This pledge of allegiance thing…

[Mary]

@Rune:

I have no problem with children in schools being socialised to say the Pledge of Allegiance - I object vehemently to “under God” being included in the pledge

Why? This nation was founded by people who believed in God. Under God was instituted by Eisenhower to differentiate what our country stands for when we had the cold war with the aethiest Soviet Union. I think Under God works just fine. If this offends your sensitivities. Just don’t say it. Easy enough. Too bad some dummy always wants to get his 15 min. of fame by going to the courts. God help us all if we become a nation run by the courts. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Yea, it’s written into other European history books as kristollnacht as well as in the Russian texts.

Which countries apart from Russia ?

Changing it would have to be done by a general consensus of historians and even then might fail because everyone knows it by its German name, not its Jewish name.

Well, you now know both names. You can now decide which name to use: the name of the Nazis and murderers or the name Jews and victims.
You choice …
and the historians have made up their mind AFAIK, it is just that the inhabitants of some nations seem not to listen to what a majority of the rest of the world says.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

Yea, it’s written into other European history books as kristollnacht as well as in the Russian texts.

Which countries apart from Russia ?

Changing it would have to be done by a general consensus of historians and even then might fail because everyone knows it by its German name, not its Jewish name.

Well, you now know both names. You can now decide which name to use: the name of the Nazis and murderers or the name Jews and victims.
You choice …
and the historians have made up their mind AFAIK, it is just that the inhabitants of some nations seem not to listen to what a majority of the rest of the world says.

Your second statement could describe Germany as well as any other country, thus it is a bad statement, for your arguement.

Personally, I’ve always known it as Krystollnacht (or however it’s spelled) so I’ll refer to it by that name. At least I’ll know everyone I speak to knows what I am referring too, hardly anyone I’d actually talk to would know it by Progrome.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Krystollnacht (or however it’s spelled)…

As the spelling is correct here in this thread, and you were able to spell it correctly …. well …

Hooh Hah :).

[Rune Blade]

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

Again, no one is forced to say the pledge. If you’re upset about kids like the Jahova Witnesses getting ridiculed, guess what, kids pick on other kids. That’s life. Life is not fair. The pledge has nothing to do with this. I respect those kids who say the pledge because they believe in it. YOu know, we do live in America. Saying the pledge should be seen as taking pride in your nation.

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

[Mary]

@Rune:

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

Again, no one is forced to say the pledge. If you’re upset about kids like the Jahova Witnesses getting ridiculed, guess what, kids pick on other kids. That’s life. Life is not fair. The pledge has nothing to do with this. I respect those kids who say the pledge because they believe in it. YOu know, we do live in America. Saying the pledge should be seen as taking pride in your nation.

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

Kids pick on other kids? That’s life? Truly, you are a master debater. Do you not realize I’ve been a teacher for seven years? I’ve SEEN kids picked on for not saying the pledge. Do you know what the kids invariably say? “If I say it, I’ll get in trouble (or go to hell- I’ve gotten that repsonse several times), but if I don’t, the kids make fun of me.”

Go teach for five years, then I’ll repect what you have to say about life and kids bullying each other. Till then, STFU. There is no downside to removing “under God”. There is an upside. Remove it.

[Linkon]

The downside is that other nations who also view themselves as “under God” will be less willing to form coalitions with us against repressively evil dictators and/or commie regimes.

There may even be many God fearing governments around the world who would use our dropping “under God” as a reason to form active economic/military coalitions against the USA.

[cystic crypt]

Linkon - name ONE nation that you are concerned about.

[Mary]

Commie regimes? WTH? McCarthy must be spinning in his grave. Quick! To SouthEast Asia!

[Guest]

Iran might be concerned not to ally with the US anymore when they are not “Under God” anymore.

[Janus1]

honestly, when did kids become such losers? “they make fun of me for not saying the pledge of allegiance”??? these kids are dorks! im surprised they arent all making fun of themselves. its absurd! what will they pick on next? someone didnt raise their hand in class? someone didnt look both ways before crossing the street?
“i wont go back to school mom”
“why not son? did the children make fun of you again?”
"they keep laughing at me and saying “timmy didnt eat all his vegetables, what a nerd!”

!!!

where does it end?
since when did it become cool to follow the rules? next thing you know, it will be super cool to be smart, and be a teacher’s pet!

we need to go teach these kids a lesson! five across the eye, keep going till you smack some sense into them…

…

[Mary]

If only you knew the half of it, Janus. We should be focusing more on bullying, esp. after Columbine, but the school I’m at seems to turn a blind eye.

[cystic crypt]

@Mary:

If only you knew the half of it, Janus. We should be focusing more on bullying, esp. after Columbine, but the school I’m at seems to turn a blind eye.

That’s weird. Many schools up here are focussed on “values” etc. particularly in efforts to curb bullying.
Having said that - we’ve had our share of bully-related “events”.

[Linkon]

@cystic:

Linkon - name ONE nation that you are concerned about.

The USA will be where I am most concerned.

I used to live in the Republic of China, which is under the threat of commie invasion.

Other places, like Singapore, and the Phillipines are potential targets for the same commies. The native Tibetans have fared poorly under commie rule.

Communist China will soon be a superpower. They will present a much greater challenge than Stalinist Russia. Will we be friends? Will their govmt become truly representative of the people? Will they end the barbaric population control measures? Will they finally allow free speech and respect basic human rights?

Will we as a nation stay united until they do?

We are allied for the moment to deal with N. Korea and the terrorists.

As a general rule, I favor any policy that makes the USA stronger. Reciting the pledge is one. NASA is another. Both unite us a bit more with the global community. Replacing the Taliban and Saddam with representative govmt’s will take much effort, but it is the right thing to do, so it makes us stronger.

[cystic crypt]

@Linkon:

The downside is that other nations who also view themselves as “under God” will be less willing to form coalitions with us against repressively evil dictators and/or commie regimes.

There may even be many God fearing governments around the world who would use our dropping “under God” as a reason to form active economic/military coalitions against the USA.

name one country, in this world, that you honestly believe would be less willing to form a coalition with you on THIS basis.

If the US was actually concerned in the least with increasing its cadre of friends willing to form coalitions with it, then it is giong about it completely the wrong way. Iraq did NOTHING to encourage European/other nations to band with the US. In fact, all it did was alienate the US from many European, Arabic, and other nations.

Bush has to stop lying to other nations if it wants allies, to stop invading sovereign nations, to stop terrorizing other nations who he does not feel ideologically alligned with.

Anyway Linkon. this is the worst reason i’ve heard of to say the pledge of allegiance (or to keep the phrase “under God” in it). My guess is that you would be the only person in America who buys this as Bush (as well as your conservative board members) very obviously does NOT care about making friends/the rest of the world - civilized or otherwise.

[stuka pilot]

Okay I haven’t check this thread in awhile. But is there concern that other nations would form a coalition against us because we drop “under god”?? Am I reading this right?? So we invade another nation and we are okay. But if we drop a couple of words and we are in trouble?? Are you kidding me?!?!?