German Factory Placement

[Jennifer]

Yea, it will.  I honestly don’t see how Japan can both keep America at bay and move into Russia.  Russia is too vast in Revised.  And if America moves fast enough, Japan’ll loose out trying to do a land grab in Asia before committing in the sea.

Same things with the German factory in W. Europe.  You built an AC on G1.  A factory on G2.  On G3 you have nothing to fight back against the Russians with.  On G4 you have no fleet due to RAF/R.Navy, Army Air Corps/US Navy and now you have to protect Germany, Western and Southern from invasions, thus limiting your ability to jostle back and force from Western to Eastern and back building up a large stack of men to feed into the furnace on a push to Moscow.

In other words, I think the IC gives you nothing back and ties you down too much.  You cannot allow America or England to take and hold it for a turn, which means you have to defend it or committ to retaking it after every landing.

[Guest]

If America goes KJF in this situation, then a Candian Shield variant opens up for Germany.

And it si real darn tough to build ships to send after Japan as the US when you have German INF, ART, and ARM pounding at Washington.

[ajgundam5]

I definently think it is possible because you only need to match Russia and they can’t break your line and if US is going after Japan then UK will definently have to save up for about 3 turns to build an effective navy which gives Germany some more time to build up assuming 1/3 income goes to Navy so I think it would be a realy fun game!

[OLver]

@ncscswitch:

Only Playtesting will ever tell  :-o

I’ve had that idea a year ago and played it twice. It was pretty funny, but I was too inexperimented to fully explore the possibilities as Germany.

[ajgundam5]

I tried doing a German Navy strat by playing all 5 powers on TripleA and the dice always seem to be bad for me on there but basically what happened was pretty early on America could out produce Germany in Navy and was ready to take the Kriegsmarine out pretty quick

[Guest]

It comes down to the other element of the strat…

Germany ahs to ALSO get forces into Africa.  They ahve to take those IPCs from UK as quickly as possible, while also forcing UK to biuld expensive naval units.  IPC losses early will cripple UK’s navy, and the Kreigsmarine/Luftwaffe take out the navy, the remnants reinfroce to hold the Americans back another round or 2, and UK is left with needing to build both TRNs and land units with an income under 20.  THAT takes a while.

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

If America goes KJF in this situation, then a Candian Shield variant opens up for Germany.

And it si real darn tough to build ships to send after Japan as the US when you have German INF, ART, and ARM pounding at Washington.

I think I didn’t explain myself well.  I meant that just as the American Pac Strat cannot be proven until a game that no one suspects it happening occurs, likewise you cannot test this one until the same circumstances occur.

I wasn’t saying that America should do a Pac Strat if Germany builds an IC in France.  Actually, Brition should make all effort to get that IC and let America reinforce them heavily with fighters, armor and infantry to prevent a recapture and then use that IC to build massive forces to attack Germany forcing them to either sacrifice more men and equipment holding it, or retaking it, then they would normally need to do when offering to trade the land.

Here’s what I see happening:

G1 Aircraft Carrier, move BB to SZ 13
UK1: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighters, 1 bomber attack SZ 13 (most probably case BB gets to hits and is sunk), BB returns to England
USA1: 2 DD, 4 TRN in SZ 10 (2 tran purchased)

G2: SZ 5 fleet moves to SZ 7 or 6, build IC in W. Europe
UK2: BB, 2 TRN, 3 FIG, 1 BMB attack Germany Fleet, worst most likely case England left with a damanged Battleship, German fleet sunk
USA2: Move to Sea Zone 8, unload in England 4 full transports, build 1 transport, and move BB/Trn from Panema up to E. USA

The only way to stop that is to invade Gibraltar in which case England cannot legally bring her fighters to SZ 13 (since there’s no where for them to land).  1 BB, 1 TRN vs 1 BMB is a loosing proposition for the bomber.

If you do that, you might have a chance of a unification in SZ 7, but you’re still going to get slammed by 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports on UK 2 which is a 58% chance of reducing you to a damaged Battleship.  Add a second strike by America with a fighter and a bomber and you loose that battleship before you can build more fleet.

As I mentioned, I really, REALLY don’t see you pulling this off.  Sure, if you can manage to decieve the allies and get your fleet unified in SZ 7 with an IC in W. Europe you can start putting a sub +/- a transport or a destroyer in the water every so often to annoy them.  Maybe even a second carrier and 2 more fighters.  But don’t try it against me, your fleet will be rusting before you even get the paint dry.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Here’s what I see happening:

G1 Aircraft Carrier, move BB to SZ 13
UK1: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighters, 1 bomber attack SZ 13 (most probably case BB gets to hits and is sunk), BB returns to England
USA1: 2 DD, 4 TRN in SZ 10 (2 tran purchased)

G2: SZ 5 fleet moves to SZ 7 or 6, build IC in W. Europe
UK2: BB, 2 TRN, 3 FIG, 1 BMB attack Germany Fleet, worst most likely case England left with a damanged Battleship, German fleet sunk
USA2: Move to Sea Zone 8, unload in England 4 full transports, build 1 transport, and move BB/Trn from Panema up to E. USA

If you do that, you might have a chance of a unification in SZ 7, but you’re still going to get slammed by 5 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports on UK 2 which is a 58% chance of reducing you to a damaged Battleship.  Add a second strike by America with a fighter and a bomber and you loose that battleship before you can build more fleet.

As I mentioned, I really, REALLY don’t see you pulling this off.  Sure, if you can manage to decieve the allies and get your fleet unified in SZ 7 with an IC in W. Europe you can start putting a sub +/- a transport or a destroyer in the water every so often to annoy them.  Maybe even a second carrier and 2 more fighters.  But don’t try it against me, your fleet will be rusting before you even get the paint dry.

Yeah, if it was pulled off like that,.  But -

1.  I think it was actually a G1 IC allowing immediate reinforcement of the W. Europe fleet on G2.  As far as I could tell, that was the whole point of a W. Europe IC.

2.  It isn’t UK bomber 2 fighters vs lone battleship.  Every time, it should be German sub from Atlantic, German battleship and transport from Med at Gibraltar.  Germany attacks with a few fighters, and kills the UK battleship with no losses in most cases.  But notice that a German bid is essential because you can’t really leave Anglo-Egypt alone without paying a heavy price.  So this pretty much ASSUMES a German African bid that lets Germany hit; should be at least 2 units placed to hit Anglo G1.  So you have 3 inf 1 tank 1-2 fig 1 bom vs Anglo, you take Gibraltar with probably no losses, and ignore the UK destroyer, so it’s battleship, transport, sub against UK destroyer and bomber.

Everything else depends on those initial assumptions.  Change them, and you change the analysis.

[Guest]

You are correct, it IS a G1 IC purchase.

[billius]

adding a factory for germany is a must!where to put that factory depends on how you play.if you want to pressure the USA and UK deploy in west Europe. if you want to reinforce the USSR deploy near the front.if you want to link up with japan deploy in Egypt or India. most of the time your own attacks will show were to deploy. :wink:

[ajgundam5]

@billius:

adding a factory for germany is a must!where to put that factory depends on how you play.if you want to pressure the USA and UK deploy in west Europe. if you want to reinforce the USSR deploy near the front.if you want to link up with japan deploy in Egypt or India. most of the time your own attacks will show were to deploy. :wink:

i would like to see one of your games

[Jennifer]

Oh m’goodness, it’s worse then I thought!

Now you’re spending 31 IPCs out of 40 on your fleet on G1???

16 for the carrier, 15 for the IC.

And, let’s pretend you did BB/SS + 3 fighters (you said a few, so that’s usually representative of 3).  Remember, Switch wants his transport to go to Egypt, so that isn’t present.

1 BB, 1 SS vs 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber:

10 vs 4  (2 Hits R1, 1 Def Hit R1)
7 vs 4 (1 Hit on R2, 1 Def Hit R2)

Germany SZ 13 fleet sunk, 1 bomber lands in England.  3 New Fighters added to pool.

UK2:

you have 3 fighters, 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 2 transports a russian submarine and an American destroyer and 2 transports at least confronting the AC, TRN, SS, SS, DD, 2 FIG that is moving out of SZ 5 this round (out of attack range of the Allied fleet.)

I see this as a death to the northern fleet still.  And a free IC for the allies on R3 or R4 of game play.

[newpaintbrush]

But you’re assuming the Germans won’t buy EVEN MORE navy at W. Europe, which is, IMHO, the point of the Western IC.

Gets awful expensive for Germany, though.  Still, constant reinforcement from W. Europe, the usual Allied air raid doesn’t work anymore.  (Usually if the German fleet stays at W. Europe, it can’t stay there because the Allied fleet is building up.  But the German fleet also can’t be reinforced because any new Baltic navy can be hit by US and UK fighters from London.  So the W. Europe fleet has to retreat to the Baltic or Mediterranean to add to their fleet.)

–

In a Russian fighters at Moscow game, 2 Baltic transports cost 1 IPC more, make the Mediterranean fleet more difficult to attack from air, and move 4 units into Ukraine from S. Europe each turn.  In a Russian fighters at Caucasus game, MAYBE a German IC at Ukraine

[Jennifer]

But any purchase of navy with Germany, short of another AC to land 2 more fighters on, is just money being sent to the bottom of the ocean.

Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.

[ajgundam5]

@Jennifer:

But any purchase of navy with Germany, short of another AC to land 2 more fighters on, is just money being sent to the bottom of the ocean.

Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.

I agree and America in my opinion can kill the navy vrey early assuming Germany attacks UKs navy which i thought was the main point in the first place

[newpaintbrush]

“I agree and America in my opinion can kill the navy vrey early assuming Germany attacks UKs navy which i thought was the main point in the first place”

I completely disagree with that assumption.  I am almost certain that it is designed as a defensive move against a KGF.

To go KGF or to reinforce USSR, the Allies have to deal with the German fleet.

If they try to avoid the German fleet by going north or south, Germany can move to cut the Allied fleet off.  The German fleet will constantly be reinforced while the Allied fleet is split.

If the German fleet is attacked, the attack will be expensive because it is a DEFENSIVE German fleet, and if you fail, fodder subs hit the water.

“Great, so you have 1 DD, 2 AC, 4 Fig, 1 Trn, 2 SS.  Yay!  Meanwhile, Russia has all of eastern europe and is directly threatening both Germany and Southern Europe because you have nothing to send after them to stop them.”

It’s 2 Trn 2 SS 1 DD 2 AC 4 Fig 1 Btl with unification with the Med fleet.  It is only 1 Trn 1 SS 1 DD 2 AC 4 Fig if most or all of the Allied fleet was killed on G2.  Either way, Germany has a strong defensive navy.

Germany doesn’t have much, it’s true.  But W. Europe no longer needs a stack of defensive troops because the German navy is doing the work of defending W. Eur.  German fighters can still hit Karelia.  Japan should grow in strength.

–

Although I disagree with some of the assessments I’ve read of how the scenario will play out, I still think that USSR will expand early and take IPCs, and that the Allies will kill the German navy and use mass fighters to attack ground territories after the W. Europe fleet is killed, resulting in an Allied win.  Still worth a few playthroughs to see if Japan can possibly crack Moscow before Germany collapses.

[Jennifer]

@newpaintbrush:

Yeah, if it was pulled off like that,.  But -

1.  I think it was actually a G1 IC allowing immediate reinforcement of the W. Europe fleet on G2.  As far as I could tell, that was the whole point of a W. Europe IC.

2.  It isn’t UK bomber 2 fighters vs lone battleship.  Every time, it should be German sub from Atlantic, German battleship and transport from Med at Gibraltar.  Germany attacks with a few fighters, and kills the UK battleship with no losses in most cases.  But notice that a German bid is essential because you can’t really leave Anglo-Egypt alone without paying a heavy price.  So this pretty much ASSUMES a German African bid that lets Germany hit; should be at least 2 units placed to hit Anglo G1.  So you have 3 inf 1 tank 1-2 fig 1 bom vs Anglo, you take Gibraltar with probably no losses, and ignore the UK destroyer, so it’s battleship, transport, sub against UK destroyer and bomber.

Everything else depends on those initial assumptions.  Change them, and you change the analysis.

Well, I was replying directly to Switch’s plan of using the Transport for Egypt and I assumed the defending battleship got at least one hit.  Forgot the German one could sustain a hit before sinking.  So we’re situated closer to 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber vs 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship.

Even if you bring the transport in, unless you take Gibraltar, there’s a good chance you’ll loose the submarine, transport and battleship (assuming you don’t submerge the submarine) and England will be down a few fighters.  Net IPC gain to the Germans, but it still leaves your fleet pretty vulnerable to combined Allied attacks.  (After all, but US 2 you should still be worrying about a follow up to Englands attack on your fleet by 1 destroyer, 2 transports, 1 fighter, 1 bomber.  More then enough to sink whatever you have left, assuming you didn’t purchase a second carrier.)

Anyway, PaintBrush, you keep assuming the German fleet will unify.  I don’t see that happening.  I don’t think that med fleet has a chance at all of making it to the med fleet, with the possible exception of forgoing extra forces to Egypt and possibly loosing Egypt, thereby allowing the British fleet to move into the Med to chase you and make a joint US/UK/UK/Russian Sub fleet and that’s just a nightmare Germany doesn’t want to deal with.

And may all the gods in the heavens have mercy upon your soul if you do not take Gibraltar and fail to sink my destroyer in SZ 15 cause I’m not having mercy on anyone…my dice are so bad that I can loose 87% succuss odds on a routine basis, you don’t deserve mercy!

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Well, I was replying directly to Switch’s plan of using the Transport for Egypt and I assumed the defending battleship got at least one hit.  Forgot the German one could sustain a hit before sinking.  So we’re situated closer to 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber vs 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship.

Anyway, PaintBrush, you keep assuming the German fleet will unify.  I don’t see that happening.  I don’t think that med fleet has a chance at all of making it to the med fleet, with the possible exception of forgoing extra forces to Egypt and possibly loosing Egypt, thereby allowing the British fleet to move into the Med to chase you and make a joint US/UK/UK/Russian Sub fleet and that’s just a nightmare Germany doesn’t want to deal with.

OH YEAH, ok ok my bad.  I just like to jack threads you know.  Okay, lemme clarify my position on this whole AC/IC thing.

1.  I think the AC/IC fails.  Whether it fails before Japan smashes Moscow, I don’t know.  I think so, but I’m not positively sure.

2.  I am going to categorically state that the Germans cannot afford to send the Med transport to Anglo-Egypt.  It must be 1 sub 1 transport 1 btl plus 1+ air to Gibraltar, to TAKE Gibraltar and prevent the UK counter of 1 destroyer 2 fighter 1 bomber.

3.  Because the Germans cannot afford to send the Med transport to Anglo-Egypt, you MUST have a German bid in Africa, because frankly, you just can’t afford NOT to kill the UK units in Anglo-Egypt.  I could even go as far as to say you can’t afford not to TAKE Anglo-Egypt to prevent the UK India fleet from coming through to apply pressure.  (But you MIGHT be able to deal with an early UK Med fleet if you unified off W. Europe G2; you could use that fleet to smash the UK fleet on G3.  Maybe.)

4.  The Allies can stop the German Med and Baltic fleets from uniting on G2 by putting stuff in the sea zone west of Algeria.  But if it’s light, fighters clear it and the German fleets unite during noncombat.  If it’s medium, German uses transport and/or sub fodder and fighters.  If it’s heavy, Germany just sacrifices as much of the fleet as necessary.  Either way, the Allies pay a heavy price.

[Guest]

Youknow, i forgot that DST in the Eastern Med.

TRN can;t go to Egypt (without a very risky battle that will cost Germany FIGs)

So the TRN goes west too.

as I said, this is just a concept, and not fleshed out AT ALL.

One of those crazy ideas that just MIGHT be viable in terms of scareing the snot out of an opponent… “What?  Germany is not allowed to have navy!  And certainly not THERE!  And that IC!  And he is building MORE navy!  Oh Shite!  I am screwed, i am screwed, I am screwed… OK, suicide my fleet… how much INF can I buy as UK?  Hurry up America, I need defenses!  Forget Africa!  Hurry up Russia, push faster, even if it leaves you thin in Eastern, I need HHHHEEEELLLLLPPPP!”

You know, somethign to inspire THAT kind of thinking in your opponent  :mrgreen:

[Jennifer]

Ah, it woulda been legit though.  Cause 1 Fighter, 1 Transport vs 1 Destroyer is almost a guarenteed win.  IMHO.

Though yea, I usually just put two infantry in Libya on my bid then take Gibraltar with 1 infantry to stop any counter attack by England.  Whatcha gunna do, hit me with a destroyer and a bomber?  Sheesh!  Okay, I loose a transport, you loose a destroyer and a bomber. :P