BobGordon303 vs Gazza

[seth4god]

@bobgordon303:

Hey AxisPlaya - I know and respect your game. If my club is playing wrong, I’ve been robbed in the past. But all that aside, I have a German Fighter, two German Tact, an Italian Tact and an Italian Fighter sitting in Germany. And if you look at C9 of the turn Gazza only brought his transports and Did not give me the opportunity to scramble, so I should be able to edit the board, sink the 2 transports with my air and move forward.

Bob, we play with the right rules and can opener play like this has popped up in the past from time to time. Jonathan almost lost a game to this very thing.

[Cow]

wut?

Yeah you can rewind the clock. 1) he can scramble vs usa who sent lone transports to take denmark to begin with. Opponent never asked for scramble orders or sent anything to begin with.

I draw two conclusions from this

1. neither player knew or remembered the scramblings
2. bob didn’t know know the canal rules

Plus it is common courtesy to ask for scramble orders. So it is not like you can table pounce someone who didn’t act yet.

Also it is not like a bunch of turns passed. he did usa/uk only.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

wut?

Yeah you can rewind the clock. 1) he can scramble vs usa who sent lone transports to take denmark to begin with. Opponent never asked for scramble orders or sent anything to begin with.

I draw two conclusions from this

1. neither player knew or remembered the scramblings
2. bob didn’t know know the canal rules

Plus it is common courtesy to ask for scramble orders. So it is not like you can table pounce someone who didn’t act yet.

Also it is not like a bunch of turns passed. he did usa/uk only.

Bob didn’t know about the canal rules, but Gazza didn’t know about proper aplication of scrambling rules. That said, Gazza has probably done those moves BECAUSE OF TRIPLE A BUG not taking into account scrambling if territory containing the AB is not attacked…If allies just redo entirely their turn, then Germany WILL end up being taken by a single transport since USA CAN send enough units in sz112 to prevent the scrambling.

So these 2, if they want to continue and have a good game, should say something like this (IMO): USA can redo his turn as he wishes, but there is no taking Germany this turn. Period. This could work, and they still have a good game.

[Cow]

Honestly gazza, you should take back denmark/norway/berlin, because you did not send air to cover it and he could scramble.

He was never asked for scramble orders, common courtesy.

If you really want to insist on whatever then 2 fighters vs 2 fighter and a tactical. If your transport makes it through then you win. Simple as that.

So yeah either rewind that or fight for your win. I got to agree with bob, but this is a little dramatic.

[Cow]

I don’t think this can be blamed on a triple a bug… I mean triple a bugs ruined a bunch of my games especially during testing, but this wouldn’t ruin anything.

I mean if I popped open battlemaps to do italy and saw germany taken… I would be like wait wah? I didn’t get to scramble what?

So yeah you still end up asking for scramble orders either way. Just because it doesn’t pop up doesn’t maen you can’t roll it out on the forum and edit in the results.

In a live game, usually I end up just adding a transport german transport to the water and fly air over it, which would activate the scramble orders.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

He was never asked for scramble orders, common courtesy.

DUH….man, could you actually think about it and/or read the entire thread before saying something that stupid ? How could he have asked for scrambling orders since the program DOESN’T PROPOSE THE SCRAMBLING OPTION ??? (this is the bug we are talking about).

So don’t put all the blame on Gazza, he just did what he thought was legal, AND THE TRIPLE A PROGRAM allowed it !  That’s why we’re talking about the bug.

[Cow]

I am just happy triple a is around, because I tried typing my moves out and following what my opponents are doing with battlemaps… that didn’t work out for me, ended up being too much effort to do one thing, and every now n then someone moves a fighter an extra space and then there is a giant debate about a fighter… the worst is debating the existence of an infantry. I can’t handle that.

Anyway, some people do use triple a as just an advanced version of battlemaps. They just roll on the forum and edit all the results, you still save time from typing out all the movements and checking your opponent, the history tab is cool like that.

Anyway the fact remains, Bob would scramble, does Gazza want to send 2 fighters? If yes, then do it. Otherwise, you should take it back.
~
The program should ask for scrambling orders, you are right. However the player should know the rules too.

Keep in mind, you only get asked scramble orders when you click done on combat move. He did not escort his transports, so he didn’t know about the scramble… if scramble options popped up when he moved into combat… he would lose his transports in a lobby game (he could close the program and redo his stuff from the last save posted playing by forum).

Still as bob points out, the first two transports from america were not escorted, neither were the uk transport.

[Cow]

I understand the known bugs as of right now can be a pain. For now I recommend putting a transport in the sea zone to trigger the program’s scramble orders or rolling it out on a forum.

Just because there is a bug, don’t mean you don’t escort your stuff, that is exploiting.

TripleA doesn’t tell you the rules, that is why there is a testing process.  There are 205 pages of FAQ for global,  this is a pretty extreme game so you have to be flexible as a player when things come up.

205 pages of FAQ.

Anyway, I don’t blame the program when I don’t know the rules or misunderstand the rules. I blame the rules.

[Cow]

So 205 pages of faq, rulebook, alpha1-3 errata. I remember my first game of global, we spent half an hour trying to figure out if west india made 2 ipc for uk or uk pacific, the game just came out at the time and no one had an answer.

Right now no one knows if america makes 15 or 17 for 1941. So yeah, blaming the rules sounds better.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

I am just happy triple a is around

So am i. I have never criticized Triple A, i’m very happy to have it, and i’ve spent countless hours in my life, playing with previous versions.
Global is the most complex AA Game ever, and i think it’s just normal that Triple A is not perfect yet.

@Cow:

Anyway the fact remains, Bob would scramble, does Gazza want to send 2 fighters? If yes, then do it. Otherwise, you should take it back.

This is over simplistic point of view man…Please take a SERIOUS look at the maps.
If USA is allowed to redo his turn, then he’s going to send a Destroyer, an aircraft carrier and 2 planes in sz112. And then, what do you think will happen ? Germany’s odds to cancel the attack are very poor…so the USA will take Den and Norw, and UK will take Germany !  That’s why i have been advocating for a gentlemen’s agreement in this situation.

@Cow:

The program should ask for scrambling orders, you are right. However the player should know the rules too.
Keep in mind, you only get asked scramble orders when you click done on combat move. He did not escort his transports, so he didn’t know about the scramble…

Here we are touching the crux of the problem , and by saying this, you’re clearly demonstrating that you haven’t understood it.

Question for you (maybe that will help you understand my position in this thread) :
What if Gazza has, in LOCAL GAME MODE, made all his moves, checked that everything was OK, and then posted his real turn ?? That doesn’t make him a cheater, someone who would want to take back his moves…He thought he was allowed to do that, and so he did. Had the program worked properly, while he was on local game mode, he would have realized that his plan had to be modified because of scrambling possibilities, and the final turn posted would have reflected this, don’t you think ?

Please, take the time to understand all what i said before answering. And keep in mind that Gazza here is cool, he’s not being agressive or of bad faith, and he’s willing to find any solution that would suit both player.

But you know, he could have had this attitude and say : we are both adult players, we have agreed to play with a program, and as far as i’m concerned, i’ve done nothing wrong.  So my moves stand, and Germay is mine. Period. It’s not my problem if the program has a bug…

So Cow, i understand that you are “pro” Bobgordon, but please, when judging this situation in this game, take all the parameters into account.

[Cow]

You never redo whole turns especially after battles were conducted. You just take back a few moves, he didn’t know bob could scramble and if bob is a good friend, bam he’ll let him undo it. simple as that.

What is wrong with keeping things simple. Either escort the transports with fighters or put it back in london. What is wrong with that? would to redo the normandy battle without 3 usa air units to escort the usa transports, west germany probably wouldn’t scramble vs usa, when uk only has 2 fighters and west germany only has 3. So he’d fight UK where he has 95% odds to defend.

Either fight or back to london you go. Then play on. It’s just that simple.

The program does not teach the rules.

[Cow]

west germany would not scramble 112. he would scramble 113.

[Cow]

sz 112 usa just needs need to send something to cover those boats, or back to london you go.

sz 113 west germany would scramble, you either send uk’s available escorts which is just 2 fighters and duke it out against 2 fighter 1 tactical, or back to london you go.

These are compromise scenarios. Compromises are lose lose situations. 1) gazza gets his boats back, but cannot use them, back to london they go. 2) gazza fights it out, not the best odds, but it is a reasonable battle to conduct, the risk is fairly minimal, 2 fighters 1 transport 1 infantry, the reward all of germany’s income and germany, the odds 4-5%, 1/20 games (you want to win or draw), it is not an insane move or request to make. You should have to fight for your victories and be allowed to do that.

Just pick one and go with it.

[Cow]

As a player, I don’t like free kills just because someone doesn’t know a rule, so it goes back. Also I don’t like prevent someone from attacking if he knew the rules so I allow him to put something to escort.

I don’t know. This is interesting though.

I know you can’t scramble adjacent zones in out of box, it came in an alpha update.

[Axisplaya]

@Cow:

sz 112 usa just needs need to send something to cover those boats, or back to london you go.

sz 113 west germany would scramble, you either send uk’s available escorts which is just 2 fighters and duke it out against 2 fighter 1 tactical, or back to london you go.

These are compromise scenarios. Compromises are lose lose situations. 1) gazza gets his boats back, but cannot use them, back to london they go. 2) gazza fights it out, not the best odds, but it is a reasonable battle to conduct, the risk is fairly minimal, 2 fighters 1 transport 1 infantry, the reward all of germany’s income and germany, the odds 4-5%, 1/20 games (you want to win or draw), it is not an insane move or request to make. You should have to fight for your victories and be allowed to do that.

Just pick one and go with it.

This is my last attempt at trying to get some logical conversation with you…

Just try to answer these simple questions :

1- what is the logic in letting USA send 2 more fighters to get a bad odds battle in sz112 (so basically CHANGE HIS MOVES), but refusing that he add the dd and the AC, which would suddenly make odds for this battle favorable to USA ?

2- Why UK would be forced to attack from sz113 while they could do it from sz114, thus not allowing any scramble ?

3- You make some statements that, in your head, are worth gold and are THE unique reference one should accept… Are you apointed by Larry Harris to judge gaming situations between players ?
Example, you said : “You never redo whole turns especially after battles were conducted. You just take back a few moves”.
Why is that ? What is the problem if no dices have been rolled ? What are “a few moves” ? 1 move, 2 moves, some moves but not others and all this according to Cow ? (like ok for adding 2 planes, but not a dd and a carrier ?!!???)

4- Also, you didn’t say anything at all about all what i said about Gazza’s legitimate point of view (he could have test his turn in Local mode, see that it was ok and then post it).  So do you intentionally just ignore anything that can possibly weaken your statements ?

[Cow]

Ah thought uk’s naval base was damaged and not repaired, touche.

He did attack from 113 and 114 for some reason. I guess if gazza knew what he was doing bob would have lost. Bob be dead then.

Still it is a crappy win for gazza to get, I mean bob didn’t know the canal rules, you may as well have told him and had this discussion before the start of russia’s turn and see a real game.

[Cow]

Either way, everyone learning rules, learning game all good. The whole round rule for canals from before was stupid, glad they made the change, one less thing to remember.

[Cow]

hell I even forgot you had to hold the canals for a whole round in aa50. I think revised germany would try to take suez and then japan would go into the med on the same round. But in aa50 japan couldn’t take suez and italy bail out of there same round. That was always weird and people would forget.

[Cow]

I don’t play with myself in local mode, I just play, I don’t take long unless I am faced with a tough decision. I prefer live games for this reason.

Still it is like, well bob f’d up germany’s purchase by not spamming inf for germany, because he didn’t know the current canal rules. Then USA / UK both f’d up because of scramble.

So w/e who cares. bob can table pouce, scramble and no opportunity for gaza. better to just undo it and play on. Do you really want to win this way, like really? Invest all this time just to drop 1 inf on germany because a guy didn’t know the rules?  That is so silly.

[Cow]

Axisplaya we have different perspectives.

I value the game experience. Why would anyone want to play someone who leaves their 60 ipc collecting capital empty? That is really boring and too anti climatic, all the build up for a showdown and then nothing. Probably was best to just have told bob before russia went.

Either way, bob is gone.

Still, this is such a weird scenario. You guys are way too polarized. Point a gun to my head, scramble orders were never called, bob scrambles and fires :roll 1@4 2@3: those xports are dead back to london they go.

Still don’t understand why getting the xports back to london is such a hard compromise to make.

It is very logical, both players didn’t know a specific rule, so why not just pretend nothing happened and move forward? This is such a stupid thing to fight over.