Why isn't Italy in this game instead of Japan?


  • despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?


  • I thought that was the French?

    Heh, I know the French take a beating as well as the Italians :)

    What’s really funny is that during the last… three weeks I believe it was… of the German invasion in 1940, the French actually inflicted more casualties on the Germans than they suffered themselves which led to all sorts of accusations against the Petain govt that they were all too willing to surrender and that they should have instead tried to fight it out. I don’t say that to start a long drawn out argument about the French army effectiveness in WWII, but really after the initial shock of the invasion where the Germans basically split the allies in half, the French fought rather well but not well enough to offset the enourmous losses of the first weeks of fighting.

    When Mussolini tried to cash in by invading in the south (always a good idea, mountain fighting when the enemy holds all the high points… :roll: ) and the casualties were something like Italy: 4000 - France: 15 in two weeks of fighting. And those are thought to be real #'s, not something made up afterwards :oops:


  • @Grigoriy:

    despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?

    oh that’s not even funny anymore.
    “Napoleon built the arc de triumphe, and the only armies to march triumphantly through it were the Germans and the Americans”.


  • Hey, I was being serious. :P


  • I was thinking the same thing as GI. :P


  • UKcommander and MistaBiggs could you both please post your house rules for adding Italy. Thanks


  • the last area to fall in france was actually the border with Germany. the Maginot line ahd not been extended through a thick coastal forest on the belife that the forest would be enough. also, it hadnt been extended south to cover the border with italy. the German army basically squeezed single file through the woods after the maginot line kicked the snot out of them. even when the germans came at it from the rear later on, it was still an impressive defense.


  • Yes, the Maginot line was impressive, unfortunately, it failed. Also, the forest might have been enough, had there not been “roads” going through it that allowed the panzers through. And the Germans did not really take any casualties from the Maginot line until after France was basically conquered anyway, by which time it was largely irrelevant.


  • @Anonymous:

    UKcommander and MistaBiggs could you both please post your house rules for adding Italy. Thanks

    Here’s my Italy Rules – keep in mind that this altered Map/Game will start a little earlier (to allow Italy more territories) and it won’t be completely “historically” accurate. Also, I have yet to test it out … so, the unit placement for the countries may need a little tweaking. But, this should be a good starter kit.

    ITALY RULES:

    Order of turn:
    • Germany
    • USSR
    • Italy
    • UK
    • Japan
    • USA

    Italian territories:
    • S. Europe – raise IPC value to 10 (Use Gibraltar Blow-Up Box for S. Europe)
    • Libya – raise IPC value to 2
    • Italian E. Africa – raise IPC value to 2
    • Syria-Iraq’s – raise IPC value to 2 (On April 3, 1941, a Pro-Axis regime was set up in Iraq)
    • Add Sicily – IPC value of 1 (Use West Indies Blow-Up Box for Sicily)
    • Split Eastern Europe into two (Northeastern Europe – Germany, Southeastern Europe – Italian)
    o Southeastern Europe – IPC value of 3

    German territories:
    • Change IPC value of Algeria to 2
    • Split Eastern Europe into two (Northeastern Europe – Germany, Southeastern Europe – Italian)
    o Northeastern Europe – IPC value of 5

    Russian territories:
    • Split Caucasus into two (Northern Caucasus and Southern Caucasus – split below Stalingrad from Southeastern tip of Ukraine S.S.R. to Southwestern tip of Moscow … thus, no amphibious assaults on Northern Caucasus and most go threw Northern Caucasus to get to Moscow)
    o Southern Caucasus – IPC value of 1
    o Northern Caucasus – IPC value of 2
    • Split Karelia S.S.R. into two (Eastern Karelia S.S.R. and Western Karelia S.S.R.)
    o East Karelia S.S.R. – IPC value of 3
    o West Karelia S.S.R. – IPC value of 2

    Italian units:
    • S. Europe – 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, IC, and A/A
    • Southeastern Europe – 2 infantry, 1 tank
    • Libya – 2 infantry, 1 fighter (to acknowledge that Italy had almost 600 planes in Africa)
    • Italian E. Africa – 2 infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Syria-Iraq – 1 infantry
    • Sicily – 1 infantry and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Red SZ – 1 transport
    • E. Med. SZ – 1 transport and 1 submarine
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 transport, 1 battleship (1937 - Italian battleships “Littorio” and “Vittorio Veneto” are launched)

    German units:
    • Algeria – 1 tank and 1 infantry
    • Black SZ – 1 sub
    • W. Spain SZ – 1 sub and 1 transport
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 battleship

    UK units:
    • UK – 3 infantry, 1 tank, 2 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • Congo – 1 infantry
    • Persia – 1 infantry
    • Anglo-Egypt Sudan – 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 A/A
    • Union of S. Africa – 2 infantry
    • Angola SZ – 1 submarine
    • Move sub from E. Med. SZ to W. Med. SZ

    Russian units:
    • Novosibirsk – 1 infantry, 1 tank
    • North Caucasus – 4 infantry, 1 fighter
    • South Caucasus – 1 infantry
    • East Karelia S.S.R. – 1 fighter, 1 tank, 7 infantry, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • West Karelia S.S.R. – 3 infantry, 1 tank
    • Soviet Far East – 2 infantry
    • Soviet Far East SZ – 1 submarine
    • Moscow – 4 infantry, 2 tanks, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 IC, 1 A/A
    • Evenki Nat’l Okrug – 2 infantry, 1 A/A

    Japan units:
    • Japan SZ – 2 transports, 1 battleship
    • Kwangtung – 2 infantry, 1 tank
    • Manchuria – 3 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 A/A

    IPC per Country:
    • Germany – 28
    • USSR – 26
    • Italy – 20
    • UK – 28
    • Japan – 25
    • USA – 36

    Additional Rules:
    • Italian tanks – Cost 4 IPC, Attack at 3, but Defend at 1 (the most common version had a pitiful 6-20 mm of armor)
    • Germany can build 1 unit per turn from the IC in S. Europe
    • Italian transports have the Kamikaze ability (signifying the Italian torpedo boats). The transport performing the attack may use up all of its movement to reach the target and gets one round of combat and attacks on a three or less. The Kamikaze transport is then destroyed and removed from play. If a hit occurs, the target chosen by the Italian player must be destroyed and removed from play. Or in the case of a Battleship, one hit of damage must be inflicted immediately.

    I also have an edited MapView ready for play … e-mail me if you’re interested in obtaining a copy of it.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Sure I’d be interesting in seeing it. Yours is a lot better than mine, but I’ll post it in a bit.


  • Send me an e-mail, so I’ll have your e-mail address to reply to (with the attached MapView file and I can also include the Rules in Microsoft Word format).


  • @MistaBiggs:

    …and it won’t be completely “historically” accurate. Also, I have yet to test it out …

    First of all: good work, MB.
    But, i have nitpicking in my blood, so i hope you don’t mind if i comment a few things, mainly on historicalness.

    ITALY RULES:

    Italian territories:
    • Syria-Iraq’s – raise IPC value to 2 (On April 3, 1941, a Pro-Axis regime was set up in Iraq)

    Well, that is true, but by the 1st of June that had already fallen. So, you might consider either letting it be British again (as one half of Syria/Iraq never was in control by the Axis) or putting some Brits there to retake it as quick as it happened.

    Italian units:…
    • Italian E. Africa – 2 infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter (had air base)
    • Syria-Iraq – 1 infantry

    The forces in East Africa then need quite a lot of British units around them, and even if there was an airbase … there were a lot of airbases everywhere :)…
    i think the number of units in E.A. is too high, considering that they had trouble to be supplied once the war action started.
    For syria/iraq … well, the regime hold for less than two month, do you really think that is worth an inf?

    German units:
    • Black SZ – 1 sub
    • W. Spain SZ – 1 sub and 1 transport
    • M. Med. SZ – 1 battleship

    German fleet in the Med ? …… No way!

    UK units:
    • Congo – 1 infantry
    • Persia – 1 infantry
    • Anglo-Egypt Sudan – 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 A/A
    • Union of S. Africa – 2 infantry

    Not enough. There surely was an air base somewhere in Egypt ;) (just to make sure why i think Italy has too many fighters).

    Additional Rules:…

    Hmmm…… adding a new class of tanks makes the game IMHO unnecessarily more complicated.
    For building on another IC… skip that.
    The germans could never build navy there, and all others can move there.
    You might like to add something like a “lend-lease” for Italy though, that Germany can give up to …say 8 IPCs … per turn to Italy and Italy can use that money as it sees fit.
    For the Torpedo boats…
    well, the Italians had crap subs, so if you want a new class of unit, i would make it that:
    Italian Torpedoboat: (uses Sub counter), cost 6 IPCs, Move 2, Attack 3 (one time only, pick hit), Defense 1


  • Mistabiggs that’s a really cool, thought out way to add Italy into the game in a way that I don’t think horribly upsets the Allies chance to still win. Heh, I have seen (and advised myself at times) the whole changing the tanks defense… my suggestion was to change German tanks so that they defend much better since historically the Germans (and Soviets later on) had very solid tanks. Since if the Russians are buying tanks, something has gone horribly wrong for the Axis, the team that really benefits from this is Germany because it allows them to chance having a territory defended by several tanks and not have to worry about an attack taking out the majority of their offensive weaponry.

    For Syria-Iraq maybe just leave the territory Italian but not occupied to suggest the influence and natural hostility to the British?

    Quite a good sampling of Italian WWII history tho, not too many actually care so it’s nice to see some who have read up on it. Too bad for the Italian armed forces Mussolini wasn’t as good a commander as he was a bully…


  • @kyrial:

    Too bad for the Italian armed forces Mussolini wasn’t as good a commander as he was a bully…

    Probably better for the Allies, though. 8)


  • @cystic:

    @Grigoriy:

    despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?

    oh that’s not even funny anymore.
    “Napoleon built the arc de triumphe, and the only armies to march triumphantly through it were the Germans and the Americans”.

    how many tried (im being very serious here, not a jerk)


  • @F_alk:

    I have nitpicking in my blood, so i hope you don’t mind if i comment a few things, mainly on historicalness.

    Your comments are fine and welcome; however, I clearly stated the following before my post of Italian Rules:

    @MistaBiggs:

    Here’s my Italy Rules – keep in mind that this altered Map/Game will start a little earlier (to allow Italy more territories) and it won’t be completely “historically” accurate. Also, I have yet to test it out … so, the unit placement for the countries may need a little tweaking. But, this should be a good starter kit.

    (Bold emphasis added)

    Take these rules and edit to your likings … as with anything on this forum.


  • @dropkickjake:

    @cystic:

    @Grigoriy:

    despite the now common belief that Italian war exercises involved practising throwing both hands in the air.

    I thought that was the French? :-?

    oh that’s not even funny anymore.
    “Napoleon built the arc de triumphe, and the only armies to march triumphantly through it were the Germans and the Americans”.

    how many tried (im being very serious here, not a jerk)

    What, to march through France? well, let’s see, since when? I know the Germans have been there a couple times, the Americans kicked them out twice, in 1815 the Grand Alliance beat Napoleon at Waterloo, that may not have been in France, but there were British, Prussians, and Austrians. I think.


  • since napoleon

    when cc said that, i realized that i wasnt sure how many other countries tried….

  • 2007 AAR League

    I know that you all are probably going to think that these are very bad, but here goes.

    Sothern Europe(Value increased to 10)- Infantry-5, Armor-2, Fighter-1, Bomber-1, Antiaircraft-1, Battleship-2, Transport-2, Industrial Complex-1

    Algeria-(Value increased to 3) Infantry-2

    Libya(Value increased to 3. I know that the Italians didn’t actually own Libya, but it’s just a territory I gave them so the board wouldn’t have to be changed to much.) Infantry-3, Armor-1

    The Italian player won’t have much fun because they only can help with the defense of Germany, the assault of Karelia, and the taking of Africa. I tried this out once and the Italians took pretty much all of Africa and I believe, Karelia.


  • Italian divisions were also highly undermanned and undersupplied with even basic weapons such as anti-tank guns… I don’t have my books with me right now, but if I remember correctly even Switzerland was better equipped on a per-man basis than the Italians. Also, most Italian divisions were really at 1/2 strength but they were called divisions so as to make it look like they were much better than they actually were.

    The key to any setup of Italy is that you have to realise that Italy was woefully underprepared for this war…perhaps given another 10 years they might have been ready (or even something like a mid-40’s), but in 1939 they were just totally unprepared.

    Sothern Europe(Value increased to 10)

    Hehe you knew you were going to get a bit of a ribbing for this one UKcommander :D

    Putting the Italian productivity on par with Germany and above England (and Japan) is I think a bit too much. It’s true that you might have to do something like that in order to give them a fighting chance, but then again that’s what history shows: they were not economically prepared and to give them that advantage is making the game historically inaccurate. I mean I know the game isn’t accurate beyond the setup of the board (with Japan coming into Africa shortly and what not and other fun things) but again Italy was just not ready and I think adding them in should show this. Just my thoughts :)

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