I’m sorry to hear that too.
I had three dogs my self. I feel with you.
Get rid of Columbus day!
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I don’t think it really matters to him, BB.
I’m trying to figure out what exactly Yanny has a problem with here. Don’t agree with the holiday? Don’t celebrate it. Why are you so gung-ho on taking away the celebration from the rest of the people in this country?
We’re not celebrating his (supposed) killings (if they are true), but rather we’re celebrating his accomplishments which made the founding of America possible. Do we stop recognizing the accomplishments of Abraham Lincoln, simply because he owned slaves?
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sigh I love how my arguments are never addressed :lol: . You’re a debater, Yanny, you should know that silence equals consent.
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If anyone has something against Christopher Columbus, it should not be the Carribean natives, Incas, et cetera who died as an indirect result of actions long after his rediscovery of the West. It should be the Jews and Moors, whose torture, death, and stolen gold financed his trip beforehand.
That is, if you believe that the Spanish Inquisition was a bad thing. It of course was not a good thing, but it is now being downplayed as less harmful than the other Catholic creed cleansings of the period. Kind of Genocide Lite I guess. Some records show as few as 3000 to 5000 deaths over a 350-year history of the government policy, which some say actually started around 1580 instead of the 1480s while others mention millions of brutally killed victims and horrible conditions for those allowed to live.
Even the current Pope says it was a bad thing, but that the Church and its members should repent of it and that others ideally would forgive it.
Personally, if I was arguing against Columbus, I’d use the past one could argue he should’ve known about much more than the future he couldn’t hope to predict.
Edit: fixed a grammatical error in the above sentence and some random typoos.http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2INQUI.HTM
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0201_In_Search_of_Columbu.html
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If you are interested in revisionist history, another great “starter” resource is Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States of America.
He asserts, (rightfully, in my opinion), that history in general is a malleable commodity and every word, phrase and omission has connotations that may or may not be discernable by the reader.
I’m no expert on the media, history, or even particularly liberal or conservative. However, I am open-minded enough to listen to other people’s arguments without resorting to cliche’ed responses. With that in mind, please reserve your judegment for Zinn’s views because, at first, they can seem outrageously “left.”
Zinn asserts that Columbus believed he’d landed in Asia (answering the question of why Native Americans are called “Indians”). Because they had no written history, it’s difficult to gather a full account of what happened within those few disasterous decades. Columbus and the spaniards, however, did keep journals…which reveals quite a bit.
The Arawak Indians (Tainos) greeted Columbus in the Bahamas. Columbus considered them gentle and people of peace. “They do not bear arms, and do not know for I showed them a sword–they took it by the edge and cut themselves.”
He continues with other observations that now seem culturally insensitive (because they’re so gentle they’d make fine servants, etc.). Anyway, we all know why Columbus was there…not to discover the new world as it was already pretty well discovered…but for gold. He makes no secret of this in his journals.
By 1500, Colubus’ forces had erected crosses all over the Bahamas–he was very religious–but also 340 gallows. Why would he build so many gallows?
Samuel Eliot Morison (Harvard historian and an admiring Columbus’ biographer) writes: “Whoever thought up this ghastly system, Columbus was responsible for it, as the only means of producing gold for export… Thos who fled to the mountains were hunted with hounds, and those who escaped, starvation and disease took toll, while thousands of poor creatures in desperation took cassava poison to end their miseries.”
Morison is referring to Columbus’ system for producing the vast tracts of gold the Arawaks supposedly had. The natives were ordered to produce a specific quantity of gold, and if they could not their arms were severed.
“So the policy and acts of Columbus for which he alone was responsible began the depopulation of the terrestrial paradise that was Hispaniola in 1492. Of the original natives, estimated by modern ethnologist at 300,000 in number, one-third were killed off between 1494 and 1496. By 1508, an enumeration showed only 60,000 alive…in 1548 Oviedo (Morison is referring to Fernandex de Oviedo, the official Spanish historian of conquest) doubted whether 500 Indians remained. -Morison
Speeding things up a bit, when gold couldn’t be produced, he sent slaves (about 500; though 200 died en route). From his journal in 1498: “From here one might send, in the name of the Holy Trinity, as many slaves as could be sold…”
Also take a look at Bartolome de las Casas, a Dominican priest who arrived in the New World a few years after Columbus and was horrified. He wrote a book called The Devastation of the Indians.
From Casas’ book we witness horrible, horrible atrocities commited by Columbus’ men. These accounts were corroborated by a group of Dominican friars, who addressed the Spanish gov’t in the hopes they would intercede.
It is estimated that in Cuba during the time, 7,000 children died in a period of 3 months due to enslaved and overworked parents, malnutrition and exposure.
Of course there was also the accidental deaths, such as typhoid, typhus, etc.
However, consider if cultural differences are “accidental.” For example, the Arawaks’ culture did not include any concept of private property. Yet, if a native “stole” from Columbus’ men they were beheaded or burned at the stake.
Columbus gave his men women to use. This is not a cultural misunderstanding. An Italian noble named Cuneo describes in his journal how he raped and beat a Caribbean woman whom Columbus had “given” him.
Anyway, I think we can ALL agree that Columbus discovered America kinda like I might “discover” a coke in your fridge.
-Thumb
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Anyway, I think we can ALL agree that Columbus discovered America kinda like I might “discover” a coke in your fridge.
-Thumb
Not quite the same, I know the coke in my fridge belongs to me and have the power to stop you from actualy enjoying what I belive to be my coke ;)
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It never ceases to amaze me on how we judge historical figures based on modern philosphies. Kinda and generous slave owner in the 1800s is a slave owning monster today.
How will we be judged in 500 years? Letting tinpot dictators run nations into the ground. Has anybody heard of the war that has been going on in the Congo? 5 million have died in the last 5 years or so, we let it happen, all of us. Funny how we feel pretty good about ourselves when we compare ourselves to those of 5 centuries ago.
Winston Churchill, he’s a drunk.
Roosevelt? An adulter.
Lincoln? A slave owner along with Thomos Jefferson, how could a slave owner go on to write “All me are created equal” is in of itself a lesson on hypocracy.
We’re killing our heros faster than we are making new ones.
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Hear, Hear! That’s a fine point. I personally have nothing against any of the people named in this thread, as I have not experienced life in their times or circumstances. I do know that no one is perfect, and that some of the imperfections mentioned here are big ones. But, it is not mine to judge.
Now, if someone did what Columbus did today, it would be met with a much different reaction not because we are better people per se but because we have different standards for ourselves and for one another than the norm at his time.
On the other hand, I have a problem with people forgiving the Nazis or the Kmehr Rouge too easily.
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Hear, Hear! That’s a fine point. I personally have nothing against any of the people named in this thread, as I have not experienced life in their times or circumstances. I do know that no one is perfect, and that some of the imperfections mentioned here are big ones. But, it is not mine to judge.
Now, if someone did what Columbus did today, it would be met with a much different reaction not because we are better people per se but because we have different standards for ourselves and for one another than the norm at his time.
On the other hand, I have a problem with people forgiving the Nazis or the Kmehr Rouge too easily.
what would be the equivalent of what CC did “today”?
To make a scientific discovery off the backs of his grad students, one that is a boon to millions and a devestation to thousands? This would not get off the ground, i don’t believe.
To push the frontiers of space, and to become the spokesperson for the KKK?
Is there anything one could do today to “warrent” a holiday in the future? Is there anything that would match the accomplishments and rudeness (for lack of a better word - i’m post 28-hour work-day) of Columbus?
I am of the mind that for all the good and evil:- North America would have been “discovered” by many other “explorers” of the time within 20 years of 1476 and already had been.
- Nothing would have prevented the deaths of millions to disease. Nothing. People are going to be immune to viruses and bugs that they carry and there are going to be people susceptible to these bugs. Are the few who visit from China to Toronto “evil” for bringing SARS to Canada? Of course not.
- Honoring Columbus is like honoring a mercenary, a gold panner, a merchant for doing what they do, except having a grander vision than most others. I would rather see this day go to “great scientists”, “physicians” (yes, i’m biased here), “great humanitarians”, or Me.
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Dezrtfish/Red…the Coke in the fridge only belongs to you if you believe in private property.
Guest & Mr_mischief…you make a good points about “updating” our opinions on historical figures. It’s healthy to question what you’ve been taught…and what better standards to apply than your own. If you feel that your standards are not righteous, then you should consider those while you’re at it.
Columbus’ actions (and, more importantly, the actions of his men) were at that time largely considered distasteful. Rape has never been acceptable. Neither has burning and dismembering men, women and children.
“But I’m not one to judge.”
And in 500 years? Yeah, I hope future generations are critical enough to depose heroes if it’s warranted. Good for them! Keep improving those heroes!
Here’s what I would give a holiday to, Cystic Crypt…
Subject founds pharmaceutical company, discovers/invents cure for AIDS, and broadly distributes across the world as a non-profit endeavor.
Gets the African National Congress off the ground and functioning as a guiding and peaceful leadership…and, ultimately, brings Africa into the 21st century.
Becomes an incredibly popular advocate for peace among the religious right, be it Christian, Muslim, or Jew. This person’s deeds lead to decades (or more) of peace in the middle east and elsewhere.
Those are a few just off the top of my head. Granted, they’re pretty large-scale. Here are some other “hero cauldrons”…
Poverty, domestic abuse, education, campaign and voting reforms, medical cures (cancer, etc.), superb skateboarding skills, space travel technology, or even grass-roots philosophers.
Okay, I’m talking a lot but not saying much.
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In todays world if somebody tried to give medicine cheap to third world countries they would be sued for using anti-dumping laws. The world is a cynical place.
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I have yet to see enough proof to convince me that CC was personally guilty of rape or of dismemberment. Dismemberment of theives and of slaves was rather common. I do consider slavery wrong. I do consider CC wrong for enslaving people.
I also have to give him some slack for operating under the prevalent assumption of his time that some people were important and some weren’t. I don’t think it makes him right or anyone else right to have done it. It was bad then, but it would be far worse for someone raised with today’s principles to do the same thing.
Columbus isn’t just honored for accidentally finding the West Indies. He’s honored for stating that the world is round and then making a discovery based on that. He stood up against one firm belief of his period – one that men had been excommunicated and even killed over. I don’t think we can hold one man to the standard of breaking with his entire culture in two such massively important issues until we each have at least done so on one count.
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I have yet to see enough proof to convince me that CC was personally guilty … of dismemberment.
Well, as CC is a medic, maybe he did dismember some people. :D ;) :)
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@F_alk:
I have yet to see enough proof to convince me that CC was personally guilty … of dismemberment.
Well, as CC is a medic, maybe he did dismember some people. :D ;) :)
the people i’ve dismembered were already dead.
I believe . . . . -
LMAO :lol: :lol:
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Sorry, I meant Christopher Columbus. But I believe the point that he broke against society and the Church in a time when it still wasn’t “Right” to think the world was round makes a big difference.
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Columbus’ actions (and, more importantly, the actions of his men) were at that time largely considered distasteful. Rape has never been acceptable. Neither has burning and dismembering men, women and children.
Mr. Thumb, I believe a jury of Huns, Vikings, Mongols and/or Visigoths would find you guilty of blasphemy or some other well trumped up charges.
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@cystic:
the people i’ve dismembered were already dead.
I believe . . . .Suddently the poster (as seen on X Files) “i want to believe” has a totally different meaning :)
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Well, there are a number of vaguely philosophical points being slipped on around here. For example, the person who embraces the actions of history for being relevant to its time will ultimately need to define when history starts. I did not like my boss yesterday and, for whatever reason, I punhed him in the face. Matters not if I was right or wrong because, at that time, it felt right.
On a larger scale that presumes right and wrong is defined by society, you have tons of great examples to choose from. If slavery is accepted, should we honor excellent slave “owners?”
I think we should continue to honor Columbus because there are already so many books and made-for-TV movies about him. It would be expensive to find a substitute.
TH.umb
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Lets pretend for a second. Ignore the 8 million figure, since its questionable.
Lets say there were 2,000,000 people on Haiti in 1492.
Christopher Columbus enslaved them and worked them to death. He was the leader of the Spanish in the region. As Hitler is responsible for the Halocaust, Columbus is responsible for the genocide. Do we really want a holiday dedicated to such a person? Someone who would enslave, kill, or maim 2,000,000 people for gold?
Sorry, I meant Christopher Columbus. But I believe the point that he broke against society and the Church in a time when it still wasn’t “Right” to think the world was round makes a big difference.
First off, also according to “Lies my Teacher Told me”, Columbus disproving that the world was flat is also a myth. As far back as Ancient Greece, scientists proved the earth was round, as it cast a spherical shadow on the moon. Evidence shoes (don’t have the book on me) that no serious scientist at the time believed that the earth was flat. The Flat Earth story is as much a children’s tale as the first thanksgiving.
How about a man who “broke against society and the church”, Charles Darwin. His book “The Origin of Species” changed science as a whole. Evolution is one of the biggest scientific discoveries in the past 300 years. Darwin didn’t kill millions of people. Darwin saved millions of lives.
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Yanny, why are you so “obsessed” with this book? How do you know for sure that what this guy is saying is the truth, and not just a bitter slap in the face to the publisher’s who rejected his American History book?
You citing this stuff as fact, would be like me using Rush Limbaugh as a reference. Sure, it may be true, but are we getting the whole story…? :-?
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