USSR and Japan

Well, the USSR won’t attack Japan unless they leave Korea/Manchuria open and they can’t immediately be counterattacked. If the Euro setup is balanced, those 18 inf can stay in the pacific, which would balance the pacific side

Yeah, I’m thinking the 18 inf will go a long way towards balancing the pacific in the global game. Japan starts off with relatively few ground units, and the Russian presence will force them to leave a good portion of their units behind in Korea/Manchuria, which will hopefully slow down their advances in China and South Asia.

Sorry UN, this isn’t exactly the topic but… I feel that the lack of Soviet presence is what caused Pacific 40 to be a failure (as a game) in many people’s minds. I know that IL doesn’t agree entirely that the outcome will change in Global; Japan will still run over everyone in the Pacific. However I feel that a strong Soviet deterrent will not allow Japan to expand so uncontrollably. They still may be able to foucus attention oon India and take it. However, China will not be so easy to take. If the USSR is able (physically and financially) to build an IC somewhere in Asia… it will be interesting.

As for if it would be wise; I believe Japan could take Eastern Russian forces out, but they’d have to do it as quick as possible. Perhaps even devoting most of their Asian forces for 2 turns. Would I do this in my first game? Likely no.

@LHoffman:

Sorry UN, this isn’t exactly the topic but… I feel that the lack of Soviet presence is what caused Pacific 40 to be a failure (as a game) in many people’s minds. I know that IL doesn’t agree entirely that the outcome will change in Global; Japan will still run over everyone in the Pacific. However I feel that a strong Soviet deterrent will not allow Japan to expand so uncontrollably. They still may be able to foucus attention oon India and take it. However, China will not be so easy to take. If the USSR is able (physically and financially) to build an IC somewhere in Asia… it will be interesting.

As for if it would be wise; I believe Japan could take Eastern Russian forces out, but they’d have to do it as quick as possible. Perhaps even devoting most of their Asian forces for 2 turns. Would I do this in my first game? Likely no.

I think it’s unbalanced because Japan can kill the transports of Singapore on J1. Maybe they missed that?

Isn’t there a new setup for Global. Like, you don’t just combine the setups for Euro and Pac… Couldn’t this fact leave hope that the Global version will be more balanced than Pacific is?

@LHoffman:

Isn’t there a new setup for Global. Like, you don’t just combine the setups for Euro and Pac… Couldn’t this fact leave hope that the Global version will be more balanced than Pacific is?

I think the setup will be the same, except for the 18 inf in Siberia and maybe having 1-2 British Inf in Egypt changed to ANZAC

@calvinhobbesliker:

@LHoffman:

Isn’t there a new setup for Global. Like, you don’t just combine the setups for Euro and Pac… Couldn’t this fact leave hope that the Global version will be more balanced than Pacific is?

I think the setup will be the same, except for the 18 inf in Siberia and maybe having 1-2 British Inf in Egypt changed to ANZAC

Hmmm… interesting.

Well, getting back to the topic: I predict that in 70% of games played Japan and Russia will not fight each other on the Korea-Manchuria border. It will be too costly and time consuming for Japan and Russia can’t hope to attack fighters with infantry and win. But this is largely based on previous experience in this area. The game dynamics for Global 40 might be slightly different than what I’m used to.    Still… 70%.

You forget Mongolia. I think we can be sure of the Mongolian setup being the same for Global as it was in AAP40. We cannot be sure about if the Mongolian rules for Global are going to be the shame (sorry, the same  :roll:) that were in AAP40, but even if they are not going to be the same and Mongolia acts as a real life country, those are 6 infs to add to the total. That means a very wide USSR/Japan front with 24 units if Japan decides attack USSR

OK, I’ll be pessimist (or realist  :-P ) and I’ll guess we are going to suffer the same crappy rules that we had in AAP40 for neutrals/China. If so:

• Japan can ignore any type of attacks from chinamen and also from mongoliamen, so soviets will have to fight for Mongolia and Siberia alone, without any aid from China or Mongolia
• Let’s imagine that Japan has advantage and can choose when attack USSR. Probably that means buying a Manchuria IC J1, toasting chinamen by J4-5 and having free hands for Manchukuo troops to storm Siberia at pleasure. Then, Japan could use her starting strat bombers to make the trades with USSR without losing much navy power (SBs are tricky to use in fleet battles) with a frontline of 3 territories. I’ll assume that soviet units from Amur will evacuate it J2 or J3 as much, so you can guess that the 2 mongoliamen at Buyant will be easy prey. The other 4 mongoliamen are a bit safer, but if Mongolia is not pro-allies (high chance), soviet troops cannot stack with them: they must attack and kill the mongoliamen or wait for Japan do the dirty job. Any case, mongoliamen are not going to aid allied cause very much. USSR will have then a difficult dilema: try fighting Siberia with inferior forces (maybe distracting a fighter from Germany) or ignoring Siberia and making it a great IPC source for Japan and a big IPC sink for USSR. Any case, bad news
• Let’s imagine the oppositte scenario: Japan has disadvantage and, after mopping China, they have not enough resources to fight the soviet troops. Then, soviets can be gamey, attack Dza (1 inf), ignore all the rest of mongoliamen totally and open a new front against Japan in China, and Japan cannot make use of those 6 mongoliamen that in a real world would join Japan or at least defend as a whole country

Any case is highly probable that without a non-agression rule Japan and USSR will fight, and soon, and that is going to unbalance the whole Asian theater unless testers did a superb good job, all just because Larry likes senseless ACME walls everywhere and dislikes a historical non-agression pact rule. Given the last results with the testing in AA50 and AAP40, my bet is a great failure

Resume: we have not two separate fronts (China vs Japan & USSR vs Japan), in fact Mongolia is the center of the Soviet-China-Japan front and it’s open to gamey exploits because of poor rules

Prediction: we’ll have to mod the neutral rules and make a non-agression pact house rule

Well, Larry said he tried an all out attack on Russia with Japan and failed. But I didn’t hear anything about Mongolia. We’ll have to see

I’ve said this from the beginning, but I have yet to get any opinions on it. Soviet infantry will make the game harder for Japan, because they force Japanese troops to stay in place in Manchuria instead of steamrolling China. Also, they can liberate Chinese territories in the west after Japan has conquered them, to which China can then add infantry. In short, Japan loses some initial momentum against China and India. Later in the game, If China and India fall, Japan is forced to leave troops on the mainland to guard against the Soviets, and therefore cannot swing all their forces east into the DEI area. I agree with the statement that Soviet units are the missing piece to a balanced game in the Pacific.

@Funcioneta:

You forget Mongolia. I think we can be sure of the Mongolian setup being the same for Global as it was in AAP40. We cannot be sure about if the Mongolian rules for Global are going to be the shame (sorry, the same  :roll:) that were in AAP40, but even if they are not going to be the same and Mongolia acts as a real life country, those are 6 infs to add to the total. That means a very wide USSR/Japan front with 24 units if Japan decides attack USSR

OK, I’ll be pessimist (or realist  :-P ) and I’ll guess we are going to suffer the same crappy rules that we had in AAP40 for neutrals/China. If so:

• Japan can ignore any type of attacks from chinamen and also from mongoliamen, so soviets will have to fight for Mongolia and Siberia alone, without any aid from China or Mongolia
• Let’s imagine that Japan has advantage and can choose when attack USSR. Probably that means buying a Manchuria IC J1, toasting chinamen by J4-5 and having free hands for Manchukuo troops to storm Siberia at pleasure. Then, Japan could use her starting strat bombers to make the trades with USSR without losing much navy power (SBs are tricky to use in fleet battles) with a frontline of 3 territories. I’ll assume that soviet units from Amur will evacuate it J2 or J3 as much, so you can guess that the 2 mongoliamen at Buyant will be easy prey. The other 4 mongoliamen are a bit safer, but if Mongolia is not pro-allies (high chance), soviet troops cannot stack with them: they must attack and kill the mongoliamen or wait for Japan do the dirty job. Any case, mongoliamen are not going to aid allied cause very much. USSR will have then a difficult dilema: try fighting Siberia with inferior forces (maybe distracting a fighter from Germany) or ignoring Siberia and making it a great IPC source for Japan and a big IPC sink for USSR. Any case, bad news
• Let’s imagine the oppositte scenario: Japan has disadvantage and, after mopping China, they have not enough resources to fight the soviet troops. Then, soviets can be gamey, attack Dza (1 inf), ignore all the rest of mongoliamen totally and open a new front against Japan in China, and Japan cannot make use of those 6 mongoliamen that in a real world would join Japan or at least defend as a whole country

Any case is highly probable that without a non-agression rule Japan and USSR will fight, and soon, and that is going to unbalance the whole Asian theater unless testers did a superb good job, all just because Larry likes senseless ACME walls everywhere and dislikes a historical non-agression pact rule. Given the last results with the testing in AA50 and AAP40, my bet is a great failure

Resume: we have not two separate fronts (China vs Japan & USSR vs Japan), in fact Mongolia is the center of the Soviet-China-Japan front and it’s open to gamey exploits because of poor rules

Prediction: we’ll have to mod the neutral rules and make a non-agression pact house rule

If there is a Manchuoko IC, Japan will have to defend it like heck. Therefore, Money still kept up north! :^)

@Croesus:

If there is a Manchuoko IC, Japan will have to defend it like heck. Therefore, Money still kept up north! :^)

It’s not much difficult defending it, specially if it’s a mayor IC. I doubt that soviets or chinamen have enough power to even get near to Manchuria with chances of taking and holding it … Japan could even get gamey and make a Korea IC just to exploit the ACME wall and ignoring one enemy, but I doubt they have the need of doing it, and anyway in Manchuria, the IC, if lost, is destroyed by chinamen lightsabres (chinamen can destroy ICs for some reason), so it’s not going to aid allies too much and Japan could afford trade Manchuria if needed. The only power that could menace Manchuria is USA, but Japan can see them coming and it’s easy at least blocking with a dd … it’s not much more difficult than defending Japan itself

If it works like in AA50, Manchuria IC will produce mainly tanks (and now maybe some mech infs), and it’s a pretty easy IC to defend and use. I think that even a minor IC could make the work of killing China and holding USSR

I’m in agreement w/McMan. Japan won’t be able to evacuate Manchuria to go all out on China, then India (like in Pac40). If it does Russia will swoop in and Japan will have to detour its attacks. So what you get is a smaller Jap force trying to take out China, because it now has to defend its Russian boarder. I’m glad there is no NAP, because that would have just created yet another acme wall and Jap would not have to worry about Russia coming in (just like in Pac40). Then when China makes its last stand, Russia backs them up (maybe w/AA gun a couple inf, a plane and a tank), delaying Jap yet again. Jap starts the game with limited ground troops in Asia as it is, so it will definitely be looking to build an IC early. Putting an (major) IC in Manchuria will be good for def/attack Russia & China, but is a long way from India. In the Global game will it still be as good a strat to try and eliminate China early, or would it be better to take what you can from China (to limit what they can build), and go straight for India. India will come with its own new problems, as UK can now bring in reinforcements if it wants to.

Anyway Jap will have many more challenges in the global game, it will not be able to just do as it pleases. It will have to choose a direction, but stay flexible. It now has 4 allies gunning for it, and will get little (or no) help from its own friends. The allies will get multiple cracks at Jap in each round if they plan it right because of turn order. As for Mongolia, I don’t see what the big deal is here, in AA50 you couldn’t even enter it. Now at least you can move/fight through it to cut off your enemy, but it will take a few turns to do it, and may cost you a couple of units.

Here is a copy of Larry’s (in depth) post of a global game he is involved in at the present time. He was responding to a post about bringing Jap aircraft to Europe. He is in the 8 th round, and it sounds like Jap is having some trouble. I thought is was a great read, and it was quite fitting to this this topic.

Larry’s quote:
_Well if you insist on bringing Japanese aircraft to Europe by all means go ahead.

I kind of think Japan is going to need all the aircraft it has and then some.

I’m in the middle of Global40 game. You know… that’s the combined A&A Europe 40 and A&A Pacific 40 games. It’s about the middle of the 8th round presently, Britain’s turn actually.

The general situation is as follows:
Germany and Russia have turned Ukraine into a back and forth battlefield littered with burning tanks from both sides. The Germans, early on, build a minor factory in Romania. This factory has become the hub of the advance on Stalingrad but the Russians have been stubbornly holding the line at Ukraine in spite of massive German Luftwaffe and armor attacks.

Germany has fared much better with its Northern Army. It appears, by the way, that the German advance into Russia consist of 3 armies. The Northern Army, focused on Leningrad, the Central Army, primarily out of Eastern Poland, and focusing on Russian resistance in Belarus and Western Ukraine, and finally the Southern Army, more on them in a minute. They, the Northern Army have managed to get into Novgorod (where Leningrad is located) and have managed to collect a bonus for Leningrad’s capture and occupation. Russia is one tough nut to crack, however, and the Germans are beginning to understand just how deep and far away Moscow is.

Speaking of Russia… It has not attacked or been attacked by Japan. Presently there are 18 Soviet infantry units in 3 blocks of 6 infantry each and each located in Amur, Sakha or Siberia. The Japanese maintained a good counter balance with its forces heavily represented in Manchuria. That situation has dramatically eroded, however. Japan has been forced over time to slowly recruit fighters and dive bombers from the Manchurian occupation force. The Russians have managed to keep the tensions along this border to a minimum by never consolidating its entire Far Eastern army along the Manchuria/Amur border. Not feeling threatened, or enticed by Russian weakness, the Manchurian Japanese army has felt secure enough to slowly dwindle away and now are alarming weak should the Russians make a play in that part of the world.

That’s only one of many problems Japan has been having. The British and ANZAC forces have managed to bring “some” land units and “lots” of aircraft to Java and managed to turn that island into a fortress of sorts. This has proven to be frustrating to the Japanese efforts to capture all of the Dutch East Indies. In fact, this little island defense has managed to keep the Japanese combined fleets at virtually a stand still. It could be argued that the Japanese have waisted too many turns trying to figure out how to take this heroic fortified island with its limited number of Japanese transports and land units in that part of the world.

In the meantime the US has been constantly building a reasonable force centered around Midway and the Hawaiian Islands. This, I might add, has been at the expense of the European effort. With no real Japanese forces between them and Japan itself, the Americans have managed to conduct air attacks against much needed new transports and other ships being built of the Japanese coastline (sea zone 6). The Americans have managed to do this in spite of Japan’s ability to scramble large numbers of fighters and tactical aircraft. The last US raid on sea zone 6 bagged a brand spanking new Japanese battleship that the Japanese player felt obliged to construct, what with the ever growing US Navy presence in the North Western Pacific. This need to build a battleship at this point of the game is the direct results of battering they took when the two giant fleets finally did collide. That happened when the Japanese player absolutely and reasonably concluded that he had to move his Southern Asiatic fleet North and destroy the American Navy… Both sides took big hits but the US prevailed and came out on top. The Japanese also experienced some silly loses of precious cruiser and destroyers on several ill fated adventures against the ANZAC islands around New Guinea early on in the game. Arrogant bastards!

In China… I think the Japanese, in spite of their constructed minor factory in Kiangsu (Shanghai), have been outfoxed by the elusive Chinese. This is in spite of the 3 tanks per round being built directly in China. To be as kind as I can be… they have not shown much results for their time and money. Case in point, the Burma road has only be closed twice (if I remember correctly).

At this late point in the game and Japan not doing so well, the Japanese player is wondering where it all went wrong. But for a few tanks in Kiangsu and an infantry unit in Kiangsi, Japan is completely out of China – except of course for its relatively small force in Manchuria consisting of 4 infantry, a mechanized infantry unit and one of those tiny Japanese cannons with those round Napoleonic type wheels. I do believe that Russia will not be able to resist the forbidden fruits of Manchuria for much long. Speaking of this Russian force… Stalin felt it best to keep them in the Far East to maintain a balance of power or at least make it unattractive for the busy Japanese from venturing into that meat grinder. At the time, the distance between the Soviet Far East and the frontlines around Moscow seemed impossibly distanced from one another – so they stayed put, and that may turn out to be a good thing. Its true that the Germans are whipping ass along the eastern front but there seems to be a never ending line of new Russian infantry with a sprinkling of t-34s along the line. It’s kind of like an elephant attacking an ant hill. The elephant stumps on one hell of a lot of ants but eventually the ants are going to end up eating the elephant… burp! I’m not really being fair to the Germans… That fight is far from over, and who knows… perhaps the elephant my kill all the ants… stump, stump stump!

It did get hairy for the Russians when an Italian armor unit assisted by an Italian fighter managed to cross over into the Caucasus from Iran, but that small force was pushed back. Still, the Russians hated to expend resources in that direction, what with the battle for the Ukraine and Rostov being so hotly contested. Even at this point It’s not sure which way this battle will go. The side that wins it will probably win the war – at least in Europe.

What’s happening on the Western Front you ask? Where is the 2nd front!? Except for some strategic bombings of the major factory in Western Germany, the Brits have not managed to gather and implement an invasion fleet. The Germans have masterfully combined submarines, operating off the French coast Normandy/Bordeaux, and tactical bombers and fighters, located in Holland/Belgium and Western Germany, in such a way that the British fleet has never been able to gel.
The largest British ship concentration is a carrier with a tactical bomber and fighter – in other words fully loaded along with a cruiser that began the game off the Uruguay/Brazilian coast. In the same sea zone, at the outer mouth of the Mediterranean, the US has a modest presence… 6 transports that shuffle back and forth between the Eastern United States and Morocco and a couple of escorting destroyers. Three transports always coming and three transports always going. The French navy, at least what’s left of it, is also at this precarious gathering. The problem – and there is one … is that if any of the three allies withdraw from this gathering the remaining force will get clobbered by the Italian navy that is safely setting in the same sea zone as the island of Sicily, which I might add has its own airbase and lots of ready and willing fighters that can scramble to the defense of its 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers and a battleship should the allies dare attempt to eliminate that force and venture back into the Med. You see, the Italians, like the allies, are both being served by strategically important naval bases (Gibraltar and Southern Italy) that permit both sides to move 3 spaces. Neither one wants to be the first to attack the other. The Italians are fairly better off however, but nonetheless, the allies, spearheaded by the Americans are moving East across North Africa. There will most certainly be a showdown at Tubruk.

Egypt fell way back when… The Italians AND the Germans (with two armor units) have a rather large force there. The Italians took a risk and built a minor factory in Egypt. It has served them well. They now reach as far south as the Belgian Congo and Tanganyika Territory. They only thing stopping the Italians from overrunning all of sub-Sahara Africa is the South African factory frantically producing 3 armor units a turn. How did the Germans get to Egypt you ask… Well they built a transport in Sud de France, they could do that because the German and Italian player agreed that it would be better if the Germans had the IPCs for the territory but more importantly, that the Germans have access to a Mediterranean coastline. Eventually the German player moved a couple of tanks to Egypt and picked up a fairly nice income bonus of 3 IPCs per turn for just being there! How did those transports slip by the Allied aircraft and ships… Easy, they were surrounded by Italian war ships that begged that they be attacked so that they could destroy the attackers in piecemeal. That attack never came.

Anyway this is one of the latest games of Global 40 I’ve played. I need to get ready for Gencon you know… This game has been a blast, as they all have been actually. I kid you not. Playing these combined games is a totally new experience. It feels wide open and extremely epic in scale. The territories don’t feel crowded. The way they connect and interact provides for many more possible ways to skin a cat.

Oh what about that Russian battleship in the Baltic…? It was only after it set sail and managed to knock out two German subs and a valuable transport that the German player even took notice of it. Prior to that the German navy and air force had other pressing things to tend to. In any case the German player finally attacked the battleship. He only managed to damage it, however. As soon as the German turn was over the crippled Russian Battleship made its way back to Leningrad and was finally sunk along with a transport that happened to be present. By the way… this same combination of Russian ships did manage to conduct an amphibious assault against German occupied Finland. That alone should have driven home the message that that battleships should be a high priority target – but noooo. They were part of a two prong attack against Finland that proved successful and threw the Germans high command into hysteria what with the threat to Norway and all.

At this point, turn 8, the Germans have still not been able to recapture Finland. There are no Russian units actually left in Finland. They’ve all been long ago eliminated by German air attacks, but the Germans are so hard pressed by advancing Russian hordes of infantry that they dare not detach a force to actually grab it. verdammten Ameisen (Damned ants)._

Link?

@calvinhobbesliker:

Link?

It’s all under the thread “Interesting post by Larry Harris” … actually much of this stuff has been discussed already in that thread. I have been wondering where you were Calvin, as I figured you’d have some comments on it.

@LHoffman:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Link?

It’s all under the thread “Interesting post by Larry Harris” … actually much of this stuff has been discussed already in that thread. I have been wondering where you were Calvin, as I figured you’d have some comments on it.

I’ve been in London the past 4-5 days(except 1 day where I went to Paris) and had little internet access. Now, I’m in India, and I have gotten access.