Yeah, well, that’s my ego to you. You’e right though.
Italy a bad design
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@Blitz:
I completely agree that the game is broken. After all, not making the game so Italy can have a 50/50 chance of taking all of africa and making it very likely the Germans have to do it and regulating Italy to a subserviant role is completely broken. What were they thinking. It is like they were making a WW2 scenario in 1940 or something.
Oh and add the game being broken because of France too. I mean, really. France has no chance against Germany. Who would want to play France.
Heh, that you, Ed? We Axis players are just whining about the indefensibility of Italy. Damn history, we want this game to give the Italians a fair shake!
We want Brits to get a fair shake, when their entire atlantic fleet can be killed G1, and even the Med fleet can be killed with German planes, remaining Italian navy.
That is a lie. Germany is in no position to kill Gibraltar fleet and planes are needed to either attack London fleets or help paris attack. There is no counter. Hence it is broken.
No, the Med fleet can be attacked on G2 with planes in West Germany even if it’s DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac in the Med. In the event that some ships survive, the Italians can mop them up with a DD, CC and 2 ftrs.
That will be one costly attack for Germany
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@Blitz:
I completely agree that the game is broken. After all, not making the game so Italy can have a 50/50 chance of taking all of africa and making it very likely the Germans have to do it and regulating Italy to a subserviant role is completely broken. What were they thinking. It is like they were making a WW2 scenario in 1940 or something.
Oh and add the game being broken because of France too. I mean, really. France has no chance against Germany. Who would want to play France.
Heh, that you, Ed? We Axis players are just whining about the indefensibility of Italy. Damn history, we want this game to give the Italians a fair shake!
We want Brits to get a fair shake, when their entire atlantic fleet can be killed G1, and even the Med fleet can be killed with German planes, remaining Italian navy.
That is a lie. Germany is in no position to kill Gibraltar fleet and planes are needed to either attack London fleets or help paris attack. There is no counter. Hence it is broken.
No, the Med fleet can be attacked on G2 with planes in West Germany even if it’s DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac in the Med. In the event that some ships survive, the Italians can mop them up with a DD, CC and 2 ftrs.
That will be one costly attack for Germany
Perhaps, but aa 60-70 ipc Germany can easily replace the planes, while a 29 ipc UK can’t replace that loaded carrier. This leaved Britian with the following on the Europe board: Cruiser off Brazil, Destroyer off South Africa, Trans off Egypt(if moved to a safe place), and DD/CC in Pacific.
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@Blitz:
I completely agree that the game is broken. After all, not making the game so Italy can have a 50/50 chance of taking all of africa and making it very likely the Germans have to do it and regulating Italy to a subserviant role is completely broken. What were they thinking. It is like they were making a WW2 scenario in 1940 or something.
Oh and add the game being broken because of France too. I mean, really. France has no chance against Germany. Who would want to play France.
Heh, that you, Ed? We Axis players are just whining about the indefensibility of Italy. Damn history, we want this game to give the Italians a fair shake!
We want Brits to get a fair shake, when their entire atlantic fleet can be killed G1, and even the Med fleet can be killed with German planes, remaining Italian navy.
That is a lie. Germany is in no position to kill Gibraltar fleet and planes are needed to either attack London fleets or help paris attack. There is no counter. Hence it is broken.
No, the Med fleet can be attacked on G2 with planes in West Germany even if it’s DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac in the Med. In the event that some ships survive, the Italians can mop them up with a DD, CC and 2 ftrs.
That is extremely situational. The Italians rarely have any fleet left and proposing the Luftwaffe waste it’s few planes against the UK ships is just further advantaging the allies. As not only did their starting boats knock out Italy’s navy, but they also take some German planes with em along with any that died in the Atlantic. It is ridiculous anyway you try to justify it. And even after the Luftwaffe wipes it out, the Italians are supposed to rebuild a fleet making 10-12 a turn and take Africa? No way. Change is needed.
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@Blitz:
@Blitz:
I completely agree that the game is broken. After all, not making the game so Italy can have a 50/50 chance of taking all of africa and making it very likely the Germans have to do it and regulating Italy to a subserviant role is completely broken. What were they thinking. It is like they were making a WW2 scenario in 1940 or something.
Oh and add the game being broken because of France too. I mean, really. France has no chance against Germany. Who would want to play France.
Heh, that you, Ed? We Axis players are just whining about the indefensibility of Italy. Damn history, we want this game to give the Italians a fair shake!
We want Brits to get a fair shake, when their entire atlantic fleet can be killed G1, and even the Med fleet can be killed with German planes, remaining Italian navy.
That is a lie. Germany is in no position to kill Gibraltar fleet and planes are needed to either attack London fleets or help paris attack. There is no counter. Hence it is broken.
No, the Med fleet can be attacked on G2 with planes in West Germany even if it’s DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac in the Med. In the event that some ships survive, the Italians can mop them up with a DD, CC and 2 ftrs.
That is extremely situational. The Italians rarely have any fleet left and proposing the Luftwaffe waste it’s few planes against the UK ships is just further advantaging the allies. As not only did their starting boats knock out Italy’s navy, but they also take some German planes with em along with any that died in the Atlantic. It is ridiculous anyway you try to justify it. And even after the Luftwaffe wipes it out, the Italians are supposed to rebuild a fleet making 10-12 a turn and take Africa? No way. Change is needed.
You’re worried about the Italians building a fleet? They can actually make almost ipcs: 10 original, 5 no warships in Med, 1 Bulgaria, 1 Tunisia, 1 Syria or Jordan, 1 Kenya makes 19. Northern Italy even connects to paris, so they can take France for 4 ipcs+19. They can also take Sudan if the Brits emptied it. Meanwhile, after Alexandria falls, Britain won’t get any NO and will be making 29 ipcs and will only have a DD and CC in Europe. They have a worse rebuilding problem than Italy
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@Blitz:
@Blitz:
I completely agree that the game is broken. After all, not making the game so Italy can have a 50/50 chance of taking all of africa and making it very likely the Germans have to do it and regulating Italy to a subserviant role is completely broken. What were they thinking. It is like they were making a WW2 scenario in 1940 or something.
Oh and add the game being broken because of France too. I mean, really. France has no chance against Germany. Who would want to play France.
Heh, that you, Ed? We Axis players are just whining about the indefensibility of Italy. Damn history, we want this game to give the Italians a fair shake!
We want Brits to get a fair shake, when their entire atlantic fleet can be killed G1, and even the Med fleet can be killed with German planes, remaining Italian navy.
That is a lie. Germany is in no position to kill Gibraltar fleet and planes are needed to either attack London fleets or help paris attack. There is no counter. Hence it is broken.
No, the Med fleet can be attacked on G2 with planes in West Germany even if it’s DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac in the Med. In the event that some ships survive, the Italians can mop them up with a DD, CC and 2 ftrs.
That is extremely situational. The Italians rarely have any fleet left and proposing the Luftwaffe waste it’s few planes against the UK ships is just further advantaging the allies. As not only did their starting boats knock out Italy’s navy, but they also take some German planes with em along with any that died in the Atlantic. It is ridiculous anyway you try to justify it. And even after the Luftwaffe wipes it out, the Italians are supposed to rebuild a fleet making 10-12 a turn and take Africa? No way. Change is needed.
You’re worried about the Italians building a fleet? They can actually make almost ipcs: 10 original, 5 no warships in Med, 1 Bulgaria, 1 Tunisia, 1 Syria or Jordan, 1 Kenya makes 19. Northern Italy even connects to paris, so they can take France for 4 ipcs+19. They can also take Sudan if the Brits emptied it. Meanwhile, after Alexandria falls, Britain won’t get any NO and will be making 29 ipcs and will only have a DD and CC in Europe. They have a worse rebuilding problem than Italy
But we aren’t talking about the UK. We are talking about Italy. You must have missed the thread title. All of your proposed solutions for Italy are poorly thought out and are an attempt to grasp at straws. Italian Paris? That has huge implications for Germany not getting that money and positioning. No surface ships in Med.? Yeah Maybe if Luftwaffe devoted resources that we previously showed was too much and maybe if Italy got some good rolls. That original force in North Africa with no means of reinforcement is not going to do much. Hell in my game all they could do was take a few french IPC’s and run from egypt. US pushing towards gibralter also means ground units to keep rome safe is needed. There is not enough money for Italy to do anything but defend once it’s fleet gets destroyed.
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Yes, but we’re also talking about whether the game is broken due to Italy’s weakness, and I’m countering that by saying the UK is also weak.
How is it too much? You can even build planes in West Germany on G1 to add to the 5-7 planes remaining. Very good odds for Germany. If Germany doesn’t get Paris, it’s income reduces by 6 and it doesn’t get 19 ipcs. So? According to you, Italy needs that money more. Germany will still be making 55-65(plus 5 for Scandinavia NO) ipcs, way more than Russia. Britain is about as strong as Italy at this point, and Japan is on par with America(Japan can easily get up to 78 ipcs, the US will be at 82).
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Calvinhobbesliker,
1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn. Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game! I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!
2. Yes, its ahistorical that the Germans are killing 90% of the RCN Round 1, but how else did you expect the game designers to balance the game with the UK??? Traditionally, the UK always took a pounding from German navy and air G1 in every single iteration of Axis and Allies. But they still had a HUGE military advantage; just like the US, their main capital is not in range to be invaded and serves as an unstoppable base to send out units without reprisal. The UK is realistically never under attack or threat of invasion (unless they’re really dumb with bad UK1 builds), and they get to raid the Germans at will, pretty much like every other A+A game out there, with an insane re-built navy stack, for 2/3s of the game. Most AA50 games I played Germany usually had to abandon Russia due to UK raids into Poland or Leningrad from the Baltic, and I’d leave an inf stack in Germany just so the Brits couldn’t surprise-attack-end-the-game there.
Hell, the Denmark straits closed rule is the best thing I’ve seen in a long time towards balancing out UK’s insane naval advantage, especially for the Baltic (finally!). It was incredibly ahistorical that the British could send its entire navy through the Straits of Denmark without worrying about mines or Luftwaffe strikes.
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Calvinhobbesliker,
1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn. Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game! I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!
2. Yes, its ahistorical that the Germans are killing 90% of the RCN Round 1, but how else did you expect the game designers to balance the game with the UK??? Traditionally, the UK always took a pounding from German navy and air G1 in every single iteration of Axis and Allies. But they still had a HUGE military advantage; just like the US, their main capital is not in range to be invaded and serves as an unstoppable base to send out units without reprisal. The UK is realistically never under attack or threat of invasion (unless they’re really dumb with bad UK1 builds), and they get to raid the Germans at will, pretty much like every other A+A game out there, with an insane re-built navy stack, for 2/3s of the game. Most AA50 games I played Germany usually had to abandon Russia due to UK raids into Poland or Leningrad from the Baltic, and I’d leave an inf stack in Germany just so the Brits couldn’t surprise-attack-end-the-game there.
Hell, the Denmark straits closed rule is the best thing I’ve seen in a long time towards balancing out UK’s insane naval advantage, especially for the Baltic (finally!). It was incredibly ahistorical that the British could send its entire navy through the Straits of Denmark without worrying about mines or Luftwaffe strikes.
Well, it is historical that Italy lost or damaged most of their fleet at Taranto and that they did poorly in the Med theater. The game is already balanced with the entire RN getting sunk G1, we don’t need all of Africa falling to Italy as well
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OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment. I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy. I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this. With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off. Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack. The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover. The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibralter and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention speciflics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.
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Calvinhobbesliker,
1. You’re up on our Global game for Russia’s turn. Quit spending all your time whining about the Royal Navy and get to that PBF game! I’ll never get to mess around with the US’s 82 IPCs a turn at the rate its going!
We still have a game or not? We are in the middle of the UK turn.
If not, maybe some of the doom and gloomers about Italy on this thread would like to prove it???
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I’m in the middle of a game as the Axis. My G1 build was three subs and a bomber. (only 6 German subs in the box btw :x)
I put two subs into 106 against the Canadian fleet. I put three subs against the destroyer and transport in 109. I used a large portion of the German air force against the BB and DD in 110. I had more then enough air force and army to get the job done in France. I placed the three subs with the German surface fleet in 113. UK’s European economy loses 9 IPC’s. It’s a conservative play. :-P
At the UK turn my opponent is faced w/ a dilemma. He has a BS and 3 allied cruisers in harms way. His only DD is by Gibraltar. The subs are immune to attack unless he uses it. The German surface fleet is safe from attack as well. He has 6 subs, a BS, a cruiser, and the Luftwaffe to contend w/ the next turn with two more submarines over by Canada.
So my opponent picks up the aircraft carrier over by Gibraltar, taps it thoughtfully against the board a couple of times…… and then moves it to atack the subs in 109. The 56 IPC navy left up by England was too much to ignore for him. Still playing the game. Thought I’d share.
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OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment. I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy. I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this. With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off. Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack. The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover. The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.
Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.
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@Blitz:
OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment. I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy. I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this. With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off. Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack. The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover. The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.
Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.
Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar
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@Blitz:
OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment. I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy. I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this. With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off. Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack. The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover. The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.
Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.
Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar
Once again you operate under to many assumptions. Your assuming the Lufwaffte is successful G2 and you assume it’s a good idea to devote your planes there instead of elsewhere. You also assume the US is not moving these 3 rounds it takes for italy to get gibralter under control. To many “if” and “shoulds” for your suggestion to be a cure all counter.
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@Blitz:
@Blitz:
OK, now that I have finally caught up on this thread now I can make a comment. I don’t have Europe yet and haven’t played it yet, but I have played Axis and Allies enough that I do know how this can work out.
Calvinhobbesliker, I can’t remeber if he pointed this out orginally, has a good point with the counter attack by the German aiirforce and remainder of Italian navy. I have a hard time seeing a bad part to this. With that attack the allies will the out of the Med for a while, until the US arives any ways. Germany will have more than enough money to purchase enough replacement planes that they wont be hard off. Then It isn’t like Germany lost any of its fleet in the counter attack. The RN is gone on G1 and G2, and the German navy and airforce will still be strong enough take care of the rebuilding RN of a while.Then Blitz you never really mention any ideas for how Italy is to recover. The way I see for Italy to recover is this. Once the Allied ships are sunk Italy will need to take Gibraltar and rebuild a few critical ships in the Med and take Egypt. I don’t really want to mention specifics because I haven’t played yet and don’t want you guys to jump all over me if I say something wrong.
Yes your wrong to an extent. UK fighters in egypt can kill any transport you try to buy to get Gibraltar. The UK has a minor in egypt they purchase turn 2 before Italy takes its 2nd turn with about 12 dollars to spend and no fleet. Also India fighters can often be free to go there as well temporarily. Hell my friend was able to purchase more ships to combine with all the french ships there. Take my word for it, Italy’s situation is a horrid one.
Germany on G2 takes out the Med fleet. Italy has a trannie built on I1. UK has no units to counter with as its egypt ftr is dead. Italy takes Gibraltar
Once again you operate under to many assumptions. Your assuming the Lufwaffte is successful G2 and you assume it’s a good idea to devote your planes there instead of elsewhere. You also assume the US is not moving these 3 rounds it takes for italy to get gibralter under control. To many “if” and “shoulds” for your suggestion to be a cure all counter.
Okay, the Med fleet is a DD, CC, CV, ftr, tac. The defense is 14, with 6 casualties needed to die. Germans attack with 6 planes, 4 ftrs, tac, bomber. Attack is 20 and takes 6 hits. Germany survives with 2 planes, maybe fighter and bomber. If Germany built a bomber G1, the attack is 24, and Germany may survive with ftr, tac, 2 bmr. Germany has 60+ ipc’s to repair everything. Germany loses 30-40 ipc’s in planes, allies lose 56 ipc’s of navy. Where else can Germany attack G2 with those planes? A G2 Barbarossa will be premature. I haven’t advocated the Gib strat, but Italy can take Gib on I2, not I3. Furthermore, the US won’t be at war for 1-2 turns, so Italy is safe there.
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Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall. These guys are entrenched in their positions. Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents. Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?
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Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall. These guys are entrenched in their positions. Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents. Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?
I’m actually playing a game right now. I will be moving Russia when I get the game tomorrow(hopefully, unless they get delayed).
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Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall. These guys are entrenched in their positions. Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents. Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?
I don’t think insulting the playing ability of the people you’re arguing with is the best way to present your points. Furthermore, every idea I’ve seen on here so far involves committing German resources to the Med that are already stretched to their limit preparing for or embarking upon their two front war. Every German unit and IPC is absolutely critical to implementing an effective attack on either the UK (which in my opinion is madness as the US will snatch back GB the turn following the unlikely event that Sea Lion is even pulled off successfully, thus negating any sort of economic advantage to be gained while wasting your first 3 German turns of purchases) or Russia (the distance between German IC’s and Moscow meaning you need absolutely every available bit of power you can squeeze out of Germany to be able to bring an attack to a successful conclusion, if it’s even possible without Jap support). Replacing planes lost in the Med counterattack or building German IC’s to churn out ships on the Med are HUGE INVESTMENTS during turns where it’s crucial to be spending every available point on setting up to achieve your overall war goal. And the shadow of US all-in on the Atlantic looms over all these suggestions for Axis counter-moves.
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Calvin, you and I are banging our heads against a brick wall. These guys are entrenched in their positions. Their only medicine is to learn in a real game against worthy opponents. Any takers Blitz and the rest of you?
I don’t think insulting the playing ability of the people you’re arguing with is the best way to present your points. Furthermore, every idea I’ve seen on here so far involves committing German resources to the Med that are already stretched to their limit preparing for or embarking upon their two front war. Every German unit and IPC is absolutely critical to implementing an effective attack on either the UK (which in my opinion is madness as the US will snatch back GB the turn following the unlikely event that Sea Lion is even pulled off successfully, thus negating any sort of economic advantage to be gained while wasting your first 3 German turns of purchases) or Russia (the distance between German IC’s and Moscow meaning you need absolutely every available bit of power you can squeeze out of Germany to be able to bring an attack to a successful conclusion, if it’s even possible without Jap support). Replacing planes lost in the Med counterattack or building German IC’s to churn out ships on the Med are HUGE INVESTMENTS during turns where it’s crucial to be spending every available point on setting up to achieve your overall war goal. And the shadow of US all-in on the Atlantic looms over all these suggestions for Axis counter-moves.
Historically, Germany had to help Italy in the Med. Italy rarely acted alone. The game stays true to this. If you want Italy to conquer Africa, you must sacrifice some momentum on Russia.
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Historically, the Axis lost the war too. It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.
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