• On G1, I usually buy a Carrier and place it in the Baltic. While it does save your ships from an opportunistic UK, I feel the value of the purchase comes more from the tieing up of allied fighters in the UK that would otherwise be sent to help defend Russian infantry stacks. It also forces the UK and US to invest in a few subs, fighters and a carrier or two of their own to defend their transports.

    My question is: What should I do with this Baltic fleet?

    In my experience, if I move out into the Atlantic the UK sends 1 BB, 2 trans, 3 figs and a bmb to kill it (a 60% to win, 6% to clear, 34% to lose battle). The battle can go either way, but even if it goes against the allies they can retreat their BB and remaining aircraft and bring on an AC and transport into the sz with the BB. The US then sends whatever available ships as fodder and lands fighters on the carrier. This is a hard nut to crack, and the US will be able to hunt down the German fleet in the next few turns with its fodder and aircraft.

    However, if you sit and wait in the Baltic too long you will be contained and then crushed at the allies leisure.

    The way I see it, I should either invest in other naval units (ie a sub and a destroyer), or write the fleet off altogether from the beginning, being happy if I down a UK fig or two on UK1/2.

  • 2007 AAR League

    You have at least 4 choices:

    1. German naval link-up. Look under the topic “Germany strategy concept” by Switch. This involves building an AC G1 and linking the baltic and med fleet in sz7 on G2.

    2. No naval build G1. This means your fleet is doomed one way or another. You can have them sit tight and hope for good dice against RAF or move them around stalling any allied landings for as long as possible. But it IS doomed.

    3. Buy an AC or 3+ trns or even a BB. This will keep your fleet alive longer. Use it actively to seek out allied navies. You can always split your force, move out single subs to “block” and attack the next round etc.

    4. Similar build as in 3, but sit tight. Yes, you can’t escape and will be boxed in but you will protect key german areas from an early invasion and can both protect and trade norway with your trn. You can also build more in later turns to further increase the navy/airforce the allies need to take it out. But keep in mind the baltic fleet is ultimately going to sink so don’t spend money that could be better spent elsewhere.


  • Don’t get attached.

    The 16 IPCs for a Carrier is designed to force the Allies to react to your move, rather than letting them set the pace. Eventually the navy will die- turn 4 against top competition is about right. In the meantime Germany has been able to funnel troops to Karelia more quickly, and makes a northern move more risky for the Allies. Also, Norway is worth 3 IPCs, so it allows you to contest it (with minimal troops, most should be heading to Russia) longer into the game.

    To me it’s a bad idea to spend any more IPCs on German navy- but there might come a point when a sub or transport could keep your navy alive for one more turn. If the end is near and you can’t stop it, make sure your Fighters get to land before the end comes.

    To me combining the navies only makes sense in a bid game, when Germany can place an extra unit in Africa to take Egypt and still move the navy to Gibraltar. Otherwise it makes no sense (at least to me). Britain’s weak underbelly becomes not-so-weak when Egypt’s economy and units belong to them to start the game.


  • Well said 88

  • 2007 AAR League

    I like to buy an AC & 1 Trn for the baltic on G1.  I find the extra transport to be really useful.  Not only does the UK have to seriously think about a strike on the home land, but any landings in Norway can be easily countered on G2 with the ability to bring 4 ground units plus air support.  Has anyone else used this strategy?  with or without success?


  • I would be leary of it, simply because the 16 IPC for an AC drops you to an 8 INF buy for G1.  Adding a TRN to that drops you to only 16 IPC’s of land units.  And against a good Russian player, that could be fatal.  Drawing more troops off to re-take Norway on top of the reduced G1 buy… sounds SERIOUSLY fatal against a strong Russian player.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Switch-

    Granted the strategy has some risk to it (such is the nature of war) but I disagree that it is “Seriously Fatal”, Russia can’t pose a real threat until at least turn 3, by then germany’s defenses will be in place.  Next free game you have let me know and we’ll put it to the test  😉


  • The problem STARTS earlier than that…

    Germany needs INCOME.  They will lose West Russia and either Bel or Ukraine on R1.  They will lose Norway on UK1 (Germany may be able to re-take it in G2, but that means postponing Karelia).  US lands in Algeria on US 1 or2.

    R2 and R3 are the problems.

    With only 16 IPC of land unit build on G1, Germany has nothing to move toward the Russian Front on G2.  That means that basically Germany has to stop Russia with only their remaining starting forces, and Russia has outbuilt them nearly 2-1 for this round of battle.

    By the time Germany has built, and begun staging forward new units, they don;t have to stage very far.  Eastern and Balkans are now being traded instead of Ukraine.  THAT leaves Germany building not only pitiful numbers of ground troops on G1 due to the naval build, but fewer units in each subsequent round due to lost income.

    And with forces being spent on Norway and in Africa, Germany is actually NEGATIVE net units on G2 against Russia.

    It is an income shift of about 6 IPC’s.  6 less for Germany, 6 more for Russia.  That makes them nearly even at around 30ish IPC’s each (Germany around the mid 30’s until they are booted out of Africa), and that is before UK and US are figured in to the equation.

  • 2007 AAR League

    You may be right but…you haven’t convinced me.  😛

    Germany needs INCOME.  They will lose West Russia and either Bel or Ukraine on R1.  They will lose Norway on UK1 (Germany may be able to re-take it in G2, but that means postponing Karelia).  US lands in Algeria on US 1 or2.

    W. Russia is lost, but Bel or Ukraine can be retaken along with karelia and egypt on G1 (net gain of 2 IPC) giving germany 42 IPC to spend on G2 vs 29 IPC at best for russia on round 2.

    With only 16 IPC of land unit build on G1, Germany has nothing to move toward the Russian Front on G2.  That means that basically Germany has to stop Russia with only their remaining starting forces, and Russia has outbuilt them nearly 2-1 for this round of battle.

    Russia’s round 1 build is only 24 IPC, a German build of 16 (8 IPC difference) plus starting forces is sufficient to hold the line for one round.  It also assumes Russia’s entire build is directed towards germany with nothing allocated to the east.

    Meanwhile with the extra baltic transport the northern flank becomes less of a problem.

    I think it’s a workable strategy (I’ve certainly had good results from it).  I invite you to prove me wrong.   :roll:  Â


  • If I were not already booked out 3 games ahead, I would take you up on it 🙂

    But once you counter in Ukraine/Bel and take Karelia in G2, that is it.  Eastern is basically bare, Balkans IS bare.  Karelia is thin, Norway if you re-took it is TRANSPARENT, and your Ukraine and Bel forces are sitting next to the West Russia Stack… probably 7 INF, 2 ART, 4 ARM… and 2 FIG in reserve in Caucuses or Russia.  THAT force will decimate Germany’s forces on the front in Bel/Ukraine, and UK can handle Norway/Karelia.  Meanwhile, the US just landed in Algeria.

    What are you going to counter Russia with on G3 in Bel, West Russia and Ukraine?  The 16 IPC’s worth of units you bought in G1 that you moved to Eastern?  That and your FIGs?  Good bye luftwaffe.

    If you only buy 5 land units in G1, you only have 5 land units to move east in G2 (and none to move to Western).  And of those 5 units, you want to be able to TRN 4 of them to argue Norway with UK?  And 2 more to re-take Egypt after UK counters from India?  That is a NEGATIVE NET BUILD for Germany in Europe.  Added to R1 losses…

    Sorry, that just doesn;t work.  Try that strat and Russia WILL be in Eastern IN FORCE on R3 (if they want to), and Western WILL fall to the Allies for the first time in UK3.  Africa will never result in gains for Germany, and will never equal losses in central Europe.  You just do not have enough intial forces.

    If you want specifics, I’ll post them.


  • Here they are…
    Assume and R1 of Ukraine and West Russia, both were “average”… both fell to Russia.

    At the start of G1, Germany has 7 INF in Central Europe, 3 in Northern, 2 in Southern and 2 in Western, plus 3 in Germany.  They have 7 ARM left in all of Europe, 5 FIGs, a BOM, and 1 ART (not counting Africa troops).

    Germany HAS to re-take Ukraine… not an option.  You said you also want Karelia.  And you go after Egypt.

    The Karelia move pulls 2 German INF to Karelia, plus the 3 Norway forces (if you want to have more than token resistance against the UK attack in UK1).  Egypt requires 2 units (1 INF, 1 ART) from Southern to leave Europe for Africa.  You are also going to be sending at least 1 FIG and your BOM down there if you want to TAKE it, and have a chance at re-taking it in G2.  Against Ukraine you use minimal force to take… Let’s say 3 INF and 1 ARM, and you take it with 2 INF and 1 ARM.  And lets assume you stage your ARM in Eastern (or perhaps you advance stage to Karelia, so shift those forces that could reach…  You protect your Western FIGs with an INF from Germany and 1 from Southern.  You consolidate the rest of your forces from Central Europe to Eastern, and you “picket” Belorussia with 1 INF.

    For build placement, you need to put 2 units in Southern for transport to Africa to re-take Egypt in G2… 1 INF, 1 ART to give you offensive punch.  That leaves 3 INF Germany.

    Here is your forces summary after G1 with average dice…
    Europe:
    Western:  4 INF, 3 FIG, 1 AA
    Southern:  1 INF, 1 ART, 1 AA, 1 IC
    Germany:  3 INF, 1 AA, 1 IC
    Balkans:  vacant
    Ukraine:  2 INF, 1 ARM
    Belorussia:  1 INF
    Karelia:  9 INF, 3 ARM
    Eastern:  3 ARM
    Norway:  vacant.

    Africa:
    Libya:  1 INF, 1 ART, 1 FIG, 1 BOM
    Egypt:  1 ARM, 1 ART

    Naval:
    SZ15:  1 BB, 1 TRN
    SZ5:  2 SUB, 2 TRN, 1 DST, 1 AC, 1 FIG

    That is with creating a “Karelia Stack”.  You could shift some of thsoe units to Eastern if you like.

    Here is the Russian forces you face in R2:
    West Russia Stack:  6 INF, 2 ART, 1 ARM
    Caucuses:  5 INF, 1 ARM, 2 FIG
    Archangel:  1 INF
    Russia:  2 ARM

    That is almost DEAD even, INF for INF, ARM for ARM in central Europe.  But Germany will ONLY have 3 replacement units to send east on G2.  Russia has 8 from R1, 8 more coming in R2.

    And dead even is fine… IF UK were not going to drop 6 divisions backed up by 3 AF units on UK2, and if the US was not going to able to start landing 4 units plus AF in US2.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Pencil me in for game 4.  😄

    Don’t be so stodgy, your analysis is fine based on what you would do, but you can’t predict what I’ll do, the great thing about this game is it’s unpredictability.  After round 1 who knows what the board will look like.  In any case under your scenario you’d be throwing everything at Germany (they could never withstand that no matter what they bought) meanwhile Japan will be knocking at russia’s back door.  :lol:


  • Everything except 6 INF from Russia, 4 INF and a FIG from the US, plus any assorted AF flown in , IC’s built, etc.

    And Japan can;t get that much onto the contient in a couple of rounds… they only have 1 TRN on J1…

    OK, pencilled in for a future game.  We’ll go ahead and set it with you as Axis now so you can test your German uber-navy 🙂

  • 2007 AAR League

    LOL…your on.  :mrgreen: (just wanted to use this Icon, I haven’t seen hair like that since i was in high school!)


  • I think a better investment is to buy an AC for the mediteranean fleet. 😛

  • 2007 AAR League

    I’ve played a few games where i’ve purchased a 2nd carrier for the med, but haven’t ever put one there on G1.  What do you do about your baltic fleet?

  • 2007 AAR League

    I find it critical to build an AC in the Med If you are playing a KGF. Landlocked Germany is no good. The baltic fleet is cannon fodder to attack allied ships with your planes. I usually defend that as well by buying a destroyer… just to try things out.

  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    I usually operate under the theory that any Navy for Germany except for the Baltic AC and a few Baltic transports is money out the window. As the Allies my second axiom is “Sink the German Navy as soon as practical.”


  • “Sink the German Navy as soon as practical.”

    Right you are!

    What´s your first axiom?

  • 2007 AAR League

    @xenon:

    “Sink the German Navy as soon as practical.”

    Right you are!

    What´s your first axiom?

    It’s probably take out his capital as quick as you can! 😛 😄

  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    Take out the capital as soon as you can is my goal.  My axioms are things I try to keep in my mind to acheive my goal.

    1st Axiom  “When in doubt as to what to buy, buy INF.”

    2nd Axiom “Sink any naval units you can as soon as practical and that is still to slow.”

    3rd Axiom “See that your naval units don’t meet Davy Jones alone.”

    4th Axiom “All other axioms are useless if you don’t defend your capital.”

    5th Axiom "Stay on target. Pick a goal and stick to it.

    6th Axiom “Be more concerned with the sure paths to defeat than the uncertain paths to victory.”

    D. Fox might wish to take No 4 to heart.  :evil:

    I would be curious to hear any axioms that any one else has. I would also be curious to any thoughts on my axioms.

  • 2007 AAR League

    My axioms are:

    1st Axiom  Don’t do something stupid.

    2nd Axiom If you did something stupid, don’t do it again.

    3rd Axiom If you’re still doing the same stupid thing…STOP!!!

    4th Axiom If you can’t stop doing the same stupid thing, lock your game up in the closet.

    :roll:


  • When you are pulling all of your forces out of your capital to move them somewhere, and you are ABSOLUTELY SURE that no enemy units can reach…  and you have triple checked and NOTHING can reach…

    Leave a couple of INF behind… just in case you missed something 🙂

    (I lost a game of Classic that way once…)

  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    jsp4563 that is an excellent set and I will be adopting number one as one of my own axioms. Perhaps this should have its own thread?

  • 2007 AAR League

    @jsp4563:

    My axioms are:

    1st Axiom  Don’t do something stupid.

    2nd Axiom If you did something stupid, don’t do it again.

    3rd Axiom If you’re still doing the same stupid thing…STOP!!!

    4th Axiom If you can’t stop doing the same stupid thing, lock your game up in the closet.

    :roll:

    I’ll admit to the first one for sure.  Although, my mistake was more… an oversight than anything.  😛 Which, of course, cost me the capital in the second round, from whcih I was never never never able to recover fully. 😮

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