Anti-Balistic-Missile-Defense

[yourbuttocks]

First of all, it is a series of systems, so a lot of it would be ready in less than a decade.

Second, if we waited a decade to start the system It would simply add to the costs. (Because all the programs we have going would be put on hold, and that costs money to maintain them even if they aren’t going forward.)

[Guest]

Horten, even though the USSR does not exist anymore,
russia is its successor state, and has taken the “responsibilies” of the former USSR, like the debts and treaties.
That’s the way international law works. Just imagine russia would have said they would not take the USSRs responsibilities (like the USSR did with the russia of the czar): you will find yourself in deep political and economical isolation in less than a second.

[TG Moses VI]

“Second, China does have 400 nukes, but only 20 ICBMs.”

How can we be sure of this? China is already taking steps to modernize its military (preparing to invade Taiwan, which is really more trouble than its worth) and ten years from now (when this so-called missile defense is ready) that number can increase exponentially, especially with Russia selling many of its weapons and technology to China. Also, most of the test (if not all) so far have only been one missile, and the success rate isn’t exactly 100%. How can we be sure we can even shoot down 20? What’s not to say China won’t accelerate their missile program once they know what they have to deal against?

“Why have we never used Nukes in the past? It wasn’t for fear of killing millions. It was for fear of millions of us being killed. If that fear is eliminated, our Goverment will throw them at Small Countries like darts on a dartboard.”

Well that is a bit of exaggeration. I would hope that the American people and its elected rulers would have enough sense not to. Also, how many of the these small countries have the technology and resources to develop a effective ICBM program? Not very many. Even with a Missile Defense System, there is still the serious threat that an NBCE weapon (most of them that can be manufactured and hidden quite easily) can be detonated inside of the United States.

“Horten, even though the USSR does not exist anymore,
russia is its successor state, and has taken the “responsibilies” of the former USSR, like the debts and treaties.
That’s the way international law works. Just imagine russia would have said they would not take the USSRs responsibilities (like the USSR did with the russia of the czar): you will find yourself in deep political and economical isolation in less than a second.”

Even if this is true, there’s still the fact that under the provisions of the treaty the US or USSR could pull out at any time as long as they gave an advance warning. “It shall give notice of its decision to the other Party six months prior to withdrawal from the Treaty. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events the notifying Party regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests.” - Article XV. I believe the dissolving of the Soviet Union, rogue nations developing their own nuclear weapons system, and Sept. 11th would qualify as extraordinary events.

And lets not forget that Russia supports the movement toward a Missile Program. “The Russians’ future is with us, and they know it. In addition to agreeing to cut their nuclear arsenal, they just signed up to become a junior member of NATO. Even with Putin-a former KGB officer-at the helm, they view us as strategic partners in the real war of the 21st century: the war on terrorism. The ABM Treaty has no place in such a world. And virtually all realize that the real threat for both countries comes from rogue regimes such as North Korea, Iran and Iraq.”

[Guest]

@TG:

Even if this is true, there’s still the fact that under the provisions of the treaty the US or USSR could pull out at any time as long as they gave an advance warning. “It shall give notice of its decision to the other Party six months prior to withdrawal from the Treaty
…
And virtually all realize that the real threat for both countries comes from rogue regimes such as North Korea, Iran and Iraq.”

For the first, well, i only know roughly what’s in there, so if there is a clause to leave the treaty, then i guess it’s all fine….

And if i was Horten, i would now be very very very upset, that you say that every single citizen of North Korea, Iran and Iraque is a rogue :) :) :)

[TG Moses VI]

Why not pull a Bush and call them the "Axis of Evil?
"
But seriously, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea (and probably some others I forgot to mention) do pose the greatest threat of developing long range missile systems capable of hiting the US. I wouldn’t call all or maybe even most of their citizens “rogues” (don’t know where you got that from me, since I have well-being friends from around those places), but their existing regime isn’t exactly on the best of terms with the US (and you can quote me on that). Anyways, these “rogue” countries are what the Missile System should be intent on stopping, not countries like USSR (though we have their support) and China which can produce ICBMs in fairly large stockpiles that they can overwhelming the system. But the true terror is India and Pakistan. If they do go to full scale war (and right now is the closest they been at it) and fire their nukes, the massive radiation fallout carried by the East Winds will spread across the my side of the West Coast and cause cancer to a innumerable amount of citizens. So far, they is not very much we can do about that, except evacuate the whole Western Seaboard.

[djensen]

I have a little story about missle defense. Years ago (well not that many years) when I was in high school, I was considering the Air Force Academy for college. So after my Junior year I was asked to come visit the campus in Colorado with a large group of other candidates. For a week, we went to sample lectures, toured the campus, ate the food, all the good stuff and non of the military stuff. They were very convincing but after visiting I knew that the military was not for me. Not that it was bad, it just was not for me.

But I digress. I went to one sample lecture/lab about coherent light, aka LASERs. It was a nice little lab where they did plenty of demonstrations including one that demonstrated that over great distances, laser light becomes less coherent and eventually begins to spread. The Air Force Professor when on the explain that this is why Star Wars would not work.

I’m not exactly certain how the government and military intend to execute missle defense but if it is like Star Wars, then we’ll spend billions to discover the idea does not work. Furthermore, the government has cut of funding and disbanded one of their best think tanks (can’t remember the name) so where are these missile defense ideas coming from? My guess is dumb generals who do not understand physics.

[HortenFlyingWing]

well said above ^^^

"Horten, even though the USSR does not exist anymore,
russia is its successor state, and has taken the “responsibilies” of the former USSR, like the debts and treaties. "

Debts, we’re still giving them money! The treaty is extinct, and I think Moses made a better argument than I.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@F_alk:

And if i was Horten, i would now be very very very upset, that you say that every single citizen of North Korea, Iran and Iraque is a rogue :) :) :)

I don’t get it! Why would I be upset?

Well for the sake of making this post have substance, let me rant about Bush. You don’t tell an enemy that you have plans to attack him. Furthermore, Iran and North Korea were slowly becoming more friendly to the west (screw Iraq…) and calling them an enemy as if we are some sort of moral judge made our leader look like a moron.

Now Iraq…a change is in order there…but you don’t need to announce an attack, but I bet the army guys want a full scale war instead of just killing of Saddam. Now he is hiding.

[TG Moses VI]

Yeah, Iran and North Korea are slowly begining to realize (like the Russians and the Chinese) how much better it is for them to support us then to be against us. But Bush calling them the Axis of Evil, that just worsens the situation between the countries. (Well, except for Iraq Regime that’s wants us dead after Desert Storm. But Saddam can only live so long).

[Yanny]

But, whats to stop us from Nuking Iraq? Mainly its Russia’s still potent supply of ICBMs. If that weren’t there, or the threat was eliminated, we would of Nuked Sadam long ago.

[bossk]

I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to be known as the president that irradiated an entire nation. Truman still gets ridiculed for authorizing droping nukes on Japan. It’s not the best plan for a leader that wants to keep good international relations.

[TG Moses VI]

Nah, nukes aren’t mere toys to be played with. I, too, wouldn’t want to be known as the President that killed 100,000s (maybe even millions) of civilians just to get one man. It’s not worth it. At least Truman had a valid reason, Bush really doesn’t. Convential weapons still work just as well. Give me this here sniper rifle, a ticket to Iraq, a 6-pack, clear shot of Saddam, and I’ll get rid of him for you).

[Guest]

@HortenFlyingWing:

@F_alk:

And if i was Horten, i would now be very very very upset, that you say that every single citizen of North Korea, Iran and Iraque is a rogue :) :) :)

I don’t get it! Why would I be upset?

Well, you get upset when i talk of “most americans”, which is clearly allowing for exemptions. You should then of course get upset, when someone states that there are rogue states, which does not allow that explicitly for exemptions :)

[TG Moses VI]

Well you have to look at how the words are used. I said the Rouge Regimes (ie Iraq and the others I mentioned). However, that doesn’t mean all of the citizens or even most of them were rouges. Take Nazi Germany for instance. We all knew that most of the high ranking Nazi regime was bad (ie Hitler, Gobbles, Herman Goering, Rudolph Hess, ect). However does this mean all or even most of the German people were bad? Of course not. Same goes with Iraq (just because Saddam is a bad), doesn’t mean the people are.

[HortenFlyingWing]

@TG:

Yeah, Iran and North Korea are slowly begining to realize (like the Russians and the Chinese) how much better it is for them to support us then to be against us. But Bush calling them the Axis of Evil, that just worsens the situation between the countries. (Well, except for Iraq Regime that’s wants us dead after Desert Storm. But Saddam can only live so long).

Exactly…you don’t make a statement like that! Especially one so carefully constructed to invoke hate.

[Guest]

@TG:

Well you have to look at how the words are used. I said the Rouge Regimes (ie Iraq and the others I mentioned). However, that doesn’t mean all of the citizens or even most of them were rouges. Take Nazi Germany for instance. We all knew that most of the high ranking Nazi regime was bad (ie Hitler, Gobbles, Herman Goering, Rudolph Hess, ect). However does this mean all or even most of the German people were bad? Of course not. Same goes with Iraq (just because Saddam is a bad), doesn’t mean the people are.

nods
Hmhmmm,
that is my stand as well, and to be more precise on my stand:
you can’t avoid prejudices, but you can give each and every individuum the chance to show that your prejudice is wrong. Especially when officially sanctioned, you have to be careful: there, even if statistics say you are right, the sanctions can be abused by prejudical hatred (like mentioned in the racial profiling thread). The way along a road always begins with the first step, so make sure that the road is not the road of hate, ignorance and violence (for officially sanctioned “racism” (<- in the lack of a better word))

And even though it doesn’t fit well into this thread, but better into …which one was it… shrug one of the others where i post more often, a small anekdote which happened to me:
We went to a local pub, to see the match Germany-USA. I convinced some of my colleagues to come with me and watch it. I sat down and watched, fevering for my team. Behind me there were some “natives”, one of them occasionally shouting “Deutschland” and raising his arm to the Hitler greet (sp?). I was really annoyed by that and close to telling him that i take that as a personal attack/insult.
Even though that probably was a joke, that’s were i am really sensitive.
(that is some of the occasions were he didn’t know of the bad feelings he caused in me, towards him, and still he did quite massively!)

[TG Moses VI]

I can agree on you. Lets take a look at Iraq. A lot of economic sanctions (some of it based on Western racism) that the UN imposed on Iraq after Desert Storm served as a crippling blow. To make matters worst, you have Saddam running around spending the peoples’ money to rebuild his shattered army, research NBC, and build palaces and publics arts (mostly Mosaics of him and “Satan” [ie George Bush]). What does this lead to? Massive starvation of the people. Already thousands of children die in Iraq each month (not sure of the exact numbers, can anyone clarify?) due to lack of sufficient food, clean water, and even the most basic hospital necessities. What does this breed? Even more hatred and prejudice toward the United States (Saddam is good at manipulating the masses).

PS: About you’re little soccer gathering, I wish we had some Germans half as fevered as the ones over there. The ones I know are like, “So we made it into the semi-finals, no biggie.” (And this is really an insult to the US team, who’s appearance in the semi-finials would’ve been a major biggie no doubt). Just no Hitler signs, okay?

[HortenFlyingWing]

@TG:

I can agree on you. Lets take a look at Iraq. A lot of economic sanctions (some of it based on Western racism) that the UN imposed on Iraq after Desert Storm served as a crippling blow. To make matters worst, you have Saddam running around spending the peoples’ money to rebuild his shattered army, research NBC, and build palaces and publics arts (mostly Mosaics of him and “Satan” [ie George Bush]). What does this lead to? Massive starvation of the people. Already thousands of children die in Iraq each month (not sure of the exact numbers, can anyone clarify?) due to lack of sufficient food, clean water, and even the most basic hospital necessities. What does this breed? Even more hatred and prejudice toward the United States (Saddam is good at manipulating the masses).

PS: About you’re little soccer gathering, I wish we had some Germans half as fevered as the ones over there. The ones I know are like, “So we made it into the semi-finals, no biggie.” (And this is really an insult to the US team, who’s appearance in the semi-finials would’ve been a major biggie no doubt). Just no Hitler signs, okay?

Iraq’s economy is recovering thoguh, so i’m not sure if so many are dying.

[TG Moses VI]

True, but it’s already been a decade (an a decade of slow improvement for Iraq). I think it’s time to completely remove such sanctions.

Anyways, I did a bit researching and here’s what I found:

More than 250 people, mostly children under 5, die each day because of sanctions, according to a UNICEF report released in April 1998 (Each month 5,000 to 6,000 children die as a result of the sanctions). More than one-and-a- half million faceless, nameless, and relatively unreported brown people have been killed by the sanctions imposed in 1990. That’s about 5 percent of Iraq’s pre-sanctions population. In percentage terms, that is equivalent to about 13 million dead Americans. The World Food Programme says more than 1.2 million Iraqi children died due to the embargo between August 1990 and August 1997 – a generation sanctioned into nonexistence.

The per capita income of Iraq has gone from $2,900 a year to $60 a year. A can of powdered milk costs as much as one month of a doctor’s salary. Surgery is conducted routinely without anesthesia. Sanitation facilities are abysmal. Fifty percent of the rural population does not have access to potable water, compared to a 92 percent access rate in 1990. The majority of Iraqis has been on a semi-starvation diet for the last few years, according to the World Health Organization. Infant mortality has increased six-fold since 1990. The once exemplary and free public health system has been decimated. Inflation has increased astronomically. According to the Food and Agricultural Organization, the price of wheat flour in August 1995 was 11,677 times higher (1.16 million percent) than in July 1990. Crime has skyrocketed.

“In a small grocery store in a poor area of Baghdad early one morning I watched a child of perhaps five…proudly doing a terribly important errand: he bought one egg. A tray of 30 eggs exceeds a university professor’s monthly salary… As he left, the child dropped the egg. He fell to the floor, frantically trying to pick the shell, yolk and white, with his small hands, tears streaming down his face.”

Seems sad, doesn’t it? Even in present day still thousands are starving to death each month.

“History! Read it and weep!” - Bokonon

[HortenFlyingWing]

1998 is way different from 2002. one can now easily buy computers and printers in Iraq, and people are seeming to forget that Iraq started a war, lost it, and doesn’t allow arms inspections.

The sanctions should end the moment Saddam is out of power…one could only hope we accelerate the process, but his sons aren’t any better. Someone outside of Saddam’s family should be put in power.