Does Sealion break the Game(Europe Only)

[pusfilledwart]

to answer the question, no. Its very simple,really–Sealion does not have to be done. Unless you are playing for money,why do you need to end a game in 10 minutes that you spent a hundred bucks on and 30 minutes setting up? There is no rule saying you have to do it. Just dont and then the game isnt broken. See how easy that was?

[jim010]

It would be easier to bid.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@pusfilledwart:

to answer the question, no. Its very simple,really–Sealion does not have to be done. Unless you are playing for money,why do you need to end a game in 10 minutes that you spent a hundred bucks on and 30 minutes setting up? There is no rule saying you have to do it. Just dont and then the game isnt broken. See how easy that was?

I think that destroys the spirit of the game

[pusfilledwart]

I think that destroys the spirit of the game

maybe for tournament or sentimental players but not for the average player. Larry said he included the potential for Sealion,so there is that element to the game, but there is no guarantee that it will work every time so saying the game is broken turns out to be wrong. I read somewhere that G2 Sealion will have 90% success rate. I think that is an exaggeration.

[jim010]

It’s not turn 2, it is turn 3, and I don’t have it at 90%, but I do have it at 80% +.

That’s 4 out of 5 games.

[Redjac]

Jim010,

Is your G3 Sea Lion attack a done deal? Are there no buys in the game for the UK that will defeat Sea Lion? I hope this game does not have a “best” move that will always be done by Germany vs. the UK for the first 3 turns.

Instead of infantry, is it possible to buy subs/ships/planes to destroy the German navy before it attacks? Say 2 Tactical Bombers to match up the fighters and a destroyer? Or a bunch of subs to attack the fleet near the coast?

It seems wrong not be able to have some decent chance of defense when you know what is coming at you. I have only played the Global Game but the attacks you are talking about should work in both games for Germany.

[jim010]

Hah!  I’m full of it.  Wrong settings

Here they are again.

*note - for UK I say inf, but it is likley inf/art.  2 inf defending is better then 1 tank, so I’ll ignore tank buys.
Worst case scenario for the German is:

Germany  (worst)
11 inf, 4 tanks, 5 art, 1fht, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR (assuming horrific losses in air at sea, and France was won w/ 1 tank)

vs

UK (best)
21 inf, 4 fht, 1 tac

Germany wins 7% w/ commonly 1 unit

Average case scenario for Germany:

10 inf, 6 tanks, 4 art, 2 fht, 2 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR

vs

UK (average)
20 inf, 4 fht

Germany wins 71% w/ commonly 4 - 6 units

Best case scenario for Germany:

11 inf, 3 art, 8 tanks, 4 fht, 3 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR

vs

UK (average)
20 inf, 4 fht

Geramny wins 99% w/ commonly 10 - 13 units

That is the math, and it is repeatable, unless I missed something.

Next turn Germnany has over $80 to spend, and the Allies have lost $28/turn.

[jim010]

Jim010,

Is your G3 Sea Lion attack a done deal? Are there no buys in the game for the UK that will defeat Sea Lion? I hope this game does not have a “best” move that will always be done by Germany vs. the UK for the first 3 turns.

Instead of infantry, is it possible to buy subs/ships/planes to destroy the German navy before it attacks? Say 2 Tactical Bombers to match up the fighters and a destroyer? Or a bunch of subs to attack the fleet near the coast?

It seems wrong not be able to have some decent chance of defense when you know what is coming at you. I have only played the Global Game but the attacks you are talking about should work in both game for Germany.

Try it, but I don’t think it would work.  You are building a fleet that has to withstand 1 - 3 sb, 1 CR, 1 BB, 1 CV and the planes.  My planes won’t be needed on London, as you didn’t buy ground units - not will I need as many ground units, so they can be transported elsewhere.  I might not even bother buying as many TTs.

Buying planes won’t help, as 3 defending inf is better than 1 defending fht.

I will say that I’m not 100% sure that the game is broken, but I do know that I don’t want allies.

[JamesAleman]

Are you convinced that the axis automatically win after UK falls?

I still say its a race to get city 5 before the U.S. stages too much in Gibraltar. I argue that taking UK is the same as taking India in Pacific1940. Its still up to the U.S. to win or lose the game. If its a close game, then no, taking UK does not break the game.

If you always win as the axis after a UK fall, then yes it would be broken. But I believe the game still has to be played out. Here is why:

Lets say you take UK with 10 units….Lets say you maintain 60 IPCs or more as Germany. How do you take Russia, with 20 land units used in UK, we agree you lost 10 of them or 30 IPCs in value. You captured around 30 IPCs. The axis are now up 8 IPCs and allies down 28 IPCs. However, you are not in position to engage Russia. They should be stacked in E. Poland waiting to hit Slovakia turn 4 with 32+units. You will have 92 (52+30captured+10NOs) to spend on round4. You can place potentially 3 units in Germany, 10 in W.Germany, 10 in France, and 10 units in London(99 IPCs if you built infantry at each). Now that you have UK, you will have to build there to hold it in later rounds. Which factories do you place your 92 IPCs of units at? Unless you had Italy moving to Germany from round1, you may place 92 dollars in units, only to lose your capital for 1 round before you liberate it. Lets say you had enough to defend Germany, then the game looks like this:

Lets agree its the end of round 4, the allies have 67+28=95+2R.inf and the axis have 52+15=67+20NOs=87(assumes 2 Italy NOs). (Without Egypt axis will have 82)

You are not only being outproduced, but what you do produce has to engage Russia and protect 4 major factory sites: Rome,W.Germany,N. Italy ,and London. You also have to protect 4 potential major factory sites: Norway,Sweden,Belgium, and S. France. Thats not mentioning the minor factory in Normandy or the potential site at Denmark. Sounds like a game still.

We can assume you will eventually take Egypt with Italy as UK can not produce.

It cost the US 14 IPCs to place 1 art and 1 inf in Gibraltar. It costs the axis 21 IPCs to place 1 inf and 1 art. in 3 strategic zones(France,Rome, and Finland) able to counterattack an allied landing in Continental Europe. Add 6 more IPCs to hold London. Therefor, 14 US IPCs require 21 (if you don’t care to hold London) or 27 axis IPCs to counter. Does it still look like the axis have it won?

[pusfilledwart]

@jim010:

It’s not turn 2, it is turn 3, and I don’t have it at 90%, but I do have it at 80% +.

That’s 4 out of 5 games.

so every time you play you will do the same thing? how fun is that?  :roll:

[Arminius Germanicus]

Hi guys,
finally i managed it to register here in this fine forum  :-D

So from my point of view Sea Lion (if its really sucsessful) is not breaking the game.
I agree that it will be very hard to crack up Russia in the east and defend against the USA in west , north or south. I only played AAE40 once and my Sea Lion was totally wiped out by the UK fleet in round 2. I had extrem bad luck with the dice so only damaged his CV, leaving my transports in the baltic only one transport operation left before they sunk to the ground. But besides that I dont see how my fleet should make it when UK gets it CV from gibraltar to UK sourrounding sea)

After that I saw no real chance to get into offensive against Russia (an experienced player) without riskin to much…

The only positve point was that Italy could walk relative freely in the med an controlled nearly all of it. But after the US taking Gibraltar back ITALY had to go very defensive from that point and become sitting ducks like the germans, so I surrendered start of Round 7.

@Jim010,
I dont know how you could make it to actually land (invade) with your transports on G3. In my game I bought as GER 1CV , 1TR and a Sub on G1. on G2 I moved my ships out of the baltic and they were crushed there at once by the UK fleet. I think if UK concentrates on defeating the german fleet they can prevent much better the sea lion operation than with building Inf units in UK. UK player build 2 Cruisers in UK1. Hit me with 3 Cruisers (i let the one in front of baltic/norway along with the french cruiser escape - thats was a possible failure in my 1 turn) 3 Planes 1 Tactical 2 Destroyers and the CV against a Battleship (damaged) a CV with 2 Fighters, a cruiser and a sub.

[jim010]

so every time you play you will do the same thing? how fun is that?

:?

Every time I play, I play to win.

[jim010]

I dont know how you could make it to actually land (invade) with your transports on G3. In my game I bought as GER 1CV , 1TR and a Sub on G1. on G2 I moved my ships out of the baltic and they were crushed there at once by the UK fleet.

You can take out all UK ships except the Gibraltar fleet.  His counterattack will then only be 3 fht, 1 tac, 1 DD, 1 CV.  UK will lose that, and there goes UK’s planes for the London defense.

[jim010]

I’ve had these discussions defending the India Crush.  Now Larry is trying to fix Pacific b/c of the Inida Crush.

Make your arguements, but I play test my ideas.  I’ll let others defend it here.

Fire up a game if you have a counter.  I’ll have room for another game in a few days.

[Arminius Germanicus]

You can take out all UK ships except the Gibraltar fleet.

Sure but the risk is higher to loose valuable units.
I nearly sunk the hole fleet without damage in G1.
Both Battleships + Escort, with 1 survinig sub in each SZ.
Only my sub wich tried to sink the DD+Trans in Canada failed.
The one west cost UK i Ignored, try to take out both could pobarbly end up take out nothing.
Or didnt you attack the on @ canada ?

But I see your point, you dont care about aircraft losses in G1,
I do so because I thought I will need as much aircraft i can gather to attack london on G3.

But ifUK player build 1 Cruiser 1DD & 1 Sub in UK1 I think the Geran fleet is doomed in UK2.
UK can loose all ships+aircraft excet the DD or cruiser to block s lion for another turn.
GER wll run of time if not everything happens like planed.

[jim010]

But ifUK player build 1 Cruiser 1DD & 1 Sub in UK1 I think the Geran fleet is doomed in UK2.
UK can loose all ships+aircraft excet the DD or cruiser to block s lion for another turn.
GER wll run of time if not everything happens like planed.

There’s no blocking, as I’ll be in sz112.  And by the odds, I’ll eat through the UK fleet and still land with less units, as I don’t need them all anymore.

I’ll tell you what.  I’ll play out a game on this thread - no luck.  Pip counts only.  3 pips rounded up.  I’ll post later tonight.  Someone will have to play the counter, but I’m not playing out 50 responses, only 1 - the best you think.

Maybe I’m wrong and you’ll show me here.

[Arminius Germanicus]

There’s no blocking, as I’ll be in sz112.

I assumed your fleet is there but not the transports,
I would have them save in sz113.
So if the transports are in sz122 they are destroyed too
and there is indeed no need for blocking.

I think an G2 GERMAN fleet @ best (9hits)
1BB , 1CV + 2 FTR , 1CRU , 1DD & 1 Sub - and the transport fleet with 9 or 10 Transports.

UK to attack on UK2 (10-12 hits)
1CV , 1CRU , 2DD up to 4DD , 3 FRT , 1Tac & 1 Sub

OK written down it seems more than possible to take out the attacking fleet,
but if its down to the dice like I had no single hit with my fleet in the first round of combat while my opponent took out all my ships so i had to land the fighters….

Maybe i am so unsure about it because of this event happend to me…

Whatever, fact is if UK spend its money to build fleet in UK1 and failed to stop sea lion in the beginning (before GER can land troops in London) its very easy for GER to take over Britain, thats for sure.

I’ll play out a game on this thread - no luck.  Pip counts only.  3 pips rounded up.

Mhh sorry but i only checked half of that  :?
Damn noob I know  :-D

Maybe I’m wrong and you’ll show me here.

I dont really think so  :wink:

[jim010]

You count up the ‘hit dice’ and divide by 6.  That is the number of hits you get.

4 inf, 1 tank = 7 pips.

That’s 1 hit with 1 remainder.  Rounded, the remainder is 0, so only 1 hit.

[Latro]

What interests me most about this strategy is:

• The build order and place of the Kriegsmarine and how vulnerable it will be against possible UK air and or naval counter-attacks. The Germans will need as much fleet protection as they can get before buying all the vulnerable transports … but if there’s not enough threat of an early G2 operation Sealion, the UK can do a counter-attack build in UK1 without risking an early German landing and go for the Kriegsmarine during UK2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but buying 2 more tactical bombers for an air-strike on the Kriegsmarine (3 fighters, 3 tactical bombers) would basically negate any subs the Germans have left … this might actually have a very good chance killing the surface ships (at heavy losses) and whipping out all the transports, leaving just the subs. So Germany will have to make a careful balance between protection and transport during that first turn.

• How to handle the Soviet Union? I’ve never been a big fan of playing a passive defensive game as the Soviet Union, just stacking up infantry. With almost all of it’s IPC’s and active units tied up in the West, how would Germany deal with Soviet pre-emptive attacks along the entire front? It’s not that hard to have enough medium infantry stacks everywhere with enough airpower to assist where needed. Keep in mind that the Soviets have that NO that gives them 3 IPC extra for EACH original German territory taken (and none lost themselves) They can expect to gain very much additional buying power after turn 3 that way.

• Can Germany maintain an effective defence against US landings and still have enough IPC’s and units left to defeat the Soviet Union in the East. The biggest threat coming from the US (IMHO of course) is not massing for one very strong amphibious assault, but the economic drain coming from a new landing each turn (and gradually growing in strength as well). How much can Germany afford to “waste” on defending the West? … Buying 10 infantry each turn and the presence of the Luftwaffe for the counter-attacks to clear the beachheads will put a serious drain on the war effort.

• How quickly and strongly can Italy profit when the UK is crippled? If the UK chooses to accept the inevitable, concentrate what’s left of the fleet and go after the remaining Italian naval units and evacuate the royal air-force to Africa … can Italy overcome these obstacles with there very limited economy?

8-)

[jim010]

Well play out a game and find out.