• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Okay, so what’s the verdict on Panzerblitz.

    Can a german tank blitz through Karelia into Archangelsk and back to Karelia if there are no Russian defenders anywhere in either zone?  Because the way I am reading the rule the tank has to actually shoot at something to get that retreat 1 space option, otherwise, it functions just like everyone else’s tank. (You run two spaces, stop to get gas, hope you don’t get shot at, then move away.)

  • 2007 AAR League

    To add to that, what if you blitz through an empty territory and attack a defending unit in the second territory, would you still be able to panzerblitz back?


  • @Jennifer:

    Okay, so what’s the verdict on Panzerblitz.

    Can a german tank blitz through Karelia into Archangelsk and back to Karelia if there are no Russian defenders anywhere in either zone?  Because the way I am reading the rule the tank has to actually shoot at something to get that retreat 1 space option, otherwise, it functions just like everyone else’s tank. (You run two spaces, stop to get gas, hope you don’t get shot at, then move away.)

    this does seem to be a bit of a “broken rule” if i’m reading it right - kind of like getting to move 3 spaces for the price of 2.


  • 1.  Nothing is as broken as Lend-Lease.  Most of the other Allies NAs are horribly overpowered.

    2.  Panzerblitz IS the ONLY decent German NA.

    3.  There MUST be a defender.  You cannot “destroy all defenders” if there are no defenders.

    4.  If the enemy has an AA gun, Panzerblitz doesn’t work.

    5.  If you blitz through an empty territory, attack and destroy all defenders in a second territory in one turn of fire, you can panzerblitz back.

    6.  It is not like getting to move 3 spaces.  Panzerblitz is a noncombat move.


  • The rule as written in LHTR:

    If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory
    in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving tanks in the attacking
    forces may move 1 territory during the noncombat move phase.

    This means that tanks must have been involved in an actual Combat (one that had a “first cycle”) in which enemy units were destroyed, in order for the Panzerblitz to become an option afterward.  Otherwise, no cigar.

    Tanks can panzerblitz even after they’ve already blitzed, since there is no restriction against it.

    Newpaintbrush:  I like several of Germany’s NA’s.  Panzerblitz, Luftwaffe Dive-Bomber, and Fortress Europe have all been very effective in games I’ve played.  I’m planning to take the sub-based ones for a test run in an upcoming game, too.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @newpaintbrush:

    1.  Nothing is as broken as Lend-Lease.  Most of the other Allies NAs are horribly overpowered.

    I don’t know how this is broken.  Lend-Lease:

    Russia may convert ONE British land unit and ONE American land unit to Russian units.  That’s 2 units and they have to be infantry, artillery or tanks.

    Seems to me that LHTR did nothing but completely nerf the allied NAs and tripled the power on the axis ones.  But that’s just my opinion of it.  Best allied NAs are, uhm, colonial garrison and mechanized infantry, the rest of them completely suck.

    Dive Bombers rocks!  Attack at a 5 or less and you start with 6 fighters???
    Panzer Blitz: 3 Moves - the way you read the rule, 2 the way I do
    U-Boot: Cost 8, but they steal 2 IPCs a round until they die. 1 From America, 1 From England.
    Banzai: all infantry attack at a 2 or less.  Who needs artillery or tanks???
    Superfortresses: 25% death rate against AA Guns, normal bombers 16%

    But that’s all off topic.

    The way I read it is you have two movement points.  However, you are permitted to use the second point regardless of combat provided you destroyed all defenders in the first round of combat.  If there are no defenders, it’s a normal blitz maneuver.  The only specialness in this blitz is the ability to continue after combat.  Not get a 3rd territory space out of it.

    We can see how artifically extended ranges have been prevented before.  You cannot move a carrier and then move the fighters 4 more spaces.  You cannot move a tank 2 spaces after deploying from a transport. (no blitz.)  Even in AAR they took out the withdraw option for defending submarines to remove the 3rd space artificial movement ability.


  • @Jennifer:

    @newpaintbrush:

    1.  Nothing is as broken as Lend-Lease.  Most of the other Allies NAs are horribly overpowered.

    I don’t know how this is broken.  Lend-Lease:

    Russia may convert ONE British land unit and ONE American land unit to Russian units.  That’s 2 units and they have to be infantry, artillery or tanks.

    That’s because you’re reading the LHTR version.

    OOB Lend Lease puts no restrictions on number or type of converted unit.  So you end up with a unbelievably powerful Russian air force.

    OOB Dive Bombers:  Like industrial bombing, but even less cost effective.  Not all that great, because German fighters have to help defend against the Allied navy.
    PanzerBlitz:  OK, actually.
    U-Boat:  You can’t take Russia with U-Boats.  Almost useless against KGF.
    Banzai:  The ability to redirect attacks between Ssinkiang, Yakut, and India is vital.  Japan must almost inevitably use fighters and tanks in the midgame.

    Superfortresses:  A US NA.  And how is it 25% death rate?

    “I like several of Germany’s NA’s.  Panzerblitz, Luftwaffe Dive-Bomber, and Fortress Europe have all been very effective in games I’ve played.  I’m planning to take the sub-based ones for a test run in an upcoming game, too.”

    Good for you.  I wonder why you found Luftwaffe Dive-Bomber to be useful; was the Allied player determined to go KJF, freeing Germany’s fighters up?  How is it that Fortress Europe was that good for you?  It is only a slight advantage against Allied strafes (for lightly held German territories), and the added cost makes it marginally useful against heavy Allied attacks.  The sub-based ones are not awful, if you take them both.  But really - the fact of the matter is, yes, each German NA is better than NOTHING, but I find the German NAs to be underpowered in comparison to the Allied NAs.

    OOB, that is.


  • Good for you.  I wonder why you found Luftwaffe Dive-Bomber to be useful; was the Allied player determined to go KJF, freeing Germany’s fighters up?  How is it that Fortress Europe was that good for you?  It is only a slight advantage against Allied strafes (for lightly held German territories), and the added cost makes it marginally useful against heavy Allied attacks.  The sub-based ones are not awful, if you take them both.  But really - the fact of the matter is, yes, each German NA is better than NOTHING, but I find the German NAs to be underpowered in comparison to the Allied NAs.

    Well, generally I pick an NA (or NAs) and then try to alter my purchasing and combat decisions to best benefit from those NAs.  Pick Luftwaffe, buy fighters.  Pick Fortress Europe, buy artillery, and so on.  Then use them effectively.  Your tactics have to support your strategy.  Its a good idea to pick complementary NAs among your nations.  As Allies recently, I selected Trans-Siberian Railway, Colonial Garrison (India), and Chinese Divisions.  That let me add a significant amount of pressure to the war in southeast Asia, pulling Japan into serious mainland skirmishes and depleting their ability to counter naval action in the Pacific.

    Luftwaffe is useful because the fighters attack on 5.  That speaks for itself, I think.  It’s a whole new ballgame when a half-dozen fighters practically guarantees 5 hits.  That means that your combats last fewer rounds, which means fewer hits against your fodder units, which means money freed up for spending on heavier units.

    Fortress Europe allows you to build up a slightly cheaper defense in the west while freeing up your tanks to head east.  Stacks of German 88s here and there defending all on 3 makes Europe a much tougher nut to crack.

    I think Germany has the best overall spread of NAs, actually.  That’s just me.

    ~Josh


  • @Jennifer:

    We can see how artifically extended ranges have been prevented before.  You cannot move a carrier and then move the fighters 4 more spaces.  You cannot move a tank 2 spaces after deploying from a transport. (no blitz.)  Even in AAR they took out the withdraw option for defending submarines to remove the 3rd space artificial movement ability.

    True, but even with those efforts, you can still artificially increase a unit’s range.  Retreating from combat in some situations can do it. 
    Example: 
    Germany rolls a tank 2 spaces from Algeria through German-controlled Libya to attack Anglo-Egypt, while at the same time attacking with a few Inf from Trans-Jordan.  After one round of combat, Germany retreats all surviving units including the tank into Trans-Jordan.  The tank has “artificially” moved 3 spaces.  Totally allowed by the rules.  Any land or sea unit can pull this sort of maneuver if the circumstances allow it.  The Panzerblitz 3-space range potential is therefore not a total anomaly in the game.

    ~Josh

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Well paint, there’s the problem.  You’re reading OOB and we’re discussing LHTR.

    In LHTR to shoot down a superfortress with an AA Gun you have to roll a 3 or less on two dice.  You can get that with a 1 and a 1, a 1 and a 2 or a 2 and a 1.  That’s 3 possible successes against 12 total outcomes, or a 1 in 4 chance to shoot down a super fortress.  That is SO unrealistic considering you only have a 1 in 6 chance of shooting down a standard bomber!

    And yes, Lend-Lease was broken in OOB, but no one playes OOB rules except you and a few hold outs, and I doubt you play with NAs. 🙂  In LHTR that’s been changed to 1 unit converted from england and 1 from America per turn and they have to be land units.  That’s pittance.  Actually, other then Colonial Garrison, all the allied NAs have been completely nerfed and all the Axis ones buffed - except Colonial Garrison and Radar and there’s almost no way to nerf those except maybe saying the Colonial Garrison has to go in French West Africa or some other completely insane thing.

    Outsidelime:

    In that case you never fully entered the territory since you did not conqure it.  You pulled up to the border and engaged the enemy forces from there.  Technically, you are still in the territory you attacked from.

    However, you could make that arguement with the scenario that you attack Caucasus from Persia and from Ukraine and then retreat the Persians to Ukriane.


  • In that case you never fully entered the territory since you did not conqure it.  You pulled up to the border and engaged the enemy forces from there.  Technically, you are still in the territory you attacked from.

    OK, you could look at it like that.  But regardless of whether or not Germany’s tank “entered” Anglo-Egypt, it still ends up in Trans-Jordan, 3 spaces away from Algeria.

    ~Josh


  • @Jennifer:

    Well paint, there’s the problem.  You’re reading OOB and we’re discussing LHTR.

    In LHTR to shoot down a superfortress with an AA Gun you have to roll a 3 or less on two dice.  You can get that with a 1 and a 1, a 1 and a 2 or a 2 and a 1.  That’s 3 possible successes against 12 total outcomes, or a 1 in 4 chance to shoot down a super fortress.  That is SO unrealistic considering you only have a 1 in 6 chance of shooting down a standard bomber!

    And yes, Lend-Lease was broken in OOB, but no one playes OOB rules except you and a few hold outs, and I doubt you play with NAs. 🙂  In LHTR that’s been changed to 1 unit converted from england and 1 from America per turn and they have to be land units.  That’s pittance.  Actually, other then Colonial Garrison, all the allied NAs have been completely nerfed and all the Axis ones buffed - except Colonial Garrison and Radar and there’s almost no way to nerf those except maybe saying the Colonial Garrison has to go in French West Africa or some other completely insane thing.

    I represent the masses that don’t go online and read LHTR! ( Even though I go online and read LHTR).  I figure the masses of people will NOT go online and find the LHTR rules.

    If you roll a 3 or less on two dice, that’s 3/36, not 3/12.  That’s 1/12 chance of losing an aircraft.  That is better than 1/6 for the attacker.

    You can get 1 and 1, 1 and 2, or 2 and 1.  Three possibilities of losing an aircraft.  But there are thirty-six distinct dice outcomes, not twelve.  When there are two distinct outcomes, you multiply, not add.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @newpaintbrush:

    @Jennifer:

    Well paint, there’s the problem.  You’re reading OOB and we’re discussing LHTR.

    In LHTR to shoot down a superfortress with an AA Gun you have to roll a 3 or less on two dice.  You can get that with a 1 and a 1, a 1 and a 2 or a 2 and a 1.  That’s 3 possible successes against 12 total outcomes, or a 1 in 4 chance to shoot down a super fortress.  That is SO unrealistic considering you only have a 1 in 6 chance of shooting down a standard bomber!

    And yes, Lend-Lease was broken in OOB, but no one playes OOB rules except you and a few hold outs, and I doubt you play with NAs. :)  In LHTR that’s been changed to 1 unit converted from england and 1 from America per turn and they have to be land units.  That’s pittance.  Actually, other then Colonial Garrison, all the allied NAs have been completely nerfed and all the Axis ones buffed - except Colonial Garrison and Radar and there’s almost no way to nerf those except maybe saying the Colonial Garrison has to go in French West Africa or some other completely insane thing.

    I represent the masses that don’t go online and read LHTR! ( Even though I go online and read LHTR).  I figure the masses of people will NOT go online and find the LHTR rules.

    If you roll a 3 or less on two dice, that’s 3/36, not 3/12.  That’s 1/12 chance of losing an aircraft.  That is better than 1/6 for the attacker.

    You can get 1 and 1, 1 and 2, or 2 and 1.  Three possibilities of losing an aircraft.  But there are thirty-six distinct dice outcomes, not twelve.  When there are two distinct outcomes, you multiply, not add.

    If this means, you have to roll less than a three on two separate dice…
    actually, that’s 6 distinct possibilities. 1 and 1, 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 3 (says 3 or less on two dice
    6/36 = 1/6… wait a sec…

    or do you mean, you have to roll a sum total of 3 or less on two dice? In which case, you are absolutely right about 3/36
    1 + 1 = 2, 1+2 = 3. 2 + 1 = 3

    Mateooo


  • Sum total, yup.

    1 in 12.

    This math now occupies two threads.

    ~Josh

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I got it in the other thread.  Mental block.  Happens when you’re teaching math, taking two upper level collegic math courses and raising two kids simultaniously.

    Still, the subject title, Paint, specifically says NA Panzerblitz LHTR, it doesn’t say OOB.

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