If you are playing Revised with a bid then one possibility is to add a 2nd G transport to the Med fleet instead of adding units to Libya/Algeria. It doubles the transport capacity and can make the Russian player weary on an amphibious attack on the Caucasus/Ukraine.
Like mentioned above the drawback is that additional units sent to Africa won’t be used on the Eastern front and the 2nd transport will be sunk with the rest of the fleet if the Allies decide to do so.
Build 2 Japanese ICs round one?
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Some pretty wild arguments out there:
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Someone said you need 12-14 units for a number of turn to make a push on Moscow. Does that mean Japan should capitulate straight away? Assuming a mix of inf and arm, 12 units cost 48 IPCs… which Japan will not have any time soon.
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Someone said Allies will have the entire initial US and UK fleets, plus 2 turns of US naval builds, at the Solomons by turn 3. There is NO WAY I’m letting both the initial UK and initial US Pearl Harbour fleet survive! Even playing defensively with Japan at sea, and not buying new naval units, one of the two initial fleets can be taken out with minimal losses.
I’ll try to sum up what was said:
I initally said 2 ICs on turn 1 is a good strat against both a KGF and a KJF. From what I heard, I understand that:
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Against a KGF, having 2 ICs in Asia as early as possible is fabulous. It allows you to pump out 6 arm per turn, plus use your initial trns (plus maybe one new one) to shuttle 4-6 inf/art.
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Against a KJF, my feeling is that it’s also very promising. It allows you to make a serious stand and at least hold your possessions in Asia. If you are being pressured hard on the mainland, you can use the ICs to produce inf only, which leaves you with at least 15 IPCs per turn to spend on navy. And you don’t need trns to defend Asia, meaning you can use them as cannon fodder, and more importantly, you don;t have to split your navy or move it to awkward places to guard your trns bringing troops to Asia.
All in all, I have still not heard a valid argument against buying 2 ICs on Japan’s turn. :-D
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All in all, I have still not heard a valid argument against buying 2 ICs on Japan’s turn. :-D
Then try this one…
If you buy 2 IC’s on J1…
You will only be able to land 2 units to Asia on J1, and 2 more units via TRN on J2. That leaves you with only the units that survived your J1 attacks to secure your IC’s. If Russia staged to Bury, that means you ARE losing Manch on R2. Russia may not hold it, but you WILL lose it. And UK can stage so as to take FIC on UK2. Again, they may not hold it, but they WILL take it.
Now, that means at least one of your J1 IC’s has fallen to the enemy. So you cannot build there in J2. Even if you liberate it, you can’t build there until J3. And since you lack TRN’s, your available forces to liberate it are much reduced… you are going to have to pull forces out of China to liberate it. Meaning USA/USSR can drive back into China and liberate THAT for a turn.
If you build TWO IC’s on J1, you are going to spend 2-3 turns just trying to get where you can build at both of them, and preventign the Allies from building there. Meanwhile, while you have your AF, etc. tied up providing punch for your VERY small number of mainland units as they try to secure the new IC’s, the US and UK can also play havoc with your fleet. They can;t kill it, not without investing in Navy, but they can to a lot of damage to it, or force you to retreat to SZ60/61, and possibly get a TRN/Support Ship force loose in the South Pacific to further trash Japan’s income by island hoping.
There, is THAT a good enough reason fo you?
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Now THAT is finally a valid point. I admit that if UK and USSR move agressively on turn 1, the ICs may not be defendable.
Thus, the caveat to this strategy is: It will not be viable unless you can defend both ICs. But since you won’t actually build them until AFTER both the USSR and UK have made their moves, Japan can adjust.
If the UK destroys the Japanese trn in sz 59 and reinforces India, AND USSR stages 6 inf in Bury, and/or moves an arm/ftr into range, then buying 2 ICs is definitely not a good idea.
If, however, only one of the above happens, then you should be able to reinforce the IC that is in danger of being taken, and set yourself up for a succesful Asian campaign from J2 on.
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Now THAT is finally a valid point. I admit that if UK and USSR move agressively on turn 1, the ICs may not be defendable.
Thus, the caveat to this strategy is: It will not be viable unless you can defend both ICs. But since you won’t actually build them until AFTER both the USSR and UK have made their moves, Japan can adjust.
If the UK destroys the Japanese trn in sz 59 and reinforces India, AND USSR stages 6 inf in Bury, and/or moves an arm/ftr into range, then buying 2 ICs is definitely not a good idea.
If, however, only one of the above happens, then you should be able to reinforce the IC that is in danger of being taken, and set yourself up for a succesful Asian campaign from J2 on.
You just contradicted yourself.
BEFORE you said against a KJF, two ICs was still good.
Is sounds like you are you reversing your opinion… are you?
If that’s the case, then the two IC buy is a conditional good buy, right?
I can agree against a KGF move, it might be a good move.I contend 1 IC J1 is enough… get some more transorts to go get those inf from your islands, for expansion purposes (read Australia, new zealand, Africa? even America pressure). Another IC won’t accomplish these key aspects to allow maximum Japanese expansion.
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If the initial USSR and UK moves I described form part of a KJF, then yes, I accept that 2 ICs is not a good strategy.
In all other scenarios, I think it would work fine.
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My contention is it’s way easier for the allies to contain Germany early and then spill over into stopping Japan when she gets close enough to Moscow.
KJF can be a very effective alied strategy, but to do it properly, IMHO you need to position yourself correctly with Russia on turn 1, and often this can show your hand to the axis player (Read Germany reacts properly), rendering this as a less optimal allied strategy.
What I dont agree with is that it is “less optimal”. Certainly, given tournament conditions, KJF is valuable, but IMHO it is effective in time limited games or to 10-12 VC games.
Squirecam
I think you’ve missed my point, I said if Germany makes the appropriate counter moves to an initial KJF Russia 1 move, then KJF is less optimal.
I didn’t say KJF is generally less optimal.
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My contention is it’s way easier for the allies to contain Germany early and then spill over into stopping Japan when she gets close enough to Moscow.
KJF can be a very effective alied strategy, but to do it properly, IMHO you need to position yourself correctly with Russia on turn 1, and often this can show your hand to the axis player (Read Germany reacts properly), rendering this as a less optimal allied strategy.
What I dont agree with is that it is “less optimal”. Certainly, given tournament conditions, KJF is valuable, but IMHO it is effective in time limited games or to 10-12 VC games.
Squirecam
I think you’ve missed my point, I said if Germany makes the appropriate counter moves to an initial KJF Russia 1 move, then KJF is less optimal.
I agree with this.
Squirecam
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I think it is very possible to “disguise” a KJF all the way up until US 1.
Infact, I now use pretty much the same opening for the Allies (R1 and UK1) then decide on US 1 which route I want to take.
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Possibly, but if you don’t take the Japanese ICs in Manch and FIC with the Russians and/or British in T1, it’ll be a long time before you can seriously threaten them again.
I maintain: If both ICs can be defended throughout T1 (and I admit that’s a big if), they’re great to have against any Allied strategy.
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I meant to say T2 of course.
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I think it is very possible to “disguise” a KJF all the way up until US 1.
Infact, I now use pretty much the same opening for the Allies (R1 and UK1) then decide on US 1 which route I want to take.
Yes, you can disguise it.
But what AR and I was saying is that to take maximum advantage USSR 2, troops need to be placed in certain areas, which if put there, gives Germany not subtle hints on what you plan to do.
If you dont do these moves, you can still KJF, but it wont be as strong, since your USSR troops are not put in the best spot to exploit a japanese opening.
Squirecam
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AR,
You going to Greg’s spring gathering??
Squirecam
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It is not necessarily about threatening them, I look at it as can Japan fill their production capability.
(assume Japan losses Kwa trn on UK1)
Option 1 - buy 2 ICs earn 36
On J2 they can get 8 units to Aisa (8 units out of a possible 14)
J2 - bought 1 trn, 2 arm, 6 infOn J3 they get ~10 units to Asia (10 out of 14)
bought ~ 2 arm, 10 inf (need another trn or only get 10 units to Asia out of 14)J4 buy 3rd trn and troops and you still only top out at 12 units out of 14.
Option 2 - Buy 3 trns
On J2 you get 8 units to Asia ( 8 units out of 8 )
bought 1 IC, 7 infOn J3 get 10 units to Asia (11 out of 11 with inf from islands)
bought 2 arm, 9 inf (save 3) - (11 units out of 11)Then buy you second IC on J4 and you can still max out at 11 for 11, then max out at 14 for 14.
I think I did the math right, so from my pov, as Japan you want to max out your current production levels before upgrading with ICs on the mainland.
You already start with an 8 level from Japan, jumping immediately to 14 isn’t beneficial since you can’t fill 14 for quite some time.
that is 42 IPC if you are only building inf, throw in 6 tanks and 4 inf instead and you top out at 10 units.
Why not get 1 IC and 4 trns and top out at 11 and you can now get 6 arm and 5 inf (if that is the rout you go) to Aisa and it only cost you 15 (IC) + 24 (3 other trns) = 39
vs.
30 (2 IC) + 8 (1 trn other) = 38 BUT only 10 units, to get 11 you need another trn, so
30 + 16 = 46.So it is 39 vs. 38 or
39 vs. 46.I’ll take the 39 in both cases for the flexability alone.
Plus I like to try and get one Japan IC closer to Moscow when I have secured Asia. -
I think it is very possible to “disguise” a KJF all the way up until US 1.
Infact, I now use pretty much the same opening for the Allies (R1 and UK1) then decide on US 1 which route I want to take.
Yes, you can disguise it.
But what AR and I was saying is that to take maximum advantage USSR 2, troops need to be placed in certain areas, which if put there, gives Germany not subtle hints on what you plan to do.
If you dont do these moves, you can still KJF, but it wont be as strong, since your USSR troops are not put in the best spot to exploit a japanese opening.
Squirecam
I disagree (about the strength of the disguised KJF that is)
In the strat I use, Russia has nothing to do with Japan anyway, so it is of little concern to me. -
I think it is very possible to “disguise” a KJF all the way up until US 1.
Infact, I now use pretty much the same opening for the Allies (R1 and UK1) then decide on US 1 which route I want to take.
Yes, you can disguise it.
But what AR and I was saying is that to take maximum advantage USSR 2, troops need to be placed in certain areas, which if put there, gives Germany not subtle hints on what you plan to do.
If you dont do these moves, you can still KJF, but it wont be as strong, since your USSR troops are not put in the best spot to exploit a japanese opening.
Squirecam
I disagree (about the strength of the disguised KJF that is)
In the strat I use, Russia has nothing to do with Japan anyway, so it is of little concern to me.That may be true for you.
In the way I KJF, I use all 3 countries. Therefore, USSR placement is important.
Let me ask you a couple Q if I can on your moves:
1 - UKR attack?? (I dont)
2 - Add India troops?? (I do)
3 - Bury stack?? (I do)Squirecam
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AR,
You going to Greg’s spring gathering??
Squirecam
I don’t have the time to travel to a tourneyment.
It’s hard enough getting an hour or two here or there for a PBEM game, although I can swing a Friday night every now and then with my gaming group for some FTF.
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AR,
You going to Greg’s spring gathering??
Squirecam
I don’t have the time to travel to a tourneyment.
It’s hard enough getting an hour or two here or there for a PBEM game, although I can swing a Friday night every now and then with my gaming group for some FTF.
Spring Gathering is NOT a tournament.
Just 30 people playing FTF games. Its just for fun. No pressure, just a chance to play with some great people and try out different stuff. Plus some nice raffle prizes Greg has.
I know TomJag is heading down for it. If you can, you should try to make it. It should be a lot of fun.
Squirecam
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Yeah, mine might be better described as a Cripple Japan First.
R1
I have done Wrus or Wrus and Ukr (sometimes with 3 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm, 2 ftr).
At the moment I’m leaning toward just Wrus.
No Bury Stack, all Eastern troops reatreat (they’ll be needed against Ger) OR a Yak stack, which then moves to Novo once Japan has unloaded enough in Bury.UK 1
Retreat Trj and Ind to a Per stack with fleet unification in Sz 30 (no inf on trns yet)US 1 should I go through with it
Sin retreat to Kaz
Join UK fleet in Sz 8 with troops
Buy 2 ac, 1 ftr to have 2 ac 4 ftrs, 1 bb, 1 dd, 1 trn in Sz 55.Round 2
Russia holds her own agains Ger
UK/US hit Alg
UK fleet in sz 30 (if alive) can pick up Aus troops, or head to Aus to meet with US, or take Per troops to Afr (all pending J fleet)
US can build up fleet or head to Sol for meeting with UKRound 3
UK/US to Afr again (or switch to Nor) pending Ger purchases.
If they bought navy you probably have to go to Nor to block any assualt on UK.
Etc…Note:
If Ger goes navy heavy (possible assualt on UK) on G1 or something I simply forget about the KJF idea and plan accordingly. -
I think it is very possible to “disguise” a KJF all the way up until US 1.
Infact, I now use pretty much the same opening for the Allies (R1 and UK1) then decide on US 1 which route I want to take.
Yes, you can disguise it.
But what AR and I was saying is that to take maximum advantage USSR 2, troops need to be placed in certain areas, which if put there, gives Germany not subtle hints on what you plan to do.
If you dont do these moves, you can still KJF, but it wont be as strong, since your USSR troops are not put in the best spot to exploit a japanese opening.
Squirecam
I disagree (about the strength of the disguised KJF that is)
In the strat I use, Russia has nothing to do with Japan anyway, so it is of little concern to me.UK and USA would have to get after Japan pretty damn fast and hard ….
I think it’s best to keep Japan from ever getting going. Â Japan with only mid-upper $30s income gives the US economic/production advantage time to get after Japans navy. Â USSR is right there to thwart Japans opening round expansion… UK forces are limited while US takes a bit to get there.
These leads to Russia doing the early dirty work, UK keeping Japan honest and poor by holding India and possibly trading FIC… USA comes in to either force Japanese Naval purchases or swoop in on the big islands (or both).
I am NOT saying that KJF MUST use Russians, in fact, I imagine it’s possible to have Russia take on Germany full force (with a strong slow w/d from out east) wiht UK help as much as possible.
KJF can have several flavors, often times they are successful simply because the Japanese player has never seen said flavor before and then fails to properly react. Â A seasoned Revised Japanese player, IMHO, can withstand the UK/USA KJF pressure.
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Spring Gathering is NOT a tournament.
Just 30 people playing FTF games. Its just for fun. No pressure, just a chance to play with some great people and try out different stuff. Plus some nice raffle prizes Greg has.
I know TomJag is heading down for it. If you can, you should try to make it. It should be a lot of fun.
Squirecam
Sorry I misunderstood about Spring Gathering.
There’s a 14 page thread at AH about the Spring gathering I don’t have time to look through… is there an easier place to get the details?
Dates, location, rules (I don’t like time/round constrainted games)…?
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