Number 4 from the top is Soviet Marshal Aleksandr Vasilevsky.
Govt. Response to Katrina
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@cystic:
@cystic:
again a terrible analogy.
So the fact that only a few US solders died relative to other stupid wars justifies the invasion? I suppose these people would have died in the US if they were not killing Iraqis . . . in Chicago?? Really - you are so all over the map with your non-sequitors and fried logic.This is but ONE time you tried to tell me that Chicago was safer. There are other times when I specifically said that the highways in Chicago are more dangerous then being a US soldier in Iraq where you told me to prove up and I did.
You really have a short memory, for a doctor. maybe you arn’t getting enough sleep?? You really should go see someone about that, it could be a mental disorder.
Again you lied, and you used quotes to prove it. Bizaare.
Also - insulting me does not make you look smarter.(note: i did not tell you that Chicago was safer - i said that comparing these numbers was inappropriate paricularly when it comes to justifying an invasion. Completely different. Stop fricken’ lying about me. In fact - don’t make further reference about me, and i won’t reference you. Aside from defending myself i am boycotting further discussion with you.)
YES! I might have an intelligent discussion without your inanitites interfering again!
As I said, that was but ONE instance of you saying I was wrong when I was clearly correct in referrencing the two.
For instance, there is a clear correllation between the two:
Street Gangs in Chicago = Insurgents in Iraq
Accidents in Chicago = Accidents in Iraq
Heatstroke/Freezing in Chicago = Heatstroke/Freezing in Iraq
Disease/Illness in Chicago = Disease/Illness in IraqIt’s all the same. Same types of deaths, everything is the same! You just wish them to be different because it clearly shows that life in our country on any given day is MORE dangerous then dealing with a couple rag-tag terrorists in Iraq.
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So should we invade the Windy City then? It almost seems you are making a good reason for it…and with your stating most of the nation guard from Illinois and Kentucky are deployed already in the beach resort that is Iraq then it should be a push over…
This was sarcasm…I still can’t believe you are really trying to show that the City with Too Many Nicknames is just the same as the peace keeping mission/conflict/war/not a war that is Iraq…
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So should we invade the Windy City then? It almost seems you are making a good reason for it…and with your stating most of the nation guard from Illinois and Kentucky are deployed already in the beach resort that is Iraq then it should be a push over…
This was sarcasm…I still can’t believe you are really trying to show that the City with Too Many Nicknames is just the same as the peace keeping mission/conflict/war/not a war that is Iraq…
No, the beach resort is Gitmo.
And yes, we most assuredly should send in the national guard to curtail the gang violence, racial violence and highway violence in the streets of Chicago. Furthermore, we should hold congressional hearings for Mayor Daley to investigate why this man allowed the city to fall to such dissarray.
See, this is why I think we should focus on the home front and not the foreigners. No offense, but screw em. We have our own problems here at home. If we fixed those, we’d be a shining utopia for the world to emulate instead of trying to fix the problems of others.
Also, please note, I’m only comparing the two in incidents of death rates. Iraq is much more democratic then Chicago, it’s a much nicer place to live (at least you don’t have drive by shootings every day in almost every neighborhood, or multiple rapes each night, or helpless policemen that would rather take bribes then stand up for the victims and arrest the criminals, etc.) There’s a major problem here. And maybe, just maybe, the only solution is to invoke the Insurrection Act and quell the city by military force. Or maybe we could just fire the police and hire new ones from other states/cities so that we can clean up our streets.
However, whatever the solution is to Chicago’s problems, the fact remains that it is extremely more dangerous to walk the streets of Chicago at night then it is to walk the streets of Baghdad at night.
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at least you don’t have drive by shootings every day in almost every neighborhood, or multiple rapes each night, or helpless policemen that would rather take bribes then stand up for the victims and arrest the criminals, etc.
Instead you have roadside bombs instead of drive by’s, shoots all day and night and I haven’t heard it reported but I am sure there are plenty of women being treated poorly over there. And if you want to talk about a corrupt police force come on…
Since you won’t try to stop comparing the two I pose this question - if Iraq is such a walk in the park why do we still need troops over there? Hell it sounds like a vacation hot spot, should I start looking at group rates?
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at least you don’t have drive by shootings every day in almost every neighborhood, or multiple rapes each night, or helpless policemen that would rather take bribes then stand up for the victims and arrest the criminals, etc.
Instead you have roadside bombs instead of drive by’s, shoots all day and night and I haven’t heard it reported but I am sure there are plenty of women being treated poorly over there. And if you want to talk about a corrupt police force come on…
Thank you for making my point. The streets of Iraq are very similar to the streets of Chicago, IL. The only real difference is that the number of deaths in Iraq are miniscule when compared to the number of deaths in Chicago, IL.
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That’s settled, we will declare Iraq the new Mexico, and we will start the invasion of Chicago, which shall here by be known as “TERRORIST HARDCORE ESCAPE FROM CHICAGO DEATH CITY 2000”
For that matter let’s abandon Korea too and look at invading Detriot and DC as the crime rate in these two cities makes TERRORIST HARDCORE ESCAPE FROM CHICAGO DEATH CITY 2000 look like…well Newer Mexico.
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That’s settled, we will declare Iraq the new Mexico, and we will start the invasion of Chicago, which shall here by be known as “TERRORIST HARDCORE ESCAPE FROM CHICAGO DEATH CITY 2000”
For that matter let’s abandon Korea too and look at invading Detriot and DC as the crime rate in these two cities makes TERRORIST HARDCORE ESCAPE FROM CHICAGO DEATH CITY 2000 look like…well Newer Mexico.
Please? No really! We need to send in the national guard to augment the police in these areas and clean up the streets! After all, this is allegedly a nation of free peoples in a technologically advanced situation and yet, a young woman of any race cannot walk the streets of Chicago at night alone and feel safe. There’s something tremendously wrong there!
As I’ve said, over and over and over and over again, in more threads then even a moderator could count iwth infinite time and resources available at his command; screw the world’s problems and fix the problems at home first! Once we have a perfect society, THEN, and only then, can we invade another nation and fix their society.
Now, I defend Iraq’s invasion primarily because of just how evil the dictator was there and because we’re there now anyway, so we may as well finish it, that, and there was nothing illegal with the invasion there, we were defending our servicemen, we were freeing an enslaved population and we were setting up a safe haven for democracy in the middle east. But that doesn’t mean that I would have preferred an invasion of Iraq with armed forces then an invasion of East LA with armed forces setting down martial law for a short time, arresting all violent offenders, associates of violent offenders and illegal aliens (those without permission from teh gov’t to be there) and then restoring order to the civilian authorities as we did (and are doing in parts still) of Iraq.
Obviously the police can’t handle it. Crime’s been on the rise in major cities for decades. Oh sure, in certain years it goes down, but the overall trend since the 50’s is up. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the gangs have better weapons then the police? What’s a berretta going to do against an AK-47? What’s a small kevlar vest going to do against a 7.62mm round? Maybe we need some Bradleys in there to take out the crackhouses, destroy the gangs and let the people, who want to live in nice neighborhoods and lead productive lives, free of the tyranny imposed upon them by a city government incapable of protecting them and gangs too strong to be resisted?
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Okay!
Now that we all agree that the Mayor(Nagin) of Orleans was an idiot…
" 1500 Yella Buses? You mean them BIG yella hopscotch squares in the New Orleans Puddle?"…
“Orleans is bankrupt. So we gotta have 180,000 Orleaneans move back in the French Dime by this weekend so I kin have a paycheck by next week!”And we know that the the Governor of LA is an incompetent twit…
“Emergency food and water for the Saints fans? They haven’t placed their orders yet!”Plus, Senator ‘pretty little bottle blonde daughter of Orleans Gentry in her Christian Dior outfit’ Landrieu complained…
“President Bush didn’t help until after we didn’t do anything!”Finally, we recognize that W made a small mistake…
“Karl, you mean I kin become a dictator, save all those Frenchyfied liberals, be a national hero agin, and the Democrats won’t be able to do more than snivel like they have every time I blow it and still come up smellin’ bett’ern they do?”Maybe we’ve found a LA Congressman who can get something done…
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1123495&page=1
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And for the record, we do have proof of Yellow Cake sales to Iraq (that would be nuclear fissionable material from Africa, capable of being turned into rudimentary nuclear bombs)… and rocket delivery systems that far exceeded the distance permitted by the UN resolutions
I guess you meant “no proof” for the yellow cake: that was shown to be fake even before the war started, and later admitted even by the US gov’t.
http://www.armscontrol.org/whatsnew/iraq-nigerchronology.aspA question to the moderators: how should i (personally) call this contradiction between one person claiming one truth and several organisations claiming a different truth ?
“far exceeded”: Iraq was allowed rockets with a range of 150 km. The Al Samoud had a “potential range” of 180 km, all i found was that tested for “more than 150 km” but did not reach the 180 km.
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@F_alk:
A question to the moderators: how should i (personally) call this contradiction between one person claiming one truth and several organisations claiming a different truth ?
“irritating”
If you find that you are becoming continually irritated by this, then walk away from this particular discussion. You are not alone in your frustration, but this happens to us all at one time or another.
If you find this to be continually intolerable, then you may have to simply ignore her repeatedly. If you find you have to correct certain posts, then do so simply. I am finding that i have to try a different approach myself, or i may ruin a very nice LCD monitor. -
Another attempt to return to the topic…
So Prez W was slow to respond to Katrina, eh?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/13/110122.shtml
Try that. Or are you already complaining about what you would call “a Right-Wing Conspiracy Source?”
Facts is facts.
FACT : Some peeeeople posting on this website have difficulty with boundaries…me, too, at times.
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@El:
Another attempt to return to the topic…
So Prez W was slow to respond to Katrina, eh?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/13/110122.shtml
Try that. Or are you already complaining about what you would call “a Right-Wing Conspiracy Source?”
Facts is facts.
FACT : Some peeeeople posting on this website have difficulty with boundaries…me, too, at times.
They arn’t argueing this anymore probably because it’s been proved to the point even the media had to back off.
Could FEMA have gotten there sooner? maybe. With 20/20 hindsight we could have had all the materials needed onsite before the disaster ever struck. The levvies could have been reinforced as advised decades before they broke, the salvation army could have been allowed to bring the 50 tons of food and fresh water to NO and store it in the super dome like they wanted, the US Aircraft Carrier could have been dispatched days earlier then it was so it would be onsite within hours of the storm’s passing, etc.
However, even with all the planning that took place in NO before the storm, by men who probably meant the best, was destroyed by inactivity by those who either had no idea how to handle a crisis or worse, by men who desired to witness crisis first hand. And no, I’m not saying the mayor or governor wanted to see hundreds killed in an afternoon. But that doesn’t mean some of the inactivity wasn’t done purposely and maliciously either for personal gain or some hatred of some group or organization by another.
For instance, there are reports leaking out that explosive residue’s been found on the levvies. Not saying it’s true, but you have to wonder who’s propagating this story, what’s the cause of releasing this story and, if it’s true, why it was done? (Sometimes levvies are broken on purpose to save damage to civilizations, was this attmepted but done at the wrong place and/or wrong time? Was it malicious? Did it never happen it’s just the fantasy of a lunatic?)
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@cystic:
If you find that you are becoming continually irritated by this, then walk away from this particular discussion. You are not alone in your frustration, but this happens to us all at one time or another.
If you find this to be continually intolerable, then you may have to simply ignore her repeatedly. If you find you have to correct certain posts, then do so simply. I am finding that i have to try a different approach myself, or i may ruin a very nice LCD monitor.Sorry CC,
i see your point, but i am not willing to let these contradictions stand so that they can influence the weakly willed.
Your advice would let them “conquer the field” without even fighting for it. This stance (or similar) has lead to huge catastrophe in my country, and i want to think that i have learnt my lesson from that part of history.
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Two things, first:
http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html
Incredibly hilarious, but some strong language used.
Second, as I said either in this thread or the other, if you looked hard enough you’d find someone saying the government caused this catastrophy:
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=8265
(Recap: Basically they are saying the government blew up the levvies on purpose to kill the black man.)
I’ve also heard people saying that Pres. Bush has a weather control device and created the hurricane to kill the Black Man in New Orleans.
Told you the whackos would come out! This is why you can’t use blogs to support arguements! This is also why you can’t use News Commentators or Columnists to support arguements.
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@F_alk:
@cystic:
If you find that you are becoming continually irritated by this, then walk away from this particular discussion. You are not alone in your frustration, but this happens to us all at one time or another.
If you find this to be continually intolerable, then you may have to simply ignore her repeatedly. If you find you have to correct certain posts, then do so simply. I am finding that i have to try a different approach myself, or i may ruin a very nice LCD monitor.Sorry CC,
i see your point, but i am not willing to let these contradictions stand so that they can influence the weakly willed.
Your advice would let them “conquer the field” without even fighting for it. This stance (or similar) has lead to huge catastrophe in my country, and i want to think that i have learnt my lesson from that part of history.
If you must keep to the field, then a change of tactics may be required - if only for your sanity.
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@cystic:
If you must keep to the field, then a change of tactics may be required - if only for your sanity.
But if it is agitating me … how do i lower my stress (especially sicne i stopped smoking and can’t use that drug anymore) ?
Oh … btw … it just struck my eye that probably i am on probation because i stopped smoking … tsss… and then people claim it is better to stop ;).
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@F_alk:
@cystic:
If you must keep to the field, then a change of tactics may be required - if only for your sanity.
But if it is agitating me … how do i lower my stress (especially sicne i stopped smoking and can’t use that drug anymore) ?
exercise :D
Oh … btw … it just struck my eye that probably i am on probation because i stopped smoking … tsss… and then people claim it is better to stop ;).
smoking actually raises your overall physiological feeling of stress. The individual cigarettes temporarily lower it back towards your original baseline.
So with your overall “physiological” stress level lowered, you now find yourself without an excuse. :P -
Now that some more facts and stories are coming out, I 'd like to post this from the Washington Times. (see below)
I bolded the stuff in the story relative to the timeline.
Aug 27 - Bush asks Gov to issue evacuation order (2 days prior to storm)
Aug 28 - Gov fianlly issues evacuation order (1 day later)
Aug 29 - Hurricane Katrina hits
Aug 31 - Gov has still failed to ask for Federal troops
Sept 2 - Bush again offers to take Federal control of the situation
The Gov says she needs 24 hrs to think it over, and ultimately REJECTS the offer.
Sept 6-7 - Gov and Mayor are still not enforcing mandatory evacuation and are fueding a bit.Say what you want about Bush, but he was engaged and did offer Federal help both before and immediately after the storm. Maybe he should have been more forceful, but I really do think the local leadership (both Gov and Mayor) was extremely poor, bordering on incompetent to say the least.
It should also be noted that both the Gov and Mayor are Dems, yet the Mayor endorced a Rep who ran against the Gov. That may explain some of the friction between those two.
Also note the Gov regrets about not asking for troops earlier, but again rejects the Presidents offer on Sept 2.
_The latest in a long line of disputes among local, state and federal officials over Hurricane Katrina was defused yesterday when New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin called off reopening the city, although he cited another storm for his capitulation rather than federal officials’ litany of concerns.
The various levels of government have disagreed over when to call in federal troops and whether the entire operation should be federalized. They also have clashed over when and how to evacuate New Orleans and when to let residents return.
“We share the goal of the mayor, but we have got concerns,” Mr. Bush said early yesterday, when Mr. Nagin still was allowing residents to return.
“The mayor has got this dream about having a city up and running – and we share that dream,” Mr. Bush said. “But we also want to be realistic about some of the hurdles and obstacles that we all confront in repopulating New Orleans.”
The obstacles include the possibility of additional flooding from Tropical Storm Rita, which was heading toward the Gulf of Mexico yesterday, and the lack of electricity, drinking water and sewage facilities. Early yesterday, Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen said it might be as much as a week before residents could return safely.
“We just think that conditions need to be set so when people come back in, they can operate safely, and, moreover, with the weakened levee system, that there’s a plan to evacuate whatever number of people are allowed back in the city,” he told CNN.
“When those conditions are met and the risk has been reduced, then the population comes in,” he added. “That could be two days, five days, one week.”
Mr. Nagin initially criticized the remarks and insisted that up to 180,000 people – about a third of the city’s population – be allowed to return during the next 10 days.
“I’m a little surprised the admiral came out publicly on this,” Mr. Nagin told Fox News Channel in the morning. “Maybe since I’ve been away a day or two, maybe he’s the new crowned federal mayor of New Orleans.”
Mr. Nagin, who spent the weekend in Dallas, said: “If he’s suggesting I’m pushing a little hard, I am. The citizens of New Orleans deserve the opportunity to see what they have left and what they can salvage.”
Later in the day, however, Mr. Nagin began reassessing the timing of his plan because of Tropical Storm Rita and other “external factors,” said Nagin spokeswoman Sally Foreman.
By the end of the day, the mayor reversed himself, agreeing with Mr. Bush and Adm. Allen that it was too soon and too unsafe for residents to return.The rift yesterday was the latest in a series of high-profile disagreements among federal, state and local officials about how to handle the hurricane and the subsequent flooding of New Orleans.
The discord began Aug. 27, when Mr. Bush asked Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order an evacuation of New Orleans. Mrs. Blanco did not issue the order until Aug. 28, a day before Hurricane Katrina made landfall.
Mrs. Blanco also neglected to ask the president for federal troops when she wrote him a letter on Aug. 27 and when she spoke with him on Aug. 29. She had not made the request even on Aug. 31, when she gave a series of television interviews in Baton Rouge.
“I really need to call for the military,” she told her press secretary between interviews. “And I should have started that in the first call.”
Later that day, she asked the White House for troops, which were dispatched to assist Louisiana National Guard forces.
Mrs. Blanco hesitated again when she met Sept. 2 with Mr. Bush, who offered to have the federal government take over the chaotic evacuation. Mrs. Blanco said she needed 24 hours to make a decision and ultimately rejected the federal offer.
Mr. Nagin later told CNN that Mrs. Blanco and Mr. Bush needed to “get in sync.” But within days, Mr. Nagin and Mrs. Blanco were feuding with each other over whether New Orleans residents should be ordered to leave their homes.
“My mandatory evacuation is still in effect,” Mr. Nagin said Sept. 6.
But Mrs. Blanco refused to enforce the order, saying she needed more time for scientists to test the toxicity of floodwaters, even though health officials were warning that the waters were very dangerous.
“The mayor certainly has ordered that, but the governor – and that would be me – will have to enforce it or implement it,” Mrs. Blanco said Sept. 7.
Mr. Bush will make more trips to the storm-hit areas this week, meeting today with Mississippi business owners and civic leaders in Gulfport and visiting a recovering business in New Orleans.
On Friday and Saturday, he will travel to Alabama, Texas and Arkansas, which have absorbed thousands of refugees from the harder-hit neighboring states.
“The trip will be an opportunity for the president to personally thank some cities and states that have taken in large numbers of our fellow citizens affected by Katrina,” White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters._Link:
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Yeah, she’s gonna be a one-termer. HOwever, the Guard was mobilized before the hurricane hit. Had thousands of guardsmen been here instead of over in Iraq, maybe federal troops wouldn’t have been needed. I posted a reply to Baker quoting a Guard Lt. General stating the loss of troops to Iraq probably made the aid effort take a day longer. And why the hell was “Bronwnie” running FEMA anywhere? Was there no one more qualified than a former overseer of a horse-breeding facility? Bang up job, Bush! And the Congress that approved him.
Oh, and this is Bush we’re talking about. This guy needs to ask permission before deploying troops? Did he ask the people of Iraq if they wanted to be invaded or did he just sort of assume they did? Why couldn’t Bush just assume the dying people in Orleans wanted help? Who’s gonna impeach him? Republican controlled Congress? LOL. Bush could have come out looking like a hero (send in the cavalry, to hell with red-tape!). Instead he fell into “My Pet Goat” mode.
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at the risk of agreeing with you (again) Mary . . .
I will never understand how a governor general was able to thwart the goals of Bush to save the people of LA, and yet the Iraqi army could not thwart the plans of Bush to kill many thousands of Iraqis.
Also - i think i would have made a good director of FEMA.
i mean
“common people” - i’ve got an M.Sc., an MD, and i’ve been a territory manager for a major pharma company. If that doesn’t translate into FEMA-cred, then i guess . . . is POTUS open?
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