Should U.S. troops remain in Germany??


  • With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!! Now that is scary!! The people don’t realize how they are screwing themselves. In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration. When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. Not only that some had no kids and didn’t plan to have any!!! And if i brought it up they say that women having kids is so right wing???!!??? NOW THAT IS SCARY WOMEN OF EUROPE THINKING THAT HAVING KIDS IS SO RIGHT WING!! And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!

    Perhaps, the world is overpopulated enough [esp. Japan]? Or when they have kids, they make sure they can provide for them (unlike pregnant schoolgirls…)

    How many gunless countries are police states now?? And iºm not talking about the little banana republics, but rather civilized countries.

    Hmmm… Brits did not call themselves “civilized” back then? Makes me forget what Imperialism was all about… :roll:

    No they come down here cause our system is better, and they pay for the better care. Most Canadians I have meet in person or chatted with online say 2 things, come to U.S. for better health care even if they have to pay, or stay here and pay less taxes. They don’t come down here for simple medical stuff.

    Living in Canada, I didn’t notice that big of a difference, except high sales tax in Canada. Now that is what ticks me off. :evil:

    *T_VI (& D_S_), you are mistaken! I spent time in S. Korea when done in Nam. Still stay in touch with some SKs I met. The US media covers the vocal minority liberal ‘I’ve had it all handed to me so I don’t value it’ college students as if they were the majority. I’ve been there in the last 3 years and seen it myself.

    I said “a lot” –- NOT MOST…

    Yanny… you think the British parliment is whacky, I’d suggest you watch my Canadian parliment in action but I’d fear you would lose respect for Canada, hell after 5 minutes of watching those clowns I lose respect for Canada

    What are you talking about? That’s the best part in C-SPAN! :D
    I like when they throw papers around and make funny faces. :)


  • Yanny… you think the British parliment is whacky, I’d suggest you watch my Canadian parliment in action but I’d fear you would lose respect for Canada, hell after 5 minutes of watching those clowns I lose respect for Canada

    What are you talking about? That’s the best part in C-SPAN! :D
    I like when they throw papers around and make funny faces. :)

    …so true…

    Ozone27


  • Waraxis…. Until recently Canada had just 3 major federal parties. Progresive Conservative (Republican), Liberal (Democrat) and the New Democratic Party (ummmmm, a cross between communists and environmentalist and wishful thinkers…). For the most part each of the 10 provinces has the same 3 parties. Recently however we have the Bloc Quebecouis, who in the US would be taken out and shot as traitors and perhaps given a trial afterwards. However the federal governnment supports them in their right to try and take Quebec out of Canada. Luckily, most of those who want to seperate are old blood French who don’t make alot of babies. The immigrants seem to think staying in Canada is better for them then letting some kinda scary seperatists run their affairs. Then there is the western based Reform party that just changed it’s name to the Canadian Alliance. They are a bit more right then the Conservative party, kinda like super republicans. But having 2 parties on the right means the vote gets split and the left vote goes to the liberals. We are doomed to be ruled by this party until the 2 parties on the right unite.

    BB


  • @waraxis:

    With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!!

    I disagree with the first, second, third and fifth. There is a difference between promoting “women not having children” and not promoting “women having children”. A subtle difference, but an important one. The gun rights have been addressed already, and for the one sided pilitical system… i will come to that later.

    In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration.

    Are native americans the majority? Is diversity a bad thing? … The problem is the european mindset often enough (exception netherlands, example germany) of not letting the immigrants become part of the contries people.

    When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. … And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!

    It is a problem of industrialized countries with high educational standards. Not a problem of specific countries. And with about 9 billion people on this planet by 2050, i can’t see what is so bad about having less than two childs.

    Do you know what happens when you give up your guns rights you are asking for a police state!!! … so please don’t say anything bad about my country. I hope this isn’t taken as a flame of anykind. Please excuse the saying

    It’s not taken for a flame, but:
    did you notice that i brought up one point that scres me personally, and you answered with a mass of points, “accusing” in the same way that mine (which was not meant to insult, i sound different then). I never called the US a one-sided police state, but you implied that on Germany…
    Be careful that your patriotism doesn’t take you to see attacks on your country where there are none! That can isolate you quickly.

    @waraxis:

    I did not mean you have no gun rights you then get a police state what I meant was that if the government gets out of control then what do you do?? A disarmed people have no way to resist a government that decides what rights a people can have.

    Strike. Something that has a tradition and history in Europe and has worked out fine to bring down the GDR, to let the Kapp-regime collapse after only a few days (during the Weimar Republic), to force out the french occupation of the rhine valley (after WWI when Germany could not pay their reparation rates to the french).
    Have a look at your history book…
    Ever heard of India? Why are they free, when they did not use any violence?

    …You don’t consider the one-sided democracy that Europe has being a non-free democracy?? The parties are all left wing for the most part!! I don’t call that a free society

    No, the US is right wing all the way. That’s not what i call a free society.
    …This is to demonstrate how plausible your comment sounded to me: not at all, it does make no sense to me. I don’t consider all parties here left wing. If you do, then i have to assume that you are ultra-right wing to the max.
    Did it ever come to your mind: If we europeans wanted another party (that you would call right wing), would we not have founded it already? That happens over here, we have parties that are younger than 25 years and in the gov’t, on state level it is even “faster”!! It is the people’s will not to have these parties that you miss. Accept it, but never call it “non-free”: You insult me by that, by your ignorance of how europeans feel.
    Add this to the “too much patriotism” i warned you about before: If you start such things, to obtrude your defintions onto other people, you make a big step towards nationalism.

    And with this Eroupean union thing I don’t recall a vote being taken for it. You may be right though most Europeans would vote for it. I’ll never understand the average Europeans love for their cradle to grave society??

    We voted for it, we still vote for the european parliament, and i will never understand how the average American love their cutthroat and backstab society……
    (just trying to retro-reflect your words from my point of view, not as an insult, but to make you see how you easy you can insult others by not picking your words carefully)

    @Xi:

    @F_k:

    …and told a US truck driver which way to go. :)

    I hope you meant that in a nice way!

    Of course i did. And i even told him the right way to go ;) :D…. no, really, i am a nice person in general… the problem is that some of the things that i can’t stand turn up in this forum often enough… and as i did not know anything about that soldier, why should i not have been nice to him?

    @Xi:

    ? I think kids need to know they will answer to other countries laws. It’s not a " You can’t do that to me! I’m a US citizen," world! I always got a kick out of idiots with that mentality.

    It would be nice if there were more people who thought like that. Especially tourists (and there are a lot of ignorant german tourists) are good at that wrong kind of mentality.


  • B_B & O_7, ARM :P for the clarification.

    F_k, yes, the US is a nation of majority native Americans.
    We were born here.
    signed - A native American in both ways! :P :roll:

    As for the Ignorant Americans … a common European concept … the majority of Americans have never stepped outside the US, most have never carried on a prolonged (serious, cursing matches do not count)conversation with a non-US citizen. After all, we are a nation/culture isolated from civilization (read Europe) by an ocean. However, now that the Internet is being put to better use, give it 20 years and let’s see where we stand. Again a generation must exit and a new one learn. We do not live in Europe, where most can jump in a vehicle and be in another 3+ countries/cultures within 4 hours.
    And I know that countries in W & E Europe do not always agree (I won’t mention the disagreements between W European countries :oops: ,sorry.)


  • Ozone27 the reason why the government is doing that is because of the low birth rates. Why are there low birth rates, could it be cause German women are told not to worry about having kids? I mean if they want to die out as a ethnic group thats their business (would bother me some a little, cause on my mothers side I have some gerrman blood in my veins)
    And I like German culture( the good culture that is) and believe it should be around for future generations. But what gets me the most is that there are people in U.S. who want to be like Europe with gun control and stuff like that. And In no way do I want to live under big European governmet!! And Ozone27 there is no way you can tell me that there are that many guns in Germany under non-government control. Law enforcement is governmet and just how many hunters are there in Germany??
    By the way Ozone27 I have never said being non-white would hurt Europe, but low birth rates and heavy socalism will. Some socalism is ok but not too much. AND I DO READ THE POSTS but I may have jumped the gun there so I submit on the tone of my rant.


  • Another thing Ozone27 you also brought up the idea with that tank verse gun example. In guerilla warfare tanks are not that big of a deal. Which would most of the fighting would be. I think you are forgeting the other angle in this debate. The National Guard, they were meant to be like a mililtia , helping with roit control and in state problems. But at the same they were supposed to be a counter weight to the federal army. But now the Federal Government has some control of it. I think it might of happened during a court case right before the 91 gulf war but I’m not too sure. You want me to throw in my gun rights then please make the National guard 100% seperate form the federal government. When this government was founded it was all about checks and balances. 3 Civilian ones :Excutive,Judicial, and legistration. We also are supposed to have 3 military ones as well: Federal army, National Gaurd and priviate ownership of guns. IF one steps out of line the other 2 put it back in place, Military or Civilian. Please excuse my spelling.

    “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” Benjamin Franklin


  • If (and it’s a big “if”) it comes to the point where the interests of the government are in direct opposition to those of the people, a general strike has been proven to be more effective–not to mention more peaceful & civilized–an option than armed (and hopeless) guerrilla war of a few combatants vs. the might of a national army. General strikes (and the threat thereof) have been used–most recently in the case of Yugoslavia–very effectively to oust unpopular regimes.

    This is a waaay better option than having various, independent armed forces tramping around their country in opposition to one another. That was tried before here in the USA. It is doubtful to me that had the state militias been under the direct control of the Federal government, that the Southern States could’ve contemplated a secessionary movement. In the end, they lost anyway, because their opponents could call on greater industrial power, manpower & especially organization than the South could. Is it good that the Confederacy were able to make their opinions felt by brute force of arms due to a virtually independent State-level militia force? HELL NO!

    They had little chance then, and modern militas have even less chance now.

    Plus a general strike is effective within just a few DAYS and not the months & years of bloodshed a civil war unleashes…

    Ozone27


  • Ozone27 In the Civil War the North had the support of the people of the North!! In a guerilla war between the government and the people, the Federal government would be hard press if their civilian support droped!
    The North won the war between the states because the average person in the North supported the war. Although in New york that was a differnet story. They had some large riots from what I hear.

    I think you are missing the point Ozone27 I’m not calling for people to be running around loaded up like Rambo. All I ask is that people think about their gun rights more. And what do you do If the government arrests the strike leaders?? Then what?? Strike about that?? Fine then the government arrests those people as well?? See how it goes around and round. So what do you think about Franklin’s quote I had??


  • F_alk racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble. No war I believe but sooner or later the nation, empire or what ever will collapse in on itself. Ever hear of the term A house devided can’t stand I forget the rest but you get the point. If most new births come from 3rd world what wil happen to 1st world countries?? Let them immagrate, then what if they don’t to become part of the culture there?? I’ll say it again: Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    I’m sorry about jumping down your throat like I did with the gun thing, its just that I have read quite a bit of what has happened to certain people who gave up theres.

    Your point about striking I don’t think would work in a police state. Please elborate on that point.

    I thought your point F_alk about U.S. being right wing all the way has being real funny. Ever hear of the Green Party or the Democrat Party??

    And about that us being cutthroat and backstabbing What can I say we play rough here in the states and thats the way we like it :D


  • Well said, war__ & O__7!

    I support the right to keep and arm bears. Grr! :wink:


  • @waraxis:

    F_alk racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble.

    Are you so sure about that they don’t wanto to become part of the society? Or is society the thing that hinders them in becoming a part? (That is more usual over here. In germany, the fourth generation turks don’t “want” to become part, because we didn’t accept the first, second and third generation turks as equals).
    And have a look at the “way back” immigrants: most of you still can trace where they came from, and if someone is “pure blooded” then i suppose there is a lot of pride still in those, becasue of that ancestry, keeping traditions of that ancestry alive…. is that something that you won’t allow the newcomers? How long took it for the “way back” immigrants to become “real” americans? Are the newcomers allowed the same time?

    Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    So, you would say that all the Irish celebrations should be forbidden, all the Italian celebrations as well etc.?
    They are multi-cultural!

    Your point about striking I don’t think would work in a police state. Please elborate on that point.

    That is beside the point: you said something like:
    No guns will lead to a police state, as the citizens can’t stand up against the gov’t.
    That is not true, and there is historical evidence against that.
    The GDR was a police state, and fell without violence.
    But iwas more aiming on people can prevent a state to become a police state without having weapons: If the state wants to set up a new law towards creating a police state, you can go on strike. The Kapp coup d’etat has failed because of that. etc.

    I thought your point F_alk about U.S. being right wing all the way has being real funny. Ever hear of the Green Party or the Democrat Party??

    Well, i know of the Greens, but i would not call the Democrats “left” (just as i wouldn’t call the german Social Democrat Party “left”). The Greens are by the way the party i was refering to, which is in the gov’t over here and i bet they are in some more in Europe.

    And about that us being cutthroat and backstabbing What can I say we play rough here in the states and thats the way we like it :D

    Then, if you like it, does that mean i have to like it? It sounded like that in your previous post. It sounded like you knew what was good and right, and we didn’t.
    That is something about multi-culture that is important, not only in a single country, but more important when dealing with different countries: you have to know and accept their culture, or you will appear as an arrogant bastard to them.


  • The point of a general strike is that it is GENERAL. The whole population (or a signifigant portion of it) takes to the streets & refuses to work. Not talking about the Teamsters here, I’m talking about EVERYONE. The strike “leaders” can’t be arrested because how is the government going to identify & get near them when the streets are filled with angry uncooperative people, taking control of police stations & public broadcast systems (TV, radio stations etc.)

    F_alk is right on about the example of the GDR, and I already mentioned Yugoslavia. No doubt a few people were hurt, but that was nothing compared to the wholesale violence & destruction a civil war would have caused.

    F_alk, that is a great point about the Turks in Germany. It’s good to read from a German who obviously tries to understand Turks on their own terms from their own perspective. All too many Germans just want the Turks to leave (a lot from areas where there are few-to-no Turks!)…

    Re: gun control, as I stated before, I do think Americans have a right to keep & own firearms–but only to the point where they are actually endangering other people. You can’t hurt someone w/ mere words (not physically anyway), so freedom of speech is different. It’s not infringing on gun rights to say you should be responsible w/ it. What is so awful about limiting gun use to responsible people who are going to be safe with them? That’s most people I think–just not a few nutjobs. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think the F. Fathers meant (in spirit, if not by the letter of the poorly written Amendment) for people to be able to run around with completely unfettered use of weapons–I think they envisioned a bit more responsibility & respect for your fellow Americans.

    Ozone27


  • I was in West Germany at the time when the GDR (East Germany) fell apart. That had nothing to do with a strike. It was on its last legs anyway!!! At that time most of the German communists in the GDR were more loyal to their fellow Germans than to Marxist dogma!! Before any such strike took place, people were already leaving East Germany through Czechslovakia and I think through Hungary as well. Do you think that would of happened if somebody like Stalin was in power?? Do you understand the real meaning of a police state or a Nation that is in trouble of becomming one??

    And no F_alk I have no trouble with people celebrating their race or heratiage!! Or even speaking their former language and not speaking English,but when the time comes they need to show loyalty to their current nation.

    True that entire Democrat party isn’t Left but at the same time you can’t say their leadership is left leaning!! About this Social Democrat Party would you please tell me some of their political ideas. I would like to know about them.

    I hope you don’t think I hate leftistism, there is merit to some of their ideas, it’s just that come vote time i like more choices than just : Kinda left party, the left party or the WAY to the left party. And before you bring up mine you are right mine is screwed up as well!!!

    Ozone27 the founding members of this country got it right the first time, and besides Ozone27,me and F_alk were debating the whole idea of gun rights I have no problem people taking a PYSCHE test before they own one. All I ask guys is for checks and balances. Thats all!!


  • Oh, there was a DEBATE going on? I’m sorry to have interrupted… :wink:

    How is the fact that the people of the GDR refused to work, refused to listen to the government, and in large part decided to leave the country different from a general strike? ANY government that is in direct opposition to the will of its people is “on its last legs”. What are you talking about–that fascist countries are the only type of “police states”? Are you saying the GDR was NOT a police state? I don’t understand what you are saying here at all…

    The fact that you don’t even know who the SPD are casts doubt–in MY mind at least–that you know the least bit about European politics, or really anything you have been talking about at all. Just my opinion as of right now… :wink:

    Ozone27


  • @Ozone27:

    F_alk, that is a great point about the Turks in Germany. It’s good to read from a German who obviously tries to understand Turks on their own terms from their own perspective. All too many Germans just want the Turks to leave (a lot from areas where there are few-to-no Turks!)…

    Too true. It seems like those Germans who don’t know any foreigners are the loudest ones when it comes to “Germany to the Germans” and “All foreigners are just here to benefit from our social system”. Often enough, those loud shouters are pretty uneducated as well (the educated “racists” have more subtle means, of course).
    Germany had a long debate wether we should accept and declare that we are an immigration country. The compromise reached was kind of a silent acceptance of this fact, but not saying it loudly, because you could lose the votes of those who don’t want anything but “tall, blond, blue-eyed” in their neighborhood.
    The mass of the people too often behaves like a herd of cattle, with about that much will and about that thinking on things and “facts” that they are fed with.


  • @waraxis:

    I was in West Germany at the time when the GDR (East Germany) fell apart. That had nothing to do with a strike.

    True, there were no strikes. Only peaceful, unarmed mass demonstrations that more or less promised civilian disobedience.

    Do you understand the real meaning of a police state or a Nation that is in trouble of becomming one??

    So, Ozone mentioned it already…. the GDR was a police state. If it wasn’t, then there were very very few ones in the history of mankind.

    but when the time comes they need to show loyalty to their current nation.

    So you surely would not support the leader of the German opposition party in the German parliament. She came over to the US, met with some senators, AFAIR C. Rice, D. Cheney and others. Honours that no other leader of the opposition from Germany has ever received. Now, the only point why she got that was that she was unloyal to her nation and gov’t. She clearly said that there were people not standing on Chancellor Schröders side…
    she is german, and illoyal… and not even a socialist or social democrat (the ones who in the history of Germany were frequently accused of being unpatriotic.)
    What to do with those? Why does your gov’t support people from freindly countries that would be spit on if they came from their own, because of not supporting the gov’t?

    About this Social Democrat Party would you please tell me some of their political ideas. I would like to know about them.

    It seems like their webpage is german only (http://www.spd.de), but they are active in the PES as well (http://www.pes.org/), so you might want to look there.

    me and F_alk were debating the whole idea of gun rights I have no problem people taking a PYSCHE test before they own one.

    That would be fine for me too. The point is that in the US everyone is free to own more or less very weapon available.

    @Ozone27:

    How is the fact that the people of the GDR refused to work, refused to listen to the government, and in large part decided to leave the country different from a general strike?

    Maybe i should have used civil disobedience instead of strike in the first place.


  • @war_:

    …racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble.

    @F_k:

    Are you so sure about that they don’t want to become part of the society? Or is society the thing that hinders them in becoming a part? (That is more usual over here. In germany, the fourth generation turks don’t “want” to become part, because we didn’t accept the first, second and third generation turks as equals).
    …look at the “way back” immigrants: most of you still can trace where they came from, and if someone is “pure blooded” then i suppose there is a lot of pride still in those, becasue of that ancestry, keeping traditions of that ancestry alive… is that something that you won’t allow the newcomers? How long took it for the “way back” immigrants to become “real” americans?.. newcomers allowed the same time?

    @war_:

    Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    @F_k:

    So, you would forbid Irish celebrations, all the Italian celebrations as well etc.? They are multi-cultural!

    Wanted to keep all the above arguments together.
    F_alk, I think you are putting words in war_'s mouth. Why don’t you define your definitions of ‘multicultural?’ I do not like the ‘M’ word!
    These festivals are not multicultural. they introduce one culture to another. In my hometown we have a Greek festival(Panegyri), a German festival(Oktoberfest, the largest one outside of Germany), and a St Patrick’s Day parade(I’ve been told it’s large for the size of our city.) No other big ones. These are all conducted mainly in English for communication and economic reasons(more people=more $.) These festivals use a few words/foods/activities of another culture to bring people together for fun.
    I believe war_ wants these folks to bring their differences. However, he wishes for them to learn our ways (to improve their situation[why they came])and teach us their ways so that we may learn, too. If they blend, rather than trying to create Little Uganda(make believe) or Little Havana(a real example), we as a nation become stronger.

    Or maybe he didn’t mean that.


  • @waraxis:

    As for the British Yanny Its not just their parties you have to admire but the people! Every British person I have met is very smart and well spoken even If I don’t always agree with them. Not only that most of the of the old british empire is like that: Canada, India, Australia, Hong Kong, and others. Everybody I have meet in person from these countries is very well educated. Even if they havn’t gone to a major college.

    ahhhh . . . have you been to these places? I fear that you have only met those with the means to visit, which is determined by higher income (and improved education).
    And thank you.


  • @BigBlocky:

    Waraxis…. Until recently Canada had just 3 major federal parties. Progresive Conservative (Republican), Liberal (Democrat) and the New Democratic Party (ummmmm, a cross between communists and environmentalist and wishful thinkers…). For the most part each of the 10 provinces has the same 3 parties. Recently however we have the Bloc Quebecouis, who in the US would be taken out and shot as traitors and perhaps given a trial afterwards. However the federal governnment supports them in their right to try and take Quebec out of Canada. Luckily, most of those who want to seperate are old blood French who don’t make alot of babies. The immigrants seem to think staying in Canada is better for them then letting some kinda scary seperatists run their affairs. Then there is the western based Reform party that just changed it’s name to the Canadian Alliance. They are a bit more right then the Conservative party, kinda like super republicans. But having 2 parties on the right means the vote gets split and the left vote goes to the liberals. We are doomed to be ruled by this party until the 2 parties on the right unite.

    BB

    well said.
    love the NDP line . . . tooo true.

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