Italy and Alpha2

  • Gents,

    I’ve now played 2 games of global with alpha2, and both times the Italians were virtually industrutible.

    They would basically do the following every time:
    -Shred the UK/French fleets to bits.
    -Use all their barges to unload in Egypt.
    -Battle off with the UK in the middle east and Africa for a bit, ultimately winning quite decisively.
    -Annihilate the french resistance in North Africa.

    Basically by turn 3 they would control all the following territories: Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Morocco, Gibraltar, Algeria, Tunisia, Greece, Southern France. They would therefore make 37 IPC.
    With that they would march onto the middle east, and caucasus, making an additional 15 IPC.
    To a grand total of 52IPC/Turn by turn 5/6

    The only power that could fight them off is the UK but only one minor factory in south africa, and possibly in the middle east, and clearly not enough IPCs, they ultimately get shattered.

    My whole point is that the italian National Objectives are just far too easy to reach, making it a major power quite early on in the game.

    What are your thoughts on this?

  • Sounds like a job for the USA

    edit: i do agree on the NO’s

    edit2: the UK fleet shouldn’t let this happen, either go for the kill or stay out of reach. Too bad for the french fleet.

  • On the UK Fleet:
    When they go for the kill, southern italy is normally reinforced by the a couple German fighters, which can scramble. If the UK actually wins the battle, they have so little left that they just get destroyed on I1.

    If they flee, well the italians simply take control of nothern africa and the Mediterranean on turn 1, as described above.

    Fight or flee is basically a lose-lose situation for the UK….

  • Customizer

    Yeah, I agree that Italy really has the advantage in the Alpha+2 setup.  At first, I was happy to see the extra NOs for Italy and the better navy.  After a few games though, I have also noticed that Italy’s NOs are somewhat easy to attain, compared to other nations, and the UK is really at a disadvantage in the Med., especially with a little German help like a couple of planes on Italy’s airbase and if they sink that UK cruiser in SZ 91.  Too bad the UK couldn’t somehow comandeer those two French ships, then the Med might be a little more balanced.

    In previous setups, I always thought Italy was too weak and couldn’t really get going in the Med or Africa.  Now it seems too easy for them.  Not sure how to fix this though….less ships? … take away an NO?

  • I see.

    Well, North Africa isn’t bad in the long run, those french territories will become british or american, and now and then those french units kill some italians.

    An emm… fleed fleet can be useful later on, but yes, italy, if spared from bad dice, can grow quite nasty for a while.

    1 thing though, when italy sends transports to Egypt while attacking the UK/french fleet, aren’t those transports exposed to the UK fighter in Africa? (or is that one gone in the Alpha? … i really should check those alpha setups, sorry)

  • This Fighter is moved to Malta. But yes, they would be exposed. However, the would probably back them with a ship or two.  Even, if the UK consolidates his fleet with the French, the italian 3 planes, battleship, 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers and 1 sub are plenty enough to space a couple to save the barges.

    Or they could wait 1 turn, which doesn’t make much of difference.

  • SIDE NOTE: My opponent/enemy/best friend and I decided that the UK should also have a 2 IPC bonus for each of the middle east territories, as we assumed it fair that the Brits could also use the oil, and that Axis powers didn’t have a monopoly on fuel powered vehicles.

    It didn’t make a difference.

  • Customizer


    SIDE NOTE: My opponent/enemy/best friend and I decided that the UK should also have a 2 IPC bonus for each of the middle east territories, as we assumed it fair that the Brits could also use the oil, and that Axis powers didn’t have a monopoly on fuel powered vehicles.

    It didn’t make a difference.

    Still, that’s a good idea giving the UK those bonuses for the oil territories.  I’ve always wondered why they didn’t give the UK a couple of more NOs.  They only have two (3 if you count the Calcutta one) and both are really hard to obtain.  Especially the control all original territories one.  I think there should be at least one or two more NOs for UK.
    Also, unless Russia gets really lucky against Germany, they are pretty short on NOs as well.  Except for the 12 ipc one-time bonus if Japan attacks them, there is only the Archangel/SZ 125 NO and all Germany has to do is throw 1 sub up there to ruin that one.  Perhaps Russia should get 3-5 ipcs for holding the Caucasus from the Axis.

  • My thought is that you need more experience. Two games is little to go on, and your UK player shouldn’t be folding so easily.

  • ???
    UK can eliminate italian navy (even with 2 german figs), they can till hold egypt (supported by indian fighters)
    and indian navy with those figthers can still eliminate remain of italian navy

    and people would still give NO’s to british?
    why not give USSR a few million inf then?

  • Italy can become a powerhouse if left completely unchecked by the Allies, but its walls are still paper thin. Knocking down Italy’s NOs is fairly easy since most of those are located at the outer peripheries of the Med. Morocco will not hold long against the US, and a UK factory in Persia (along with the one in SA) should more than threaten Italian possessions in the east Med. The only way for Italy to reinforce its holdings, without spending any of its desperately needed money on a (extremely vulnerable) minor IC, is to use transports. If the Allies do not let Gib fall, they will always be in a position to hit Italy’s fleet anywhere in the Med. As the Allies I’ve always been able to amass a large fleet in the two SZs around Gib, forcing Italy to use blockers to protect its inferior fleet (which is useless once the Americans enter the war) or forcing them to give up Africa and the Middle East completely.

    In general, I believe Italy is pushed into biting off far more than what it can chew. It can become an economic monster, but it will never have the resources to hold on to its far flung and fragile empire.

  • I agree - the advantage is if Italy is if it is left unchecked for a number of rounds. That can lead it to push towards both India and in from South Soviet.
    However if pushed, Italy will struggle keeping control of North Africa and will fold like a card of house.

    Usually I’ve found my Axis doing much better if Italy is pushing the Allies well. It does seem Italy is the soft underbelly of the Axis and if punched - the Axis will run out of steam fast.
    It’s very much up to Japan and Germany to take the heat of Italy, but if it succeeds - Italy can be strong and powerful if allowed.

    In my last OOB game, Italy owned all of Africa, parts of Russia and was pressuring Calcutta more so then Japan was (which were struggling with Anzac and USA). Axis won btw.

  • Italy should never have an easy early game.  They can do well in the mid game if Germ went Sealion and captured London.  Italy should never take Gib I1.  It is in UK’s interest to use those french ships as blockers, and the only way to do that is to block the sz off Tunisia with a UK ship.  Now Italy can not go west, and the capture of Gib is the easiest way for Italy to control the Med.

    My opponent uses his UK fleet units in the Med to slow Italy and force them to be more methodical.  He completely hems in the Italian fleet, putting 1 blocker in sz’s 94,96,99.  He has even put a CV alone or with 1 ftr to try and force Italy to attack that sz instead.  What this does is give UK 2 turns to mess with Italian NO’s, if they can eek out another turn then USA will join the war and take over the role of squashing the Italians.

    On the Mideast NO’s, I think its a horrible idea to have them as allied NO’s.  Considering that in my games 10% of the time Iraq/persia are held by the axis, 10% of the time they are un-captured….80% of the time UK takes Persia UK2, then attacks Iraq UK3 and the Axis never even wander close by.  These ipcs are already UKs, why give them extra per round as an incentive to capture that area?

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