• 2007 AAR League

    i have to agree with switch 3 territorys is a bit much for russia to chew


  • In our initial games Russian player attacked only West Russia, with minimal forces, supported by 1 tank and the aircrafts, and grouping all the other units in Caucasus. But we found that Germany may counterattack west Russia strafing the infantry stack there, and then withdraw to Ukraina. And this creates a lot of problem for Russian armies.
    Now we usually attack another territory other than West Russia, usually Bielorussia, trying to conquer it or Ukraina. The better thing to do with Ukraina, IMHO is to strafe it, saving the precious russian tank, but in some games the strafe had gone too deep, causing the destruction of all German forces. I believe that conquering Ukraina it is a bad situation more for Russia that for Germany.


  • With normal dice (not Low Luck) it’s impractical to just “strafe” Ukraine because of the large variance - and you all are right - the risk of “too good dice” and leaving tanks stranded against counterattack. Better go to the end, kill the fighter, take the 3 IPC. German T1 counterattack may be limited and/or exposing their tanks too, due to lack of fighters (at most 1 after pressing Med and Egypt missions).

    With the best forces available there:
    RUS 3i,1a,3t,2f = 21 firepower, or 3.5 killed on average. May kill an arty, is it worth that ? If it kills the tank, then it’s “too close” to that “too good”.
    GER 3i,1a,1t,1f = 15 firepower, or 2.5 killed on average

    And if Russians send less, say one tank less, then it’s 18:15, too ‘fair’ attrition. Germany may like that ;-) Say it goes 3:3 in the first round, then what ? To stay one more round is “too good”, to withdraw is just equal attrition.

    On the other hand, with Low Luck I send 3i,1a,2t,2f (one tank less, sent to WRU instead) with good chances to gain it with 2arm left.


  • :-o
      I’ve been playing a 3 attack recently, and although costly, I’m begining to like it better all the time.
      Eastern Europe;
            Risky, but if you can kill that Fighter and occupy, it realy can slow the G1 turn. 1 or 2 fighter/s, 1 Tank, and 3 Infantry.
      Western Russia;
            Attack with Infantry and Artillary from Moscow.
      Ukraine;
            Try to kill off that second German fighter. 3 tanks, 1 ftr. (if only one used in EE), 1 art. and 3 Infantry.
        True, it is a more aggressive opening than most players will do, but it can really delay the German opening turn on some fronts.
      Crazy Ivan :roll:


  • 3 Attacks is just TOO risky for my blood…

    Eastern (2 INF, 1 ARM, 1 FIG):
    W/ 3 INF, 1 FIG Karelia only: 
        It is only a 14% win for Russia (most often you lose all attackers in exchange for 2 INF)
    Add the ARM from Archangel OR FIG from Russia: 
        It is only about a 52% win for Russia, and still unlikely to occupy it.
    Add the FIG from Russia AND the ARM from Archangel
        It is an 83% battle to win but only BARELY above 50% to take Eastern.

    West Russia (3 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM):
    With Archangel INF, Russia INF, Russia ART
        About a 62% chance to win.

    Ukraine (3 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM, 1 FIG):
    With Caucuses INF, ART, and ARM: 
        6%
    Add one Russian ARM:
        32%
    Add BOTH Russian ARM:
        63%

    I consider 66% (2/3 chance) to be the WORST odds I will accept in a less-than-in-deep-kimchee situation.  I can;t get that with attacker Eastern/West Russia/Ukraine, no matter how I slice it.  Add in an Axis bid of any kind…

    If I DO pull off all three wins I still probably did not gain Eastern’s income, so as Russia I collect only $29, the same as if I attack only 2 territories.  But at a cost of ALL of my armor, and most likely ALL of my forward units in Eastern, West Russia, AND Ukraine to the German counter attack (1 ARM AT MOST in Eastern, 1 INF, 1 ART in West Russia on average, 2 ARM Ukraine). 
    BTW:  The cumulative odds of all 3 battles succeeding:  less than 33%.

    Germany’s counter (along with typical R1 moves that are not blocked by this, only made SLIGHTLY risker by having only 3 FIG for SZ13 and no BOM for Egypt (I’d use it for WR instead) leaves Germany $2 wealthier after their counter (Karelia from Norway, Eastern (if needed to be countered), Ukraine liberated, AND West Russia Liberated (which normally does not happen).

    Germany collecting $46 after G1, Russia with $29 cash and only $22 income, and no ARM unless they purchased them on R1, in which case Russia as a serious manpower shortage in Europe and a LOT of territory to fight over with Germany advancing on them using massed ground forces.


  • What are your thougjts on attacking Eastern Europe and Ukraine only?  It eats two German fighters before they ever get to attack and might be worth the loss of a few Russian tanks.


  • @vanzant316:

    What are your thougjts on attacking Eastern Europe and Ukraine only?  It eats two German fighters before they ever get to attack and might be worth the loss of a few Russian tanks.

    I would love it as Germany, I mean REALLY love it!

    Set up a game board and take a look at why.  I think you will see it…  :wink:


  • OK, not going to be catty…

    With Eastern and Ukraine only attacks on R1…

    1.  I AM going to liberate Eastern and Ukraine, not even a question.  I can use German INF for fodder in Eastern, Belo and Balkans for Ukraine.
    2.  I AM going to take Karelia using Norway forces
    3.  I am EITHER going to take Moscow using 3 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM West Russia, 1 FIG Balkans and 1 BOM Germany (landing in Belo) -OR- Caucuses using the West Russia force plus an amphib from Southern backed up by Balkans FIG and German BOM.

    Considering #3 options:
    If you split your FIGs for defense…
    Russia will need 6 INF in Moscow to drop the German odds below 50% win; 7 INF and a FIG (plus AA of course) to drop it to 25% (which is where I would probably abort the idea of attacking Moscow. 
    Caucuses will need 9 INF, 1 FIG, and AA to drop the odds below 50% win; 10 INF to get the odds below 1 in 4 of a German win.

    So you need 15-17 INF and BOTH FIGS to hold Moscow and Caucuses reliably.  To HAVE both FIGs for defense means you only used the Karelia FIG in Eastern.  And THAT means you only have about a 50% chance of even HAVING that FIG to use for defense (if you use both FIGs to increase the odds, the Russia FIG has to land in Karelia and can;t get back to Moscow or Caucuses).  But let’s say that the 1 in 2 happens and the Karelia FIG surives the attack on Eastern AND kills the German FIG there.

    So where do those 15+ INF come from?
    3 Archangel
    2 Evenk
    2 Novo
    2 Kazakh
    3 Russia
    8 BUILD

    So you CAN hold both against the available German forces, if you pull everything that can reach to defend Caucuses and Russia.

    Fine, Strategic Withdraw from West Russia and mass all available German forces in Ukraine:
    1 INF, 1 ART Southern (via TRN)
    1 ARM Southern
    2 INF, 1 ARM Balkans
    3 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM West Russia
    2 INF Belo (one sent to picket WR)
    2 ARM Germany
    A total of:  8 INF, 2 ART, 5 ARM.

    Go ahead Russia, attack that with INF and a FIG or 2, because if you do not, I AM going to either take Caucuses, or move to West Russia the NEXT turn and force you to choose between Moscow and Caucuses… And if I get Caucuses, I will have it for QUITE a while (with Japan air power flown in to help defend it).  If I get Moscow on G3, GAME OVER.


  • /salute

    Thats why you’re the champ :)

    I’m gonna have to play the Russians a little more conservatively next time and see if I can really stick it  to the Germans.


  • @General:

    /salute

    Thats why you’re the champ :)

    Only once, in '06.  I got my butt handed to me in Round 2 of this year’s Tournament.  U-505 is the current champ…  :-D


  • We all agree on the fact that West Russia is an attack Russia have to do on the first round.

    Making three attack appears to be too risky.

    So two attacks are the ideal R1 move. But where to do the second attack?

    As Magister said simply strafing Ukraina is not easy, you may be unlucky and get the worst losses or you may be too lucky and conquer the territory (and I “experimented” this destroyng all the German army in Ukaraina first round, loosing all the inf, and then… my 3 tank was sitting duck and was wiped from the G2 counterattack… not a good situation)
    So next time I will attack Ukraina to conquer it!

    As Switch said trading for Ukraina and West Russia is a good objective for Russia.

    P.S.

    Switch, your posts should be gathered together in a book: "How to Play and Win at Axis and Allies " !!!


  • Nah.

    I often overlook things in these thread discussions.

    Also, I have been losing half of my games in the League, and I only have about a 66% win record overall.  There are folks who have better records than me, and who are better gamers than I am.


  • @ncscswitch:

    Nah.

    I often overlook things in these thread discussions.

    Also, I have been losing half of my games in the League, and I only have about a 66% win record overall.  There are folks who have better records than me, and who are better gamers than I am.

    but old Fox always pull out somethin, as my people like to say wounded lion is the most dangerous one
    i expect your great play in the tourn.
    and that Jen and i meat/beat you in the same one. :wink:


  • @ncscswitch:

    Nah.

    I often overlook things in these thread discussions.

    Also, I have been losing half of my games in the League, and I only have about a 66% win record overall.  There are folks who have better records than me, and who are better gamers than I am.

    Switch, I have read many threads on this forum and, often your posts have clarified my mind more than other explanations, with all the due respect for any other person who write on this forum.
    I am not trying to adulate you, I have only made a consideration.

    Moreover a saying of my country say: “To be a good rider does not require to have been a horse” (I hope my translation is comprensible  :-D )

    Returning on topic.

    I have noted that aggressive move on R1 requires Germany to use a greater number of fighter on Russian front, leaving less fighter to be used in Mediterraneanb Sea and in Africa, and this is a great benefits for UK. Also, Germany is forced to commit a great number of infantry in the Eastern Front and have less unit to stack in France and Germany.

    My question is: German opening moves in answer to aggressive Russia is regruoup and defend, attacking Africa, or trying to advance (in Ukraine and toward Caucasus) forfeiting Africa and using TRN to shuttle troops in Russia?


  • Aggressive Russia means you still take Africa, still clear the Med, AND take out the Russian advance forces.  Then re-group in G2 for further advances against a Russia depleted of offensive units.


  • Where to regroup?

    When Russia attack only West Russia I usually strafe Western Russia forces, and then fall back in Ukraina, starting to put pressure on Caucasus and West Russia.

    But if Ukraina is fallen, I have had problems, and chosen to regroup in Eastern Europe, but this not work because trading for Ukraina and Bielorussia give too much IPC to Russia.

    Alternatively, in my last game I chose to advance to Ukraina with my main army, but several turn of attrition, with reciprocal strafing did not allow me to advance to Moscow fast.
    Cucasus fell, but only on turn 5, when British reinforcement from Norway start to create serius problems in Eastern Europe and USA units have cleared Africa and began to stare to Rome and Paris.

    Maybe I should stay in Eastern Europe trading territories with Russia and moving toward Caucasus when Japanese are at gate of Moscow?

  • Moderator

    Both options can work, either a light counter of Ukr with a stack of EE or a heavy counter of Ukr encouraging a heavy counter by Rus if they want to reclaim.

    If you go with option 2, the goal is to continue to take out Russian offensive units so that as Japan approaches in rds 4-5 they can do so without worrying about Russia at all.  But Germany must be able to play solid def once the UK and US land.  This could require vacating WE or EE or both and then trading them back with your superior air power.  Also the possibliltiy of trading SE.  The goal being keep the UK and US occupied just enough so that it is a weak Russia (with only Inf, 1-3 arm, 2 ftrs) vs. a continually growing Japan 45+ IPC with 2 IC that is dropping 8 inf + and 4 arm a turn into Asia.
    My prefered method is to vacate WE and shift Ger forces east, daring the allies to land in WE so I can keep Russia isolated.  Most Allied players won’t commit a lot to WE but it still bleeds off a few inf since it is so hard for them to pass up 6 ipc.  But it makes it easy for you to counter and still maintain the ability to get a few token troops East.

    With option 1, you are banking that in about 3-4 turns you can then make a heavy move to Ukr (with your entire EE army) that Russia can’t counter at all as you shift all German forces East and you can now directly threaten both Wrus and Cauc as Japan can threaten Novo and Kaz.  It puts Russia in some serious trouble on what to defend and how to counter since they can’t stop or kill both armies.


  • Well, so my defensive approach has been wrong. I tried to defend strong also WE and SE other than Berlin.
    So it is better to fall back from WE to Berlin and then counterattack each turn trading WE with US and UK.

    Counterattack should be done only with inf and plane? In that case what to do with WE AA? Pull back to Berlin?

    It seems sthat I am going  slightly out of topic, but this problem arisen if Russia is aggressive and attack two territories.

    In my limited experience, as I already said, 1 territory (West Russia) is too few for creating problem to Germany, while three territories are too much, because Russian unit spreaded across the front are easy prey for Germany. (if they did not fall during the attacks)

  • Moderator

    In most games there comes a point where it really isn’t possible for Germany to defend the 4 core territories and still maintain pressure on Moscow.
    There is just too many spots for the Allies to land, so before losing a bulk of your troops defend or keeping valuable inf needed against Russia shift everything East and get them involved.

    Correct, you want to trade with ftrs and inf.  Most games you should have 4-5 ftrs and 1 bom.  Which gives you a good enough punch to repel most first landings by the Allies.  If UK lands 2 inf, attack with 3 inf, 4-5 planes and repeat while defending Ger.  You can do the same with SE, but there it might be nice to use Inf and Arm and alternate.  One turn you take heavy protecting the arm from counter, then you vacate on the next German turn.

    Now if the Allies DO land heavy in WE, you can attack with your inf, ftrs AND arm and then retreat back to Ger after you strafe the heck out of them.  As long as you kill 4 more units that you lost you’ll be fine since that essentially covers the loss of WE for that turn.

    Example, you have 10 inf in WE, 10 in Ger, 4 in SE and 10 in EE with 6 armor.  Move the 10 inf in Ger to EE, 10 inf in WE to Ger, 4 inf to Ger from SE and place your 8-10 units in Ger.  Now look at what the Allies see, Germany stacked with about 20 inf, 5 planes, EE with about 15-20 inf, 6 arm.  Now even if UK dumps 8 units to WE and US follows with 10 units, you easily have 30 units (inf+arm+ftrs) to smash him with, yet you still have a good force to threaten Kar and Ukr.  In this case the UK will probably drop 2 inf to WE (to claim the 6 ipc) and the rest to either Nor or Kar.  That is an easy trade for Ger (3 inf, 4 ftrs) and still allows you to threaten Ukr and move inf East.  As long as you keep about 15+ inf in Ger and your armor safely protected in EE you can keep WE lightly defended (1-2 inf).  I leave it empty at first if UK has its BB.
    If US can land in SE, then instead of shifting 10 inf to EE from Ger, shift 6 and drop 4 to Balk.  This allows you to bring 15+ inf and arm to SE to counter a US move and should protect against a counter on the next US turn.

    As for the AA guns, shift them as well.  1 to EE from Ger and 1 to Ger from WE.  Or if you have to vacate EE, then stack Balk with your troops and an AA.

    I find I usually have to deadzone WE by about G4-5, unless I’m doing really well in Afr or something.

  • Moderator

    As Russia, I’ve been doing the Wrus attack only lately.  But I don’t have problems with either the Wrus + Belo or Wrus + Ukr are fine.  Each have their pros and cons.

    Killing the ftr in Ukr is nice but I don’t like exposing the 2-3 arm that are needed to take to the G counter.

    I will use any one of those three openings but I seem to use the Wrus + Belo the least.

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