• Moderator

    Now that some more facts and stories are coming out, I 'd like to post this from the Washington Times. (see below)

    I bolded the stuff in the story relative to the timeline.

    Aug 27 - Bush asks Gov to issue evacuation order (2 days prior to storm)
    Aug 28 - Gov fianlly issues evacuation order (1 day later)
    Aug 29 - Hurricane Katrina hits
    Aug 31 - Gov has still failed to ask for Federal troops
    Sept 2 - Bush again offers to take Federal control of the situation
    The Gov says she needs 24 hrs to think it over, and ultimately REJECTS the offer.
    Sept 6-7 - Gov and Mayor are still not enforcing mandatory evacuation and are fueding a bit.

    Say what you want about Bush, but he was engaged and did offer Federal help both before and immediately after the storm. Maybe he should have been more forceful, but I really do think the local leadership (both Gov and Mayor) was extremely poor, bordering on incompetent to say the least.

    It should also be noted that both the Gov and Mayor are Dems, yet the Mayor endorced a Rep who ran against the Gov. That may explain some of the friction between those two.

    Also note the Gov regrets about not asking for troops earlier, but again rejects the Presidents offer on Sept 2.

    _The latest in a long line of disputes among local, state and federal officials over Hurricane Katrina was defused yesterday when New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin called off reopening the city, although he cited another storm for his capitulation rather than federal officials’ litany of concerns.
    The various levels of government have disagreed over when to call in federal troops and whether the entire operation should be federalized. They also have clashed over when and how to evacuate New Orleans and when to let residents return.
    “We share the goal of the mayor, but we have got concerns,” Mr. Bush said early yesterday, when Mr. Nagin still was allowing residents to return.
    “The mayor has got this dream about having a city up and running – and we share that dream,” Mr. Bush said. “But we also want to be realistic about some of the hurdles and obstacles that we all confront in repopulating New Orleans.”
    The obstacles include the possibility of additional flooding from Tropical Storm Rita, which was heading toward the Gulf of Mexico yesterday, and the lack of electricity, drinking water and sewage facilities. Early yesterday, Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen said it might be as much as a week before residents could return safely.
    “We just think that conditions need to be set so when people come back in, they can operate safely, and, moreover, with the weakened levee system, that there’s a plan to evacuate whatever number of people are allowed back in the city,” he told CNN.
    “When those conditions are met and the risk has been reduced, then the population comes in,” he added. “That could be two days, five days, one week.”
    Mr. Nagin initially criticized the remarks and insisted that up to 180,000 people – about a third of the city’s population – be allowed to return during the next 10 days.
    “I’m a little surprised the admiral came out publicly on this,” Mr. Nagin told Fox News Channel in the morning. “Maybe since I’ve been away a day or two, maybe he’s the new crowned federal mayor of New Orleans.”
    Mr. Nagin, who spent the weekend in Dallas, said: “If he’s suggesting I’m pushing a little hard, I am. The citizens of New Orleans deserve the opportunity to see what they have left and what they can salvage.”
    Later in the day, however, Mr. Nagin began reassessing the timing of his plan because of Tropical Storm Rita and other “external factors,” said Nagin spokeswoman Sally Foreman.
    By the end of the day, the mayor reversed himself, agreeing with Mr. Bush and Adm. Allen that it was too soon and too unsafe for residents to return.

    The rift yesterday was the latest in a series of high-profile disagreements among federal, state and local officials about how to handle the hurricane and the subsequent flooding of New Orleans.
    The discord began Aug. 27, when Mr. Bush asked Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order an evacuation of New Orleans. Mrs. Blanco did not issue the order until Aug. 28, a day before Hurricane Katrina made landfall.
    Mrs. Blanco also neglected to ask the president for federal troops when she wrote him a letter on Aug. 27 and when she spoke with him on Aug. 29. She had not made the request even on Aug. 31, when she gave a series of television interviews in Baton Rouge.
    “I really need to call for the military,” she told her press secretary between interviews. “And I should have started that in the first call.”
    Later that day, she asked the White House for troops, which were dispatched to assist Louisiana National Guard forces.
    Mrs. Blanco hesitated again when she met Sept. 2 with Mr. Bush, who offered to have the federal government take over the chaotic evacuation. Mrs. Blanco said she needed 24 hours to make a decision and ultimately rejected the federal offer.

    Mr. Nagin later told CNN that Mrs. Blanco and Mr. Bush needed to “get in sync.” But within days, Mr. Nagin and Mrs. Blanco were feuding with each other over whether New Orleans residents should be ordered to leave their homes.
    “My mandatory evacuation is still in effect,” Mr. Nagin said Sept. 6.
    But Mrs. Blanco refused to enforce the order, saying she needed more time for scientists to test the toxicity of floodwaters, even though health officials were warning that the waters were very dangerous.
    “The mayor certainly has ordered that, but the governor – and that would be me – will have to enforce it or implement it,” Mrs. Blanco said Sept. 7.

    Mr. Bush will make more trips to the storm-hit areas this week, meeting today with Mississippi business owners and civic leaders in Gulfport and visiting a recovering business in New Orleans.
    On Friday and Saturday, he will travel to Alabama, Texas and Arkansas, which have absorbed thousands of refugees from the harder-hit neighboring states.
    “The trip will be an opportunity for the president to personally thank some cities and states that have taken in large numbers of our fellow citizens affected by Katrina,” White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters._

    Link:

    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050920-121223-4210r.htm


  • Yeah, she’s gonna be a one-termer. HOwever, the Guard was mobilized before the hurricane hit. Had thousands of guardsmen been here instead of over in Iraq, maybe federal troops wouldn’t have been needed. I posted a reply to Baker quoting a Guard Lt. General stating the loss of troops to Iraq probably made the aid effort take a day longer. And why the hell was “Bronwnie” running FEMA anywhere? Was there no one more qualified than a former overseer of a horse-breeding facility? Bang up job, Bush! And the Congress that approved him.

    Oh, and this is Bush we’re talking about. This guy needs to ask permission before deploying troops? Did he ask the people of Iraq if they wanted to be invaded or did he just sort of assume they did? Why couldn’t Bush just assume the dying people in Orleans wanted help? Who’s gonna impeach him? Republican controlled Congress? LOL. Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.


  • at the risk of agreeing with you (again) Mary . . .

    I will never understand how a governor general was able to thwart the goals of Bush to save the people of LA, and yet the Iraqi army could not thwart the plans of Bush to kill many thousands of Iraqis.

    Also - i think i would have made a good director of FEMA.
    i mean
    “common people” - i’ve got an M.Sc., an MD, and i’ve been a territory manager for a major pharma company. If that doesn’t translate into FEMA-cred, then i guess . . . is POTUS open?

  • Moderator

    Oh, and this is Bush we’re talking about. This guy needs to ask permission before deploying troops?

    Yes!

    Did he ask the people of Iraq if they wanted to be invaded or did he just sort of assume they did?

    You have to be very careful about that statement.
    Several Iraqi groups DID want us to invade and remove Saddam. Infact, much of our intelligence came from Iraqi defectors. Whether the information was sound or not is now irrelevent according to you, since there were Iraqi people that wanted help, we did the right thing.
    I’m sure the Kurds and Shiites are glad we invaded. They will benefit the most.

    Why couldn’t Bush just assume the dying people in Orleans wanted help? Who’s gonna impeach him? Republican controlled Congress?

    So you are for ignoring the Law. Gotcha.
    They why do you care about Iraq, thinking it is illegal etc.
    You support breaking the law as you see fit. You should be praising Bush then. He rode in with the cavalry.

    You argue in circles, this is why the Dems have trouble. You have no core positions. Simply because it is Bush you are against it.

    Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.

    OR…he would have looked like a egotistical man flaunting his power and taking over for a weak little woman who is too powerless and inept to run her own State. Poor helpless Women. I guess the feminist movement hasn’t come far enough. I suppose you’re right, women shouldn’t really be governors anyway, that should be at home…

    I don’t agree with that, but that is essentailly what your are saying.

    Do you really think a Strong woman (like Hillary for example), woulde EVER be caught looking weak like that? They why would you expect the LA Gov to reliquish her power?

    (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!).

    YES YES YES!!!

    Great Mary just endorsed the Invasion of Iraq, Iran, NK, Syria, etc.

    To Hell with the UN and all the security Council Red tape! We have starving people to help in China and NK! Lets invade!


  • I have no problem with presidents exceeding their authority… WHEN IT’S FOR A GREATER GOOD. Lincoln went above and beyond to preserve the union (good). Bush lied repeatedly to invade Iraq (bad), and has suspended Habeus Corpus for “enemy combatants” for the last four years (very bad). Maybe you like the idea of people being held for years without being charged with a crime. The rest of us feel we’re in some kind of Orwellian nightmare- a neverending war we can’t win, and a constant erosian of our civil rights (Gitmo and Patriot Act). Instead of periodic rocket attacks, we have periodic “threat level” elevations.

    Oh, and I like your logic: if we can help a group of people, we should invade a country? What exactly is this magic percentage? If 10% want us there? 20%? 30%? I like my position: we probably shouldn’t invade other countries unless they’ve attacked us. You see, what happens is, sometimes intelligence gets screwed up (falsified), insurgencies get underestimated, and we end up in a giant shit-hole with hundreds of billions spent, our reputation shot, 1900+ soldiers dead, thousands more wounded, and nothing to show for it. Christ, you would think infant mortality would have improved since we invaded but even that’s gotten worse!

    But really, there are two reasons to despise Bush for what happened: He picked Brown to run FEMA, and he stripped the Guard of their ability to effectively mobilize. I notice you didn’t talk much about either of those points because they are irrefutable- Brown was a fuck-up, and the Guard was called up even before Katrina hit.

  • Moderator

    I have no problem with presidents exceeding their authority… WHEN IT’S FOR A GREATER GOOD.

    Yikes!

    I have a REAL big problem with that.

    Who determines “the greater good”?

    That only justifies Bush’s actions more. In the best interest of the US we are going to go around locking people with with no trial then execute them.

    Hey, it’s for the greater good.

    You, me and most other citizens would be against this - which you even stated, yet you’re willing to allow a Pres to do this power for a so called “greater good”.

    For the good of the country we should just execute the poor, that would certainly end the poverty problem. We should also get rid of the handicapped as well…for the greater good of course.

    “The Greater Good”, that is an awfully powerful statement and extremely subjective.

    Oh, and I like your logic: if we can help a group of people, we should invade a country? What exactly is this magic percentage? If 10% want us there? 20%? 30%?

    I like may logic too. :D
    But that is what you were saying we should do in NO. Forget that about 70-80% of the people left NO. Lets only focus on the people taht couldn’t get out or that ignored the mandatory evacuation order and critsize Bush for not helping 10, 20, 30% or whatever it was.

    What is the magical % for the Pres to usurp the Gov Authority, to save 5%, 10%, 20%…?

    But really, there are two reasons to despise Bush for what happened: He picked Brown to run FEMA, and he stripped the Guard of their ability to effectively mobilize. I notice you didn’t talk much about either of those points because they are irrefutable- Brown was a f**k-up, and the Guard was called up even before Katrina hit.

    I didn’t think there was anything worth refuting. But now that you mention it, I think I will, or better yet I’ll let you refute yourself:

    And the Congress that approved him.

    If he was clearly a really a poor choice how did he get approved?
    And for #2
    Why did the Gov not deploy the NG they? Why did she waiver so much?
    Incompetence.
    [Warning: Joke coming]
    Obviously she needs a strong man to tell her what to do. :D


  • @Mary:

    Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.

    Not to the Dems.

    DM hit it on the nose w/the Dems opposing Bush unless he takes action in accord to their radical leftist ideologies.

    Going in full bore w/ fed and military aide against Gov Blanco’s wishes will allow the Dems to paint GWB as an imperialist. They would say that he will just use his Commander in Chief position to steamroll any state or municipal govmt.


  • @Linkon:

    @Mary:

    Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.

    Not to the Dems.

    DM hit it on the nose w/the Dems opposing Bush unless he takes action in accord to their radical leftist ideologies.

    Going in full bore w/ fed and military aide against Gov Blanco’s wishes will allow the Dems to paint GWB as an imperialist. They would say that he will just use his Commander in Chief position to steamroll any state or municipal govmt.

    ahhh
    so you believe it is appropriate to steamroll a sovereign nation killing thousands of its citizens, but it is not appropriate for him to send help in to save hundreds of his own . . . .
    Why is it that the “Dems” mindset seems like common sense?


  • @Linkon:

    @Mary:

    Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.

    Not to the Dems.

    DM hit it on the nose w/the Dems opposing Bush unless he takes action in accord to their radical leftist ideologies.

    Going in full bore w/ fed and military aide against Gov Blanco’s wishes will allow the Dems to paint GWB as an imperialist. They would say that he will just use his Commander in Chief position to steamroll any state or municipal govmt.

    The Dems are going to complain that Bush took the initiative and saved countless lives? LOL, they could kiss Congress and the White House goodbye. And what the hell does all this mean anyway? Bush isn’t running again. What does he care what Democrats say? Sometimes, I wonder about you Linkon.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    I have no problem with presidents exceeding their authority… WHEN IT’S FOR A GREATER GOOD.

    @DarthMaximus:

    Yikes!

    I have a REAL big problem with that.

    Yes, because Bush is a moron. I’m scared too. Brrr!

    @DarthMaximus:

    Who determines “the greater good”?

    Sometimes, it’s just obvious. Like ending slavery or preserving the union. The only times a president should exceed his authority (ala Lincoln), is when the country is on the verge of disintigration. The “threat” from Iraq doesn’t qualify.

    @DarthMaximus:

    That only justifies Bush’s actions more. In the best interest of the US we are going to go around locking people with with no trial then execute them. Hey, it’s for the greater good.

    You, me and most other citizens would be against this - which you even stated, yet you’re willing to allow a Pres to do this power for a so called “greater good”.

    I didn’t know that many words could fit in my mouth. How many times have I referenced Lincoln? Did Lincoln execute people without trial? Is your agrument devoid of any reason? Readers can decide.

    @DarthMaximus:

    “The Greater Good”, that is an awfully powerful statement and extremely subjective. [\quote]

    Yes, only to be relied upon when someone with an IQ +100 is in office. Were you in favor of Truman dropping the bomb on Japan? Of course you were. Hmm, wonder if “greater good” applies there ;)

    @DarthMaximus:

    I like may logic too. :D
    But that is what you were saying we should do in NO. Forget that about 70-80% of the people left NO. Lets only focus on the people taht couldn’t get out or that ignored the mandatory evacuation order and critsize Bush for not helping 10, 20, 30% or whatever it was.

    What is the magical % for the Pres to usurp the Gov Authority, to save 5%, 10%, 20%…?

    Let’s see… when Americans are dying for lack of food/water/medicine, perhaps the govt. should get involved? Call me crazy.

    @DarthMaximus:

    I didn’t think there was anything worth refuting. But now that you mention it, I think I will, or better yet I’ll let you refute yourself:

    And the Congress that approved him.

    If he was clearly a really a poor choice how did he get approved?
    And for #2
    Why did the Gov not deploy the NG they? Why did she waiver so much?
    Incompetence.
    [Warning: Joke coming]
    Obviously she needs a strong man to tell her what to do. :D

    Bush is Republican. Congress is Republican. Duh. And does that somehow excuse Bush for picking a moron to run FEMA? But go ahead, blame Congress too. Bunch of Republican bastards anyway.

    Oh, and the Gov had the National Guard in the SuperDome before the refugees began arriving. http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7870

    Maybe if thousands of them (and their equipment) hadn’t been in Iraq the situation would have been controllable

  • Moderator

    Sometimes, it’s just obvious. Like ending slavery or preserving the union. The only times a president should exceed his authority (ala Lincoln), is when the country is on the verge of disintigration. The “threat” from Iraq doesn’t qualify.

    Then this wouldn’t apply to NO as well. The country wasn’t on the verge of collapse. Thus no need for the Pres to usurp the Gov’s power.

    I didn’t know that many words could fit in my mouth. How many times have I referenced Lincoln? Did Lincoln execute people without trial? Is your agrument devoid of any reason? Readers can decide.

    You can’t throw around terms like “greater good” and expect to get away with it. While Lincoln was an Honorable man and did the right thing, Would you trust every Pres to do the right thing? Just because Lincoln did? I certainly wouldn’t. And I know you wouldn’t based on what you’ve said about Bush.
    No Pres served more than two terms until FDR broke the 150 yr tradition.
    Why would you assume that since Lincoln really knew what the “great good” was that some Pres 150-200 yrs later would?

    Yes, only to be relied upon when someone with an IQ +100 is in office. Were you in favor of Truman dropping the bomb on Japan? Of course you were. Hmm, wonder if “greater good” applies there

    You can pick out examples all you want, I got the Lincoln reference. My only point is that “greater good” is subjective.
    Do those in Hiroshima and Nagasaki think the bombing was for the greater good?

    I believe the Iraq action is in the greater good, you do not. This is the problem with throwing around those terms. It is a matter of opinion.

    Sometimes it is obvious, but sometimes I guess it isn’t. To me it is obvious that removing Saddam from power was good, to you it is not.

    The “threat” from Iraq doesn’t qualify.

    That is your opinion.

    To me, it isn’t unrealistic to see the way NK and Iran are acting and to see Saddam acting the same way if he were still there. They agree to inspections then they don’t.
    Heck, yesterday NK agreed to a deal, and today they are already trash talking again and going back on the deal.
    Something must be done about this.
    I can’t believe you’d think we’d be better off with Saddam entering in that little race.
    It was bad enough with India and Pakistan in a nuke race, now imagine Iran and Saddam’s Iraq in a nuke race.

    Because of our actions in Afgahn and Iraq, Libya has given up its program, elections in Palastine, Syria has pulled out of Lebenon, Israel has moved out of Gaza, not to mention the elections in Iraq and Afgahn themselves, etc.

    Oh, and the Gov had the National Guard in the SuperDome before the refugees began arriving

    Then what the heck does she need the Feds for, she obviously had everything under control. :roll:

    Maybe if thousands of them (and their equipment) hadn’t been in Iraq the situation would have been controllable

    Maybe if the Democratic Leadership in LA wasn’t so incompetent they actually would have evacuated the populace.

    (see Hurricane Rita preperation)

    The Dems can mobilize buses to get people to vote, but apparently they can’t mobilise people to get out of dodge.

    I think what gets the Dems so mad is that NO was such a bastion of Liberalism, that this hurricane stripped away all the walls and showed the world what an utter failure Liberalism is. NO has been run by Dems for 60 years, yet it many of its people were poor and left behind by the very Democrats that they elected into office.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    Several Iraqi groups DID want us to invade and remove Saddam.

    You notice how funny the other side of that sword is?
    What if one these “liberal - commie - whatever” groups claims it would be good to have GWB removed … ?

    @DarthMaximus:

    No Pres served more than two terms until FDR broke the 150 yr tradition.

    First, it was only a tradition. A tradition has not the power of a law (in my legal system, i know yours is different, giving traditions more power, yet still less than laws i would presume).
    Second, breaking traditions is not always “bad”.
    Third, breaking a tradition in extra-ordinary times is more justified than to break it for the fun of it.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    Sometimes it is obvious, but sometimes I guess it isn’t. To me it is obvious that removing Saddam from power was good, to you it is not.

    “Common” DM - this is kind of an ignorant statement.

    I mean - i prolly could reasonably argue that removing SH from power was not good, but no one has stated this.
    Our argument was that the good of removing SH no where equals the bad from the invasion and mass slayings of Iraqi civilians, soldiers and US soldiers, trampling on Iraqi rights, and blowing up much of its infrastructure (never mind the $200 B cost of the war which if applied to social programs in the US would have IMO made the US an even greater nation).

  • Moderator

    You notice how funny the other side of that sword is?
    What if one these “liberal - commie - whatever” groups claims it would be good to have GWB removed … ?

    Yes, true.
    Which is why, the Pres can’t simply tell Govenors what to do. There are laws, which Bush followed for the Katrina response.
    You (I don’t mean you personally) must seperate Iraq from Katrina response. You simply can’t say “hey bush invaded Iraq, now do the same in NO”.
    I believe he was justified in Iraq, now even if it wasn’t (in other opinions) that is not a valid reason to say what about NO. Maybe he learned his lesson, “hey you can’t go around flaunting laws, looked how pissed people got about Iraq. I better follow this Katrina thing by the letter of the Law”.

    First, it was only a tradition. A tradition has not the power of a law (in my legal system, i know yours is different, giving traditions more power, yet still less than laws i would presume).
    Second, breaking traditions is not always “bad”.
    Third, breaking a tradition in extra-ordinary times is more justified than to break it for the fun of it.

    Again, true. But I was just trying to point out, not all Pres will see things the same way. Some people like what FDR did, others did not.

    After 9/11 you can that was extra ordinary, BUT people still get mad about the Patriot Act.

    I’m only trying to point out it you have to very careful about letting the Pres (or any leader) get away with saying we must do this because of these extreme circumstances.

    While it may have been a good Idea for Bush to take power of LA to help out Katrina. What about now with Rita (another Cat 5 Hurricane). Now Bush takes control of Texas as well??? Both Katrina and Rita hit FL, should Bush have taken power from his brother???

    You must see how this could develop into a slippery slope. Every Hurricane season the Pres could send “aid” (read troops) to the effected area, for the greater good of course. Yet what if they don’t want to leave??? What do they say about absolute power curropting absolutely.
    That is why Bush (and any Pres), must go through the red tape.

    That is why I’m against bigger gov’t, cut out the red tape and burearcracy give the state/local officials the ability to immediately react, etc…

    The anwser isn’t to just ignore the red tape and do what you want in “extreme circumstances”, but to fix the process and eliminate the red tape legally by streamlining the response.

    Again, look at the preperation for Rita. To mean it seems like it is working right now. Perhaps the bugs in the system where shown the light in Katrina and they are fixing them.

    “Common” DM - this is kind of an ignorant statement.

    I mean - i prolly could reasonably argue that removing SH from power was not good, but no one has stated this.
    Our argument was that the good of removing SH no where equals the bad from the invasion and mass slayings of Iraqi civilians, soldiers and US soldiers, trampling on Iraqi rights, and blowing up much of its infrastructure (never mind the $200 B cost of the war which if applied to social programs in the US would have IMO made the US an even greater nation).

    Fair enough.

    But I think it removing Saddam (don’t forget his sons as well) easily out weighs having left the status quo as is.

    I don’t agree with the Social Program spending either of course. :D

    I think you guys are judging things too quickly.

    The US first try at Democracy failed (Articles of Confederation), our Capital was burned to the ground in a later war, and we even had a Civil War, etc.

    You are judging the results before the process is done. IMO, that is like saying a football game is over in the 1st quarter.

    I think you’ll appreciate this CC, Say you have have a patient that has cancer. The answer, they need surgery.
    They don’t feel any pain but untreated they will die.
    So they have surgery. Now how do they feel a day or a week after surgery? They feel like crap. Now how about after 6 months to a year of radiation and Chemo? Still like crap.
    But hey after 2 years they are getting back to normal and are cured. They feel better, and can appreciate the hellish process they went through, since the final results were good.

    But again what would that patient have said if you asked them how they feel imediately after surgery, with IV’s plugged in, tubes up their nose, etc.?

    You have to let the process play out. Now if Iraq is the same as it is now in 5-10 years from now then you may have a case, but they just had their first elections and are voting on a Constitution in a month. Ya gotta give it a little more time before declaring that it wasn’t worth it, IMO.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    You notice how funny the other side of that sword is?
    What if one these “liberal - commie - whatever” groups claims it would be good to have GWB removed … ?

    Yes, true.
    Which is why, the Pres can’t simply tell Govenors what to do. There are laws, which Bush followed for the Katrina response.
    You (I don’t mean you personally) must seperate Iraq from Katrina response. You simply can’t say “hey bush invaded Iraq, now do the same in NO”.
    I believe he was justified in Iraq

    I think you missed my point.
    If a few USamerican groups say that GWB should be removed … is that a valid context for … say the chinese … to invade the US ?
    If it is not there, then it was not for SH and Iraq.

    After 9/11 you can that was extra ordinary, BUT people still get mad about the Patriot Act.

    Because there is a difference between “tradition” -expecially when it is on formalities- and “values a country is and society is based upon”. Patriot Act is a perversion of what it claims to defend. If you have abandon principles likehabeas corpus, what kind of system are you defending with such a law? …

    I’m only trying to point out it you have to very careful about letting the Pres (or any leader) get away with saying we must do this because of these extreme circumstances.

    Oh, i do agree with that sentence, but your examples were a bit counterproductive for that :)

    What about now with Rita (another Cat 5 Hurricane). Now Bush takes control of Texas as well??? Both Katrina and Rita hit FL, should Bush have taken power from his brother???

    No, but here the state of emergency was proclaimed in advance. … something that could have been done for Katrina as well.

    You must see how this could develop into a slippery slope. Every Hurricane season the Pres could send “aid” (read troops) to the effected area, for the greater good of course. Yet what if they don’t want to leave???

    You ask me ?
    A german ???
    We still have your troops :).
    So, it’s not that bad, as long as they behave and are able to keep their children well behaving as well (difficult if a child is raised very “patriotic” but not in its fatherland … i remember a few years where they dropped stones/rocks from autobahn-crossing-pedestrian-bridges onto the cars below them) … and they do leave money in the local economy (not too much, but a bit).

  • Moderator

    I think you missed my point.
    If a few USamerican groups say that GWB should be removed … is that a valid context for … say the chinese … to invade the US ?
    If it is not there, then it was not for SH and Iraq.

    Oh.

    Sure. But why would the Chinese not just wait for Bush’s term to be up?
    They’d get a new leader with no blood shed.

    That is a big difference. Worst case you live with a Pres for 8 years, Dictators are in for life. Since you can’t vote them out, sometimes that only leaves military action.

    China (or someother country) could very much listen to some far out people and declare Bush a war criminal and try to forcible remove him. BUT…are you willing to accept the US counter strike, or are you willing to bite your tongue and hope a more favorable leader gets elected?
    With the US you have over 200 years of Presidents leaving office and having elections. With Iraq that was simply not an option. And the failed attempt at removing Saddam after the First Gulf War was a sad reminder that Saddam would not share power or step down gracefully.

    No, but here the state of emergency was proclaimed in advance. … something that could have been done for Katrina as well.

    But it was declared before Katrina hit. I believe 2 days prior. This was done precisely to give the Gov “extra powers” in a time of emergency. The Gov failed to act as forcefully as she probably should have.

    In hindsight, yes the Pres should have pushed the issue more, but at the time the Govenor had all the authority and ability to do whatever the heck she wanted (due to the State of Emergency).

    We still have your troops

    Yes, well sometimes rebuilding can take 60 years. :D
    So judging Iraq on 2 years isn’t really fair. :D


  • You made some reasonable points earlier that i don’t think necessary to address here (i like the way you suggested that the president “learned” after Iraq to go by the letter of the law :D)
    @DarthMaximus:

    I think you’ll appreciate this CC, Say you have have a patient that has cancer. The answer, they need surgery.
    They don’t feel any pain but untreated they will die.
    So they have surgery. Now how do they feel a day or a week after surgery? They feel like crap. Now how about after 6 months to a year of radiation and Chemo? Still like crap.
    But hey after 2 years they are getting back to normal and are cured. They feel better, and can appreciate the hellish process they went through, since the final results were good.

    But again what would that patient have said if you asked them how they feel imediately after surgery, with IV’s plugged in, tubes up their nose, etc.?

    1. i am not a surgeon :D
    2. seriously tho’ let’s say you are describing patient Joe.
      Now i explain to Joe the nature of the “cancer”, the prognosis and treatment as well as the risks and benefits of the proceedure/treatment. Now let’s say that Joe says “i’ll go for radiation and chemo, but i don’t want you to open me up”. If i say “well, screw you” and knock him out, perform the surgery, extracting the tumor against his will - then what does that make me? In this country - guilty of assault-and-battery, and a non-doctor after my license gets taken away from me.
      The thing is that SH relented on every request of the UN/US except to step down.
      The fact is that some tumors regress without surgery, and many tumors recur with surgery. We could not have predicted what would have happened if SH remained in power, however i am fairly certain that it would have been a much more stable environment, and likely more docile.
  • Moderator

    i like the way you suggested that the president “learned” after Iraq to go by the letter of the law

    I liked that one too. :D

    We could not have predicted what would have happened if SH remained in power, however i am fairly certain that it would have been a much more stable environment, and likely more docile.

    I think he would’ve played similar games to what he did in the past and what NK and Iran are doing now. One day inspectors can come in the next day they can’t.


  • @DarthMaximus:

    We could not have predicted what would have happened if SH remained in power, however i am fairly certain that it would have been a much more stable environment, and likely more docile.

    I think he would’ve played similar games to what he did in the past and what NK and Iran are doing now. One day inspectors can come in the next day they can’t.

    I respectfully disagree.
    I remember the whole scenario quite vividly (sadly i must relate that i was feeling somewhat pro-Bush at the time until the day before invasion), and i saw a very desparate SH willing to do anything to keep from being invaded.

    Anyway, this is not the point of this thread, but rather that Iraq and NO are linked in many of our minds. Clearly the “Dems” believe that there was no mandate to send forces into Iraq to invade it, but they believe that there was a mandate to send whatever help was at its avail into NO to help.
    As a Canadian (and obviously i do not speak for the majority of my countrymen) i can not understand this bizaare interplay between federalism and what-ever-you-call-it. I suppose i am a bit of a federalist, mind you (not all of us are “this way” here - particularly many of the traitors living in Quebec). If the federal gov’t saw a need for troops in MB or ON or even PQ, then troops would be directly dispatched there, with co-ordinated efforts between that provinces forces and the fed’s forces. There would be no negotiations.


  • i can not understand this bizaare interplay between federalism and what-ever-you-call-it.

    Part of this interplay is that the United States was never intended, by design 200+ year ago, to be a single nation. Rather, 13 seperate nations which are independent, but still loosely joined together. For this reason, the constitution does restrict the federal government in many ways - the use of resources being one of the ways.

    After 200 years, it almost never appears that way to outsiders or citizens since the federal gevernment has found ways to impose its desire upon the states. The primary way it does this is through the money - the federal funding for many things such as roads, are tied to specific policies. The state legislatures then decide they want (or need) the money more than NOT having a matching policy. Additionally, the federal courts haven’t always respected states rights, using a very liberal (no politics are intended with the word “liberal” here) interpretation of the powers the constitution does give the federal government.

Suggested Topics

Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

38

Online

17.0k

Users

39.3k

Topics

1.7m

Posts