno]) are worth it. The system has worked/evolved for years to create the greatest economic republic the world has ever known. Other countries are free to evolve as they choose(except Iraq/N Korea/citizen killing regimes. 😉 )

    China is probably the only country with a chance to make it’s own way. The population and low wages gives them a little room to adjust. Capunism! Your birthplace is the PRC!



  • I don’T know how it works in the US, but dividends should be taxed like any other income as well, as it is nothing more than an additional income.

    Any profits given to stockholders has already been taxed. Why should it be taxed again?

    As for the tax system, Milton Friedman (6 months after receiving his noble prize in economics) calculated that America would only have to pay only a flat tax based on current government spending. (10% by the rich [> 100,000 I believe], 7% by the middle class [ > 50,000], 4% by the working class [> 35,000], and nothing by the lower class. In fact, if his calculations were right, this would actually lead to a budget surplus. How so? Friedman proposed to eliminate all deductions and special interest subsidies. Problem was, Friedman was an economists and not a politican.

    I agree completely. The biggest problem we have in our country today are corrupt politicians and their special interest groups. Our Government could run easily on half what it runs now should we eliminate all the waste.



  • I agree completely. The biggest problem we have in our country today are corrupt politicians and their special interest groups. Our Government could run easily on half what it runs now should we eliminate all the waste.

    Yes, though the wealthy may say it is not fair that they are taxed in the highest tax bracket of 50%, it is also not fair that they continually find deductions and loopholes in which to get out of paying taxes that the average person would have almost no way of finding out unless he hired a permanent accountant/financer/economists .



  • Deviant:Scripter it’s not punishing people it’s about making sure that monoplys don’t happen!! The best way to ensure that is the Death Tax. Now I did say their should be a limit 5 or 10 maybe even 20 million I could live with being not touched by the death tax. And don’t forget that those rich people didn’t earn that money themsevles. They did have help for the most part. So please answer this question Deviant:Scripter

    What would happen if you put more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands?? I’ll bet it won’t be good for most of the people of the nation.
    Monoplys don’t help the common man they only help the rich!!!

    Now Xi I said I support Death Taxes not taking it away from living people after you are dead you don’t need a billion dollars! But Bill Gates should remeber that he can’t do it alone, there are people who work for him you know. He didn’t make those billion all by himself.

    Now I’ll be the first to admit the Federal Government needs to work better and Yanny is right there is alot of waste but like it or not with a country this size you will need a large governmet. The government every so often needs to go on a diet and shed some programs.

    With Dividend taxes that I’m neutral on. I have no idea how that system works.

    And It is sad when you here about the Rich looking for tax loopholes!!
    I guess 50 million isn’t worth that much anymore. Those poor rich people :roll:

    Why don’t they try living pay check to pay check. Now we people need some tax loop holes.



  • 1 million is more than enough to get someone started…
    However, the rich can easily find ways around this law.



  • TG Moses VI I have to disagree with you there 1 million may sound a good point but what about small business owners?? They may be worth let say 2 million but have 80% in the business and not as cash. As long as small business owners are not touched, keep the death tax.



  • wa__s,
    Bill paid his people better than they were paid before they worked for him.
    Some of the millionaires he made by paying them … others by building on what he started.

    T_6, thou quoteth the Master Milton!
    Genuflect and whip thyself, pageturner. 😛



  • TG Moses VI I have to disagree with you there 1 million may sound a good point but what about small business owners?? They may be worth let say 2 million but have 80% in the business and not as cash. As long as small business owners are not touched, keep the death tax.
    

    Yeah, I wouldn’t be so much against that. 🙂
    However, the super rich have the ability to hide their cash in many accounts, ect.



  • @Yanny:

    I don’T know how it works in the US, but dividends should be taxed like any other income as well, as it is nothing more than an additional income.

    Any profits given to stockholders has already been taxed. Why should it be taxed again?

    Because it is income?
    If you pay income taxes, and with your money pay a plumber or whatever…. then this plumber has to pay income taxes as well, that would be the same double taxing.
    If you see the dividend as income of the worth of the money you invest, and your wage (correct word?) as the income of the worth of work you invest… why should they be treated differently?



  • Because you already own part of that company. The company has already made the money. Now, they simply are giving out money to the owners of a company. Your not working for the company, you are the company. Any money received still counts towards your total income earned for the year, it just isnt taxed.



  • He earned it. How can a single person do work that is worth say 100 millions? Ok, a few can probably, but there are more earning that amount that don’t work for it, but let others work for them. Seeing rich people look for loopholes is seeing that they try to exploit the society even more, that they do not take up the responsibilities that come with their wealth. You say the “lazy unemployed” is the one who rips off the community?? You must be kidding, but i fear you are not.

    Okay, again…it’s not your job or anybody elses to decide whether his work is worth a million dollars or not. Our society dictates how much people make. Michael Jordon and all the other sports stars made millions because people were willing to pay $50 a game to go see them play.

    So please answer this question Deviant:Scripter

    What would happen if you put more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands?? I’ll bet it won’t be good for most of the people of the nation.

    Why are their fewer and fewer hands? I fail to see how passing down money from generation to generation will form a “monopoly.” Ok, so Bill Gates has $50 billion…and that affects me how? I’m not comparing myself or my income to him, so however much money he makes affects me in no way whatsoever.

    Monoplys don’t help the common man they only help the rich!

    Are you sure about that? Becuase there have been beneficial monopolies…

    Okay, since I answered your question, you can answer mine:

    Will your parents or grandparents be affected by the death tax?


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