Happy Math v Terrorism

[Xi]

I agree w/Y_sman,

And when I find myself afraid of the bad guys for any reason I just remember the Iraqi Information Minister, “there are no American forces in Iraqi, but if they are here we are are destroying them.” And the film footage of the Iraqi military straegy meeting where the map on the wall was shaking because of the bombs exploding outside the building. :lol:

Or closer to home … anybody see the news about the “Kissing Bandit” @ the Cincinnati Reds game on Saturday? He was pictured kissing his date ON THE JUMBOTRON and his parole officer was @ the game. He was arrested @ the 7th inning stretch for violating parole(he didn’t show up @ his last hearing)and may go to jail for up to 20 years. :roll:

[Guest]

What else might be done…

The prime thing would be to fight the source of terrorism. Fear, Misunderstanding etc., and instead teach tolerance and acceptance of other ways of life and cultures (to both sides!!).

A famous word, of a victim of terror short after WWI:
“Freedom alwys is the Freedom of those differently minded.”

[Yanny]

I completely agree Falk. Terrorism is not something that can be beaten with bombs, although sometimes bombs are neccessary.

[El Jefe]

I find this struggle between nations and terrorists to be a sideshow(a terrible one, but still a sideshow. History will make note of it moreso than the true conflict.

I understand F_alk’s point, but it is too simplistic. It’s not a “both sides” or ‘them v us’ concept. Terrorists exist in various cultures fighting for different things(a separate nation, a fundamentalist Islamic nation, or to keep the existing government weak are just a few examples.)

The key terrorism we speak of these days seems to be Islamic fundamentalists fighting to destroy Israel/the Jews, create a fundamentalist Islamic nation, and/or drive the infidels from Islam’s holy lands(What is holy is an argument unto itself for these groups.)

I do not believe that the key fight in this arena will be between Christians/Jews and Muslims, nor between the US/various democracies and Muslims, nor between Muslim countries such as Turkey and Iran. I perceive that the struggle will be between conservative and fundamentalist Muslims for the future of Islam.

The conservatives are found to be more numerous in the democracies of the world and vary from a minority to a majority in different parts of the Middle East, Africa and the Pacific Islands. The fundamentalist’s stronghold is the “cradle of Isam” and radiates from there to where it can gain ground the easiest. This would be Africa, the Pacific Islands, and those struggling in affluent societies(Note the mosques built with Saudi oil money throughout the US and the efforts to gain followers in the prisons[though Christians also put efforts toward the prison population, too.])

We try to comprehend the conflict, but we “see through a glass darkly.” We who do not walk the path of Islam or one that seldom intersects it can understand little of the struggle. We do not know their culture nor do we read the Holy Quran in its perfect form(Arabic.)

I have studied and spoken with students of a variety of Middle Eastern cultures. I tell you we do not know the trouble to come. Some of it will be violence, some spiritual, some cognitive.

My hope is that those who think they lead the struggle will know when to be still so that the true battle may begin in earnest.

[Yanny]

Just a note. In my Driver’s Education class, we had a member of the rescue squad to come in and speak. Here are some facts he mentioned:

Drivers killed on highways alone every year: 43,000
Of these drivers, number of drivers legally drunk: 25,000

Terrorism? Outlaw Alchohol, we’ll actually be doing some good.

[cystic crypt]

@Yanny:

Just a note. In my Driver’s Education class, we had a member of the rescue squad to come in and speak. Here are some facts he mentioned:

Drivers killed on highways alone every year: 43,000
Of these drivers, number of drivers legally drunk: 25,000

Terrorism? Outlaw Alchohol, we’ll actually be doing some good.

The problem is that people are allowed to drive just after they are able to reproduce. We need these people to select themselves out of the gene pool somehow without taking innocent non-idiots with them.

[ZimZaxZeo]

Comparing the drunk driving death stats to deaths by terrorism, ey?
Want to ponder an even more sobering statistic?
11 million is about 1.8 percent of 6 billion.
Know what I’m working back towards?
A statistic I heard quoted a while ago.

I wanted to check it out for myself, in round numbers, so I “did the math.”
The statistical statement was along the lines of… 3,000 people were killed in the 9/11 terrorist attack – yet, every day around the world, 30,000 children die of disease, starvation, war, etc. Not one day out of the year. Every day.

So I did the simple math, to gauge whether it seemed to make sense: 30,000 x 365 is approx. 11 million annually. And that’s a bit under 2 percent of the six billion world population, which seems roughly what it might be. Indeed, even if the number is way off, and it’s “only” 15,000 a day, or 5.5 million a year, it seems accurate. And while I have not looked up World Health Org or UN stats to check, I would venture to say that the number one killer is certainly mosquito-borne malaria, followed by several other major bacterial and viral strains. Think of that! The flimsy little mosquito, which rarely lives for more than a couple of days, is the most consistent, lethal assassin of youth on our planet.

It’s the poverty, the ignorance, the greed, the fear… that keep us as a species from besting these challenges. Like you all said above, this macabre entertainment of overhyped terrorism and religion-warped strife will certainly take on “sideshow” status in the long, historical view of our presumed “progress.” Poor kids.

[ctm]

:o So every time I kill a mosquito, I’ll tell myself I just saved a life. They should write a book about me, I’d be like a saint by now

[ZimZaxZeo]

Sure, you just need an energetic literary agent – and an audience with the Pope!

[cystic crypt]

@ZimZaxZeo:

Comparing the drunk driving death stats to deaths by terrorism, ey?
Want to ponder an even more sobering statistic?
11 million is about 1.8 percent of 6 billion.
Know what I’m working back towards?
A statistic I heard quoted a while ago.

I wanted to check it out for myself, in round numbers, so I “did the math.”
The statistical statement was along the lines of… 3,000 people were killed in the 9/11 terrorist attack – yet, every day around the world, 30,000 children die of disease, starvation, war, etc. Not one day out of the year. Every day.

So I did the simple math, to gauge whether it seemed to make sense: 30,000 x 365 is approx. 11 million annually. And that’s a bit under 2 percent of the six billion world population, which seems roughly what it might be. Indeed, even if the number is way off, and it’s “only” 15,000 a day, or 5.5 million a year, it seems accurate. And while I have not looked up World Health Org or UN stats to check, I would venture to say that the number one killer is certainly mosquito-borne malaria, followed by several other major bacterial and viral strains. Think of that! The flimsy little mosquito, which rarely lives for more than a couple of days, is the most consistent, lethal assassin of youth on our planet.

It’s the poverty, the ignorance, the greed, the fear… that keep us as a species from besting these challenges. Like you all said above, this macabre entertainment of overhyped terrorism and religion-warped strife will certainly take on “sideshow” status in the long, historical view of our presumed “progress.” Poor kids.

This is all a very good point.
Your math is flawed, however - you are off by a magnitude of 10 - it is 0.18%.
This doesn’t change the fact that millions of people are dying of preventable illnesses and diseases annually. At the same time, population control is increasingly necessary period. Are these nature’s way of keeping the earth in some kind of twisted balance?

[Guest]

@El:

I find this struggle between nations and terrorists to be a sideshow(a terrible one, …

It is more than a sideshow for a lot of people though, and i fear there it is very easy to plant hate and desire for revenge into anybodies heart.
Remember what happened in Europe by the mutual hate between French and Germans after the 1870/71 war. Well, it happened 45 / 70 years later, but it seems as this is how long it takes to really make the people believe the hate and reach all of them.

I understand F_alk’s point, but it is too simplistic.

Sure it is, but it’s the only way to start as i see it. Everything else will turn into “us vs. them” for at least one of the involved parties.

It’s not a “both sides” or ‘them v us’ concept. Terrorists exist in various cultures fighting for different things(a separate nation, a fundamentalist Islamic nation, or to keep the existing government weak are just a few examples.)

Well, even then it is an “us vs. them”, the terrorists see themselves as freedom-fighters (as do their allies) while the other side calls them terrorists. Alone the name giving tells you which side you are on. Whatever scenario, you find at least two struggling parties, one of them -usually the “weaker” one- using methods of guerilla warfare, thus terrorism in modern words.

The key terrorism we speak of these days seems to be Islamic fundamentalists fighting to destroy Israel/the Jews, create a fundamentalist Islamic nation, and/or drive the infidels from Islam’s holy lands(What is holy is an argument unto itself for these groups.)

This is the picture that is shown to us. But are you so sure that you are describing the source or the symptoms? It more seems that you already picked a side ( like everyone who first hears of the conflict).

I do not believe that the key fight in this arena will be between Christians/Jews and Muslims, nor between the US/various democracies and Muslims, nor between Muslim countries such as Turkey and Iran. I perceive that the struggle will be between conservative and fundamentalist Muslims for the future of Islam.

smile and of course there are no liberal muslims. You are right in what you say though.

We try to comprehend the conflict, but we “see through a glass darkly.” We who do not walk the path of Islam or one that seldom intersects it can understand little of the struggle. We do not know their culture nor do we read the Holy Quran in its perfect form(Arabic.)

Some do though, and if you listen to what they have to say, then suddenly the whole struggle looks different and very much like the things you said above.
And what you said is of course a reasons why so many misunderstandings happen. “We westerners” on the side of power and might no as much as nothing about “them muslims”, but still, we expect them to understand our ways, see that we are -of course- right, and that it would be better to them to follow us. With this, we deny them their right to live their own culture, and exactly this - the westernization or as muslim fundamentalists would say: corruption - of Islam is the source of their fundamentalism. Just like christianity had reformation and counter-reformation (of the catholic church) some thousand years after it was started, Islam now has a “reformation” and return to “the true values” (look at this and remember what all evangelistic protestantism was about in its early days).
And we sit outside, watch, and support some of those in the struggle. And this support of course makes us the enemies of the other side.

[Guest]

@cystic:

The problem is that people are allowed to drive just after they are able to reproduce. We need these people to select themselves out of the gene pool somehow without taking innocent non-idiots with them.

Sounds like you enjoy the Darwin awards a lot :)

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

[
Well, even then it is an “us vs. them”, the terrorists see themselves as freedom-fighters (as do their allies) while the other side calls them terrorists. Alone the name giving tells you which side you are on. Whatever scenario, you find at least two struggling parties, one of them -usually the “weaker” one- using methods of guerilla warfare, thus terrorism in modern words.

UG!!!
The guy who goes out into a mall in order to intentionally kill as many women and children as possible is not a guerilla warrior, i do not care whose perspective you are using. This “person” is an evil butcher. Terrorist is a most appropriate label in this instance.
Bravo to the warrior who is facing a known enemy warrior, who uses stealth, cunning and strategy to best him on whatever turf by use of guerrila warfare.

[Guest]

That actually is a quite new phenomenon in conflicts of states vs. people.
Up to some time, terrorists/guerilla were happy in attacking enemy warriors, with the enemy attacking the supposed terrorists supporters. See Vietnam, Yugoslavia, France, Russia in WW2.
Now, in Israel/Palestine, the situation is different: here the guerilla/terrorists can actually reach the enemies civilians in their attacks, something that was impossible formerly.
I believe that is one reason why the above has changed.

I did not take into account another kinds of terrorism/guerilla: civil uprising against the own government. Here the situation is different, but surely we can agree that it is not the situation we find in Israel/Palestine.
Much more it is the case of what we knew to be terrorism in the 70s to mid 80s: some people (most often very few) take violent acts to “fight against the establishment”, most often in hope for a “better” society.

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

That actually is a quite new phenomenon in conflicts of states vs. people.
Up to some time, terrorists/guerilla were happy in attacking enemy warriors, with the enemy attacking the supposed terrorists supporters. See Vietnam, Yugoslavia, France, Russia in WW2.
Now, in Israel/Palestine, the situation is different: here the guerilla/terrorists can actually reach the enemies civilians in their attacks, something that was impossible formerly.
I believe that is one reason why the above has changed.

I did not take into account another kinds of terrorism/guerilla: civil uprising against the own government. Here the situation is different, but surely we can agree that it is not the situation we find in Israel/Palestine.
Much more it is the case of what we knew to be terrorism in the 70s to mid 80s: some people (most often very few) take violent acts to “fight against the establishment”, most often in hope for a “better” society.

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

[Guest]

@cystic:

@F_alk:

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

;) …. well, if it is an abortion doctor who runs around and does abortions without consent of the possible mother, then yes.

[El Jefe]

ZZZ, your 11m due to starvation annually doen’t work to well for me. I am familiar enough with famine/starvation in Africa, where much(NOT MOST)of the starvation/famine occurs. Families have many children because so many die due to diseases. This adds too much pressure to the environment, with national war/civil war/religious war, that cannot easily support a small family. Thus you have just part of the problem.
@F_alk:

And we sit outside, watch, and support some of those in the struggle. And this support of course makes us the enemies of the other side.

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.

I have Arab and Muslim(yes, I separate them because not all have kept the faith they/their parents believed) friends. Most tell me they left their countries because of the religious and/or government persecution. They are Egyptian, Saudi, Jordanian, Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian(LOTS of Iranians.)

I have spoken with them at length about the problems in the US and their own countries.

I speak from my limited world as do we all.

Alekum salaam!

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@cystic:

@F_alk:

Those people who “just” run amok and kill as many people as possible, i would not like to define as terrorists, but plain mad criminals.

i see we are more or less on the same page. So with respect to your last paragraph - would you include abortion doctors in that category? :D

;) …. well, if it is an abortion doctor who runs around and does abortions without consent of the possible mother, then yes.

no no,
just the children’s consent.

[Guest]

@El:

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.
…
I speak from my limited world as do we all.

One way would be:
… to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.
Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

For the UN not adressing anything there. Why should they try with the US’ position in the security council well known and extremely biased/obstructive.
And i agree, we are not there, we cannot tell. And somehow i fear that there will be no solution in that area, unless the world as a whole just does a total (and i mean total) economic blockade of this area, telling them that we only lift that once they start to actually talk to each other. 2 enemies alway can ally when they find a new common enemy.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@El:

And WHAT do you suggest…we let them kill one another?

Yes, I know Israel has done some things wrong. It was on yesterday’s news.

Yet I do not see the UN addressing Syria’s occupation of southern Lebanon permitting rocket and mortarattacks on northern Israel. Nor do I see the UN confronting Jordan on it’s occcupation of Palestinian territories.
…
I speak from my limited world as do we all.

One way would be:
… to ignore international law once more, and for good this time :). Occupy Palestine and Israel, take fundamentalists of both sides prisoner (that also means part of the Israeli gov’t and parlament). Take their weapons and shoot anyone who doesn’t give it up.
Another would be to hope that understanding and the way of violentless answers will rule one of the sides, so that the spiral of more and more violence can be broken. That would be a first step at least.

For the UN not adressing anything there. Why should they try with the US’ position in the security council well known and extremely biased/obstructive.
And i agree, we are not there, we cannot tell. And somehow i fear that there will be no solution in that area, unless the world as a whole just does a total (and i mean total) economic blockade of this area, telling them that we only lift that once they start to actually talk to each other. 2 enemies alway can ally when they find a new common enemy.

Of course!!! Let’s attack Israel and Palestine!!!