Sealion: win-win or a dead end?



  • I am beginning to see the proper def for UK when faced with a sealion strategy.  Against a 2 trn 1 cv build you move all remaining assets to sz 92 with a blocker in sz93.  You move all starting units in london to scotland.  This means a G2 invasion of Scotland is suicide, 4 inf aa gun 2-3 ftrs.  London meanwhile can still be held with your 9 inf purchase and 1 ftr from the med.

    If Germany builds more than 2 trns, then you leave Scotland invitingly open so that you can pounce on the Germ fleet when it moves off scotland.  Also UK2 you can move another surface ship into the English Channel to stop bombardment or alternately put your remaining naval assets in the English Channel so that Germany has to attack the ships and London if he wants a G3 invasion.

    Stopping a G4 invasion seems much more difficult though.



  • @JimmyHat:

    I am beginning to see the proper def for UK when faced with a sealion strategy.  Against a 2 trn 1 cv build you move all remaining assets to sz 92 with a blocker in sz93.  You move all starting units in london to scotland.  This means a G2 invasion of Scotland is suicide, 4 inf aa gun 2-3 ftrs.  London meanwhile can still be held with your 9 inf purchase and 1 ftr from the med.

    If Germany builds more than 2 trns, then you leave Scotland invitingly open so that you can pounce on the Germ fleet when it moves off scotland.  Also UK2 you can move another surface ship into the English Channel to stop bombardment or alternately put your remaining naval assets in the English Channel so that Germany has to attack the ships and London if he wants a G3 invasion.

    Stopping a G4 invasion seems much more difficult though.

    Not necessarily, UK can keep building defence (depending on German purchases and the urgency of their threat that doesn’t have to be all INF anymore, defensive units that can be used ofdfensively later on: Artillery (since you got alot of inf there), an occasional fighter and/or even fleet if you gather your remaining ships and Germany has not enough naval/air force).

    I think it gets harder for Germany when they wait longer (assuming UK doesn’t become reckless). For a G4 germany will like japan to hold off long enough and that is bad for them since India and Anzac would get the time to become strong, and if USA is in the war sooner, they can help London out (sending some troops and/or a few fighters for example)



  • @KillOFzee:

    Special Forces, I do not attack with my Battleship and cruiser. You’re right, the Russian Battleship can move to block my landing in G2, but that still doesn’t stop the British from abandoning Taranto. I still would be able to land in Leningrad on turn 3, which I would have to do anyway if the Russians built up in Leningrad. And If they don’t defend Leningrad in turn 2, It will it make it easier when I land in G3.

    Ah okay, have never seen that happen, so when you said you destroyed the UK navy i assumed you’d include these strong units and park everything in SZ113.



  • G1 purchase: CV,DD,SS

    What do you guys do as the UK if Germany comes in force to SZ 110 and takes out the British BB?

    Let’s assume you didn’t scramble because the Germans brought 5-6 planes. Many people like SZ 92 to consolidate with fleet from SZ 98. I did this (and had that UK BB too in this case) and my opponent strafed me with Italy for one turn and landed a small force in Algeria to allow the German air force to wipe out all Brit ships AND fighters since I scrambled at Gibraltar, then land German planes safely in Algeria.

    The Brits were wiped out. The Germans took heavy air losses, but now the UK was much easier to invade without the RAF to defend. So I’m not convinced SZ 92 is safe UK1, especially with no battleships. If you don’t scramble from Gib, then its even easier for the Germans to crush the fleet. If you do scramble, you will lose many fighters and not have enough to defend the UK properly.

    Even worse is that after Sealion, the Germans and Italians consolidate their fleet at SZ 91. Now the US must spend in the Atlantic and have two rather mediocre navy’s on either side that can’t do much for a few rounds but defend until the US can outspend the Axis on navy.



  • Use a blocker dd in sz 93 next time Herb.  That and the french fleet off Toulon means the Italians cannot hit you.



  • You must mean block SZ 94.

    Sometimes my opponent likes to clear those French ships on G1 in Sz 93. So that’s one extra UK ship needed to block.

    Let’s assume the Brit fleet in Sz 110 is sunk G1. That leaves the UK in SZ 92 with ~ 2 CA, 1 CV, 4 FTR, 1 TAC since two DD are need to block SZ 93 and 94.

    Even without the Italian strafe, the Germans airstrike Sz 92 and crush it. I mentioned the paradox of UK scramble at Gib in my last post.

    I play against an aggressive player, and he will attack a under-defended UK fleet and trade for planes if it means putting the UK out of the game.

    And if Taranto is a no-go because the Germans landed planes in S Italy, then I guess the UK has no choice but to retreat its Sz 98 fleet towards the Pacific.



  • @Gargantua:

    It’s a dead end.  But you have to threaten it.

    Unless they do something stupid.

    hello gargantua,

    can you please explain why you came to this conclusion? it would be helpful to this discussion, i guess.

    rock`n roll

    @all: thanx for joining this thread. 🙂



  • If they don’t then the Brits can do more harm in Africa and the Med.



  • hello xandax,

    thanx for answering. i am sorry that it took time to answer. have a “hard” weekend behind  me. 😄

    okay back to topic:

    @Xandax:

    Well, you assume Russia will fall if you go in G1 and will win the game.

    no, never before G2! and yes i assume a decent attack on G2 only russia will win this game for the axis.
    i write this knowing that extreme dice rolls kill every strategy.

    @Xandax:

    Mobilize to take England is a strategy. If you want the tactical play-by-play per turn,  then I will not give you a play-by-play of each turn from 1 to 7 simply because it is irrelevant and each move can be questioned when having the perfect information with “But why did England not do X in turn 1, so you couldn’t do Y in turn 5”. Such discussions never serve anything. It is the overall picture that we’re talking.

    may be you got me wrong. i don´t want EVERYTHING in detail, but some more detailed info than everything you wrote in this thread, this post included. so i have to come to the conclusion that you do not follow a decent strategy, instead, that you follow just the buys your opponents do. i hope i am wrong!

    look it is easy to do what i requested: example… G1 buy this and that, clear sea from uk, build up for xyz in you-kno-where. G2. because of this and that, and assuming the outcome of…i buy…etc. it is possible and you actually don´t need to clarify it once more, that it is not. a GENERAL outline with some aspects - call it stages, if you like - on which you would lay a focus. can you do this to me? thanx in advance. 😉

    @Xandax:

    It is literally simple enough. Taking England does not loose the war.
    The strategy is simple. If wanting to do Sealion - do it in G2 or G3 if possible. If not wanting to do Sealion, don’t.

    i agree with your last sentence, not with the first one. but we know this already. so it is getting reptitive. i stop with repeating that here. 😉

    @Xandax:

    It is your claim that it is an automatic loss that’s the strange bit because I’ve never once seen anything to say it is an automatic loss. It all hinges on that you can win taking Russia without taking England, but that does in no way, shape or form, infer that taking England means you can’t win.
    You’re free to believe it if you want, but a belief does not make it true for anybody else.

    ok, you got me wrong. 😉

    @Xandax:

    Seeing as you have no transport, have shown that you wish to move into Russia (possible even building the Romanian factory)- there’s no reason to defend England for two turns minimum.

    well i sea a reason and i call it 60 IPCs in german hands.

    @Xandax:

    Buy some navy and buy some planes to rule the sea, buy some troops in South Africa. Take Norway or Denmark after a few rounds of navy just to disrupt. Fly planes to Russia to defend.

    no need for repeating the same answer, but to ask, how you want to fly planes from UK to russia (except bombers)? the answer should be interesting, i guess. 😉

    @Xandax:

    No need to spend all your IPCs on infantry for two rounds. If England does this (buys infantry) regardless of Germany move in your games, well - then I understand why England is ignored by you because then they truly set themselves up to be irrelevant in the European scene.

    well, i never wrote “all infantry”…but to build up invasion forces does not make anyone irrevant, especially not the UK in this game.

    @Xandax:

    If Germany starts buying transports at turn 3 or 4, it’s easy enough to build up infantry at that time after the transport purchase - unless England already rules the sea and air.
    And if you wain until turn 6 or 7 or later - there’s a large possibility USA will have all but contained Japan enough that they can start fortify England with planes or put out a navy to scare off any invasion fleet or move into the Med.

    this, of course, would be definitely too late, if not properly done, which means building a huge navy the same round. but actually it is not needed, because you can defend the continent in this situation quite well for some rounds. better than with navy only. so no need for transports.

    @Xandax:

    @rock`n:

    @Xandax:

    USA will have to react to England’s capture or be push right out of European theatre thus potentially giving Japan more free reigns. Effectively Sealion forces the USA to split resources in a much higher degree than otherwise, something Japan usually will benefit from.

    “potentially”…there you have it. but not really. the one way or another, london will fall soon back to allied´s hands and therefor is not this much needed to get this done. even to deny a german recapture it is only needed to take or block denmark (italy left aside here).

    Everything is potential in this game. It’s potential you’ll take Russia without Sealion and it’s only potential that London will “fall soon back” as well.
    And even if London is retaken, you’ve forced enough dedication of resources not used elsewhere. As said - getting the USA out of the Pacific is a major boon for Japan. The USA going all-in in the Pacific is hard on Japan. Just as USA going all-in in Europe, is hard on Germany/Italy. Splitting up the US benefits both Axis sides very much.
    I’m not here to convince you to do Sealion, I’m here to challenge your notion that it is automatic loss for Axis.

    first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.
    second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.

    that is what i got, no offense!

    rock`n roll



  • thanx for your answer, jimihat. i appreciate it. 🙂

    let´s get it on…:
    @JimmyHat:

    After a successful Sealion I like to leave my fleet in the north sea and invade the arctic ocean so that I can reach Novgorod and save Norway/finland from the russians.  I will go through the baltic if I can hit the Russian bb in the process.  G4 is the round after the fall of England, usually my fleet is consolidating in the northsea, bringing some remaining tanks from England back to Europe.

    I think the biggest thing to keep Germany alive is your G4 purchase.  Most likely you’re going to need a ftr or 2 that you lost over England, also a dd to block the US fleet when the time is right.  Everything else should go towards armor with perhaps 4 inf.  This purchase means that when Russia advances into Europe you already will have a nice counter punch. G5 and on build inf.  If Russia lunges too far into Europe, count a win for Germany, you can land in novogorod and beat his army back to Mosocow.  This happened in one of my games, he threw 8 armor and a bunch of inf into Yugo.  We traded the balkans for a while and he put a heavy threat on NItaly, but my Germ army was marching to moscow and captured it.

    I also tend to get art early for Germany, I’ll actually stack more art than inf in my lead stack.  Thats because in later rounds, when I have novgorod from my trns fleet I can build inf there and mechs in Germany to use the artillery bonus.

    Lastly, when you approach Moscow you might find the need to switch to a southerly axis to capture Stalingrad before hitting Moscow.  This is where mech inf are really going to come in handy, and perhaps an Italian can opener or two.

    1.) you really want to invade the arctic ocean? or did you mean atlantic ocean? i hope so 😉 if yes, how? subs?

    2.) if a russian player is this stupid then he has to loose. as russia noone can withstand against the axis in the balcans. i´d maybe attack romania or karelia, but nothing more, because of getting defeated so easily by a newly built german force.

    3.) so you build mostly infantry. ok. this means, if built in G5, as you mentioned it, G6 in leningrad, at earliest in moscow at G9, then. right? a landing in leningrad in G5 can be delayed by the russian BB. so you´ll be in leningrad on G6, not earlier. etc. but i agree with you, IF russia leaves a big stack in leningrad AND gets defeated, then the count is on.

    in your case til round 10. good luck! 😉 (assuming the US gets japan contained in 6 rounds, then it is going to say bye-bye to an axis win in europe too.)

    rock`n roll



  • last, but not least. 🙂
    thahanx for answering.

    @KillOFzee:

    Rock’n’Roll, on my first turn, I buy three transports, 1 sub, and 1 inf. I destroy the entire North Atlantic Fleet, Capture France, and move 15+ inf on the front line.

    then you have a BB, a cruiser and sub plus three fighters for defence in w.germany or sz 112, right? i don´t know if i would risk my fleet this way…a cruiser, 4 fighters in range to attack. i´d say your fleet will be sunk. so  no sea-lion anyway. am i mistaken?
    if you leave the german fleet in sz 113 the cruiser is good block for a G2-sealion.

    @KillOFzee:

    Second turn: If England builds 10 inf and does Taranto, i invade England with 3 tanks, 4 inf, and 1 art. I also send 3 fighters, 3 tact bombers, and 1 strat bomber.

    see above.

    @KillOFzee:

    That’s a total combat value of 44. The English would have a combat value of (10 inf @ 2 + 4 3 fighters @ 4) 32. I also have naval bombardment. This means England MUST abandon Taranto and move to sz 112 to prevent a G2 Sea-lion.

    why? the taranto-fleet (alpha 2+) is positioned at egypt the could not get to germany anyway. the cruiser at gibraltar is the counter plus planes. sea above 😉 no need to abandon taranto-raids.

    @KillOFzee:

    If the English DID block Sea-lion than I simply invade Russia. If Leningrad is heavily defended with “20 infantry plus 1 or 2 artillery, maybe a tank and 2 fighters and a tactical,” than #1 I land in Vyborg and allow for a PENTA(?)* attack into Leningrad on Turn 3, and #2 I Send armor and mechs in south Russia to capture the more valuable territory.

    okay landing, only, IF the above did not happen. another point: to split up the attacking force in russia is a bad idea, imho. it gets easily defeated there. you only have a chance as germany, if you have ony ONE BIG stack.

    @KillOFzee:

    So if I take Leningrad on turn 3, that only leaves 3 turns to get to Russia itself. I will also be able to ferry more units in directly from Germany into Lenningrad for more Firepower in Russia.

    right-

    @KillOFzee:

    *My FIVE pronged attack will come from:
    1. My main force in the Baltic States (9 inf, 4 art) Combat value = 21
    2. The 3 tanks, 4 inf, and 1 art from England which I landed in Vyborg in G2  (C. V. = 16)
    3. 6 inf from Finland to Karelia (Combat value = 6)
    4. An amphibious assault with the transports, picking up units from Germany and moving directly into Leningrad, could be a combo of different units, 4 inf 4 art most likely (C. V. = 16) Plus Naval bombardment.
    5. The remaining Luftwaffe, 3 fighters, 3 tac bombers, 1 strat bomber (C.V. 25)
    Total Combat Value (21 + 16 + 6 + 16 + 25) = 84 Almost unstoppable
    So if and when the Leningrad garrison is destroyed, it’s a clear path to Russia. I don’t care if my navy (which I only invested 27 IPCs in) is stuck in the Baltic sea. That’s all I want from it.

    okay, landing on G2 in vyborg etc. is impossible sake of the russian fleet blocking. but you can land `em in the baltic AFTER the russian fleet went down and you captured the baltic states. so is no PENTA, “just” QUAD. 😉 since there would not be any german transport it goes down to TRIA. and this can get made DIA if a strafing attack in the baltic is made successfully. AND russia is able to counterattack the same round the karelia-“stack”. but i wouldn´t recommend a double-counter. just one. which one? depends the outcome of G1. i´d tend towards karelia, because this way it is easier to take germany a NO away and gain points as Russia since there is no german fleet.

    right or wrong? we´ll see,

    greetings
    rock`n roll



  • @rock`n:

    first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.

    Because otherwise the west coast lies open to invasion forces from Italy/Germany.
    The US better not continue to dump resources into Pacific if there’s no block between Germany and mainland.

    And well -

    @rock`n:

    second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.

    that is what i got, no offense!

    rock`n roll

    I’ve not really seen anything to suggest it is a loosing strategy to take England, other than it being repeated numerous times.
    Taking an enemy out of the game can never be a loosing strategy.



  • @Xandax:

    @rock`n:

    first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.

    Because otherwise the west coast lies open to invasion forces from Italy/Germany.
    The US better not continue to dump resources into Pacific if there’s no block between Germany and mainland.

    And well -

    @rock`n:

    second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.

    that is what i got, no offense!

    rock`n roll

    I’ve not really seen anything to suggest it is a loosing strategy to take England, other than it being repeated numerous times.
    Taking an enemy out of the game can never be a loosing strategy.

    Failing to take England would count as a loosing strategy 😉



  • back again 🙂

    thanx for replying, xandax. i hope, you don´t get annoyed by me insisting in details etc. 😉 i like this discussion since it gave me some valid points worth trying something different sake of a fun game. thanx for that.

    but here we go:

    @Xandax:

    @rock`n:

    first of all, a sealion does not “get the USA out of the pacific”. why you assume this? strange to me, this is why i ask.

    Because otherwise the west coast lies open to invasion forces from Italy/Germany.
    The US better not continue to dump resources into Pacific if there’s no block between Germany and mainland.

    hmmm…maybe i should clarify this.
    it is huge difference between going 100% pacific, mostly pacific, 50/50, mostly europe and 100% europe. a large scale the US can cover. and well, most likely a sealion-maneuver will occure on G3, so the US can prepare properly. because the “cards are shown” by the germans.
    well, i believe, that germany looses too much in troops etc. that the US won´t need so much to invest to get all done, what has to be done: taking back london and sinking a small german navy
    what it is then exactly depends on the buys of the axis player(s).

    @Xandax:

    @rock`n:

    second, i have to admit, that til today you did not challenge my notion in any way. you just kept repeating your opinion without any basis, just repeating that it works, what you propose, and therefor it worked, because you proposed it.

    that is what i got, no offense!

    rock`n roll

    I’ve not really seen anything to suggest it is a loosing strategy to take England, other than it being repeated numerous times.
    Taking an enemy out of the game can never be a loosing strategy.

    hmm, then you have overlooked my two arguments:

    a) ECONOMY: economicly spoken, sealion is a desaster. you invest too much in somewhat you loose soon after having taken. any IPCs taken from the UK-europe is not enough to compensate the loss of valuable troops, planes and your navy. you take london with a huge effort just to loose it for - in comparison to the effort done - mostly no cost to the US and the other allies.

    b) TIME: you waste time in achieving which at last you have to achieve anyway. taking all three russian cities and cairo to win. you give as a present to russia 111 IPCs to 148 IPCs to build up a decent defensive force which is able to contain germany. not to win, but to contain!

    c) STRATEGY: it is already hard to win on the europe-stand-alone-board. in global it is even harder. so the chances to win via sealion TEND to zero. i know there is still a little possibility to win, but only due to lucky dices, which - imho - represents NO winning strategy. too many battles with an 50/50 outcome, no sure “things” etc. so it is likely that you loose more than you win with it. (just like “special forces” commented it).

    rock`n roll.

    P.S.: but it is fun to take london. 😄 so i do this, but if i am determined to win, i leave it aside.
    P.P.S.: did you study my barbarossa-scheme? what do think about it?



  • 1.) you really want to invade the arctic ocean? or did you mean atlantic ocean? i hope so 😉 if yes, how? subs?

    ***you need trns to invade in A&A, not subs.  Arctic ocean is great for Germany to operate in, only Russia can fight there with precious aircraft…

    2.) if a russian player is this stupid then he has to loose. as russia noone can withstand against the axis in the balcans. i´d maybe attack romania or karelia, but nothing more, because of getting defeated so easily by a newly built german force.

    ***Yeah, like I said, it was a mistake to move heavy into Yugo as Russia.  Although he did get some benefit from it because Italy all of a sudden could not ship units to Africa, they were all needed to defend NItaly.

    3.) so you build mostly infantry. ok. this means, if built in G5, as you mentioned it, G6 in leningrad, at earliest in moscow at G9, then. right? a landing in leningrad in G5 can be delayed by the russian BB. so you´ll be in leningrad on G6, not earlier. etc. but i agree with you, IF russia leaves a big stack in leningrad AND gets defeated, then the count is on.

    ***well I said I like to build arty guns, more arty than inf in fact.  That way when I approach and capture Russian ics I can build inf from them to go with my arty stack.  Also troops from London reinforce Norway G4.  G5 they take Finland back, and you counter invade Kar/Archangel/Lenningrad from Arctic ocean…

    First I want to say that in all the games I’ve played with a successful sealion, the US has never recaptured London.  I’m not saying its impossible, I am sure that if US went 100% atlantic they might be able to get into London, but it really is easy for Germany to hold it.

    I’ll give you a run down of my moves, starting from the invasion.  G3 invasion of England.  G4 fleet brings some troops back to Europe to deal with Russian incursion, sink Russian bb if possible but it probably now moves out to block Germ fleet.  G5, sink russian bb, invade via Arctic ocean because Russia cannot block there and it is only 3 spaces from WGerm.  Also thanks to SeaLion I have 12-13 trns, so I can even send a few off to die if it means I get some mobility out of them.  Also G5 I shoulder up to Romania and vacate Yugo, hoping to draw russians into the Balkans where they do not get 3 extra ipcs for capturing a territory.  G6 fleet returns to Atlantic.  Usually my CV and a dd plus any remaining subs are on station trying to put pressure on Gib.  With the addition of my CA and BB now I have a real force.  I should mention that I like to leave my lvl bmbs and 1 ftr 1 tac on London to support the fleet. G7 is an invasion of Gibraltar and meshing of the German and Italian fleets into a large defensive fleet in Gibraltarsz.

    All this is predicated on a US strat that is not 100% Atlantic.  If it is 50% or less then the axis have the war in hand and do not have to worry about the US until US 8, and by then the Axis have a stranglehold on the EUSsz.  Now of course there are going to be counters, but the US would have to know in advance that I plan on holding the Atlantic on lockdown and slowly grinding down Russia.



  • back again. 😄

    @JimmyHat:

    Arctic ocean is great for Germany to operate in, only Russia can fight there with precious aircraft…

    what kind of operation do you suggest?

    @JimmyHat:

    ***well I said I like to build arty guns, more arty than inf in fact.  That way when I approach and capture Russian ics I can build inf from them to go with my arty stack.  Also troops from London reinforce Norway G4.  G5 they take Finland back, and you counter invade Kar/Archangel/Lenningrad from Arctic ocean….

    but it is a real slow approach into russia! it takes too much time, doesn´t it? so you need to be real sure about not being harrassad on the other side of the continent, which is quite possible on round 5. what do you think?

    @JimmyHat:

    First I want to say that in all the games I’ve played with a successful sealion, the US has never recaptured London.  I’m not saying its impossible, I am sure that if US went 100% atlantic they might be able to get into London, but it really is easy for Germany to hold it.

    please explain to me, how you would do this. you can build only 3 troops per round, the navy is not really strong etc. i doubt this statement england being easy to defend…

    @JimmyHat:

    I’ll give you a run down of my moves, starting from the invasion.   G3 invasion of England.  G4 fleet brings some troops back to Europe to deal with Russian incursion, sink Russian bb if possible but it probably now moves out to block Germ fleet.  G5, sink russian bb, invade via Arctic ocean because Russia cannot block there and it is only 3 spaces from WGerm.  Also thanks to SeaLion I have 12-13 trns, so I can even send a few off to die if it means I get some mobility out of them.  Also G5 I shoulder up to Romania and vacate Yugo, hoping to draw russians into the Balkans where they do not get 3 extra ipcs for capturing a territory.  G6 fleet returns to Atlantic.  Usually my CV and a dd plus any remaining subs are on station trying to put pressure on Gib.

    what do you mean by “shouldering up” romania? i do not get it. and where does the fleet move? to gibraltar or to the seazones around england?

    @JimmyHat:

    With the addition of my CA and BB now I have a real force.  I should mention that I like to leave my lvl bmbs and 1 ftr 1 tac on London to support the fleet. G7 is an invasion of Gibraltar and meshing of the German and Italian fleets into a large defensive fleet in Gibraltarsz.

    this is too obvious, no? by US6 there should already be a considerable force to take down this small german fleet. if not, then a block is easy to install, so i think, that a G7-capture of gibraltar is nothing more than a nice idea…

    @JimmyHat:

    All this is predicated on a US strat that is not 100% Atlantic.  If it is 50% or less then the axis have the war in hand and do not have to worry about the US until US 8, and by then the Axis have a stranglehold on the EUSsz.  Now of course there are going to be counters, but the US would have to know in advance that I plan on holding the Atlantic on lockdown and slowly grinding down Russia.

    the hold of the atlantic is your only chance to win since your strategy needs a lot of time! 5 turns only to touch russian borders!
    but what do you mean by " a US strat not 100% atlantic"? (finally, it is never 100%, isn´t it? 😉 )

    but it depends on what turn the US will be thrown into the war. maybe round three. or other way round: 6 rounds time to take london and denying an axis victory by liberating cairo or rome. it depends on the outcome of the german approach into russia.

    i think, it is an interesting idea you have, but it fails to put a real pressure on the allied side, because russia can fortify its holdings for four turns (148 IPCs!!! plus troops worth 185 IPCs from the beginning) before it get scratched a bit on the surface and keeping this way germany contained. a decent counter-attack there can crush any advance then. depends on your moves where from it would happen, from belarus i guess, because you go mostly via northern routes.

    even if you get 64 IPCs (London, scotland, normandy, france, finland, bulgaria, yugoslavia inluded) before taking over any russian territory it won´t help. conquering london is not done without considerable losses of planes etc. you need two turns to muster land-troops getting on an equal level with russia before being able to outproduce them, which means turn 6 at earliest. meanwhile russia can gain up to 42 IPCs, and if being able to conquer finland and romania even more: 50!

    Russia also has a good chance to harass you in norway, not winning, but buying time with this, forcing germany to split forces, which results in more time being able to defend the capital and helping the US to free London. to hold london - if it is your idea to do so - germany has to split its income. another help for russia and the allies in whole.

    til round 3 or 4 the US can build up - slowlier or faster - a better fleet than germany would be able to destroy. so retaking london is only a matter of time, turning a big german effort - sealion - into dust.

    but we would have to try it out, wouldn´t we? 😉

    greetings

    rock`n roll



  • I’ll try and answer some of these questions, but some of them are answered in the previous post.

    I run in the Arctic fleet units that I need to reach Novogrod and take it.  So it has been all my trns before plus a defending CV, however it has also been 2 trns I used to capture Novgorod just to be a pain.  The arctic ocean is arguably the best way to invade Russia, because it is on an extreme flank and you might be able to bypass the Russian army, or at least force it back.

    Yes, my offensive against Russia is designed to wear down Russia and /then/ take them out.  Its not a fast campaign.  Once you reach the environs of Moscow you have to tread very carefully and wait for your reinforcements or an Italian can opener to advance.  The good news about this strategy is that Russia can be crippled once you reach this line.

    I have no problem holding London, remember I usually will only hit london if I could land in Scotland G2 with 5 inf aa gun.  This means I can hold London with a purchase of 2-3 inf a round plus an arm or dd, plus my large airforce and that sweet aa gun.  However my main defense of the island comes from the fleet I leave in sz 109.  Usually my cv and 1-2 trns plus a newly purchased dd perhaps.  The only warships needed to clear the baltic and defend those trns are 1 CA 1 dd 1 bb, provided Russia hasn’t been adding to their air force.  London is usually held with 4 inf 2 arm aa gun plus aircraft.

    ‘shouldering up to Romania’ means I try and force Russia into moving into Yugo heavy over Hungary, best way to do this is to move a few inf and arty into SGerm and withdraw from balkans.  Once the baltic is cleared and Lenningrad in German hands the German fleet leaves(some trns might hang around) for the sea south of England.

    Well, by G7 the Italians should already have Gibraltar.  I like to take it after clearing the med.  This will let you stage german aircraft in Gib too.  Also these moves are describing my Germ strat when US goes all pacific, but even a few ships should be no problem for the axis, but once US spends 1-2 rounds of full production on the atlantic, things might get dicey.

    I should mention one other aspect of this strategy, After the fall of Egypt Italy moves on the middle east, forcing some response from the Russians and India and draining troops from the main front against Germ.



  • @JimmyHat:

    Well, by G7 the Italians should already have Gibraltar.  I like to take it after clearing the med.  This will let you stage german aircraft in Gib too.  Also these moves are describing my Germ strat when US goes all pacific, but even a few ships should be no problem for the axis, but once US spends 1-2 rounds of full production on the atlantic, things might get dicey.

    I should mention one other aspect of this strategy, After the fall of Egypt Italy moves on the middle east, forcing some response from the Russians and India and draining troops from the main front against Germ.

    I think many people see the idea of a 100% Pacific strat way too literal.
    Let’s be serious, only an OCD USA player would allow all this and keep going Pacific without any thinking. If they play like that i suggest Axis takes Canada as well, since it’s free.

    In fact, in many of the recent strategy ideas i see around here (not only this thread) seriously ignore/forget any enemy reactions, resistance or counter moves.



  • well thats sorta the point of the European axis advance, to move as close to the US as possible to stymie their produciton.  Thats why I like to take Gibraltar early as Italy.  Also stage German aircraft from there after Sealion.

    The axis have to watch the US coast, but at the same time not goad them into production there.  Thats why I don’t hit Canada.  Thats just asking for US retribution and the capture of those IPCS.  If I was going to exploit the Atlantic more it would be a move on Brazil and SAfrica.



  • Well, i was being sarcastic about taking Canada 😉

    Of course, as Axis there wouldn’t be anything wrong in going after Gibraltar, or controlling the Atlantic, or even snatching brazil.
    But as a US player allowing all this, that would be really really bad play.



  • From Gib. there are a bunch of places to hit  the U.S. (Axis controlled).  I also like Germ. to take S. France it can add stability to the Med, and with Gib. and London and a second Carrier at the S. FR minor IC , stage for the East coast
      My vote is 50/50  some times sealion works and some times it doesnt
      A good Barbarossa along with the elimination of the Royal Navy done early (G2) should get er done baring horrible dice



  • Gentlemen: Very interesting discussion about sealion. Assume G1 builds 4 tr and then attacks UK on G2 with navy. 1st must win naval battle to get there before can use planes against UK proper. If successful, it is a great move. However, history teaches that had Germany used its Luftwaffe against the Mediterrean and taken out Malta it would have conquered Egypt and most of the Pro Axis Near East, especially Iraq giving it all the oil it needed to advance into the USSR and/or threaten India too.

    Query: Why not fortify Denmark with infantry to prevent sea invasion and build 9-10 tanks on G2 and 6 again on G-3 for an invasion of Russia? Can alway keep UK at Bay in the North Sea until USA uses overwhelming force?

    As to the Pacific. Would you attack Russia from the east on J1-and J2?



  • til round 3 you don´t need to fortify denmark, since britain is the only party on the european side that would invade germany by sea. the us is still far away…

    and to build only tanks as germany would do for the first attacks, but later on you will miss your cannon-fodder: infantry or mech. so i´d suggest you buy first artillery, mechs. later some tanks, you already have 8! you just need to mass them up in one country, i.e. east poland…

    and yes. i´d attack russia as japan.



  • @special:

    Well, i was being sarcastic about taking Canada 😉

    Of course, as Axis there wouldn’t be anything wrong in going after Gibraltar, or controlling the Atlantic, or even snatching brazil.
    But as a US player allowing all this, that would be really really bad play.

    i agree with that.

    mostly, because it is not this difficult to keep the axis out of gibraltar.


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