Anyone who watched both Battle of Britain and Dunkirk understands which of the two is a better war movie
Could Germany have won "the Great Patriotic War?"
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Even Germany’s economy fully in the East wouldn’t have even come close to matching the Soviets. Besides, the German were lucky enough to do as well as they did… :-?
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If Germany was fighting a one front war against the Russians, I belive they could have fought Russia to a stand still.
I agree that taking Moscow would have done little in reguards to stopping the Russisans and in doing so, it would have been hell on earth.
The Germany army was not made for street to street fighting.
The Germans had 90% of Stalingrad at one point.
They lacked the vital riverbank on the east side of the Volga which Russia was using to reinforce the city daily.
It was a standoff there until Russia attacked the armies protecting the 6th armies flanks around stalingrad.
The armies assigned to protect 6th army were Italians and Romania.
Needless to say Russia rolled right over them.
Some parts of the Italian army surrendered without even firing a shot.
That attack encircled the German forces in and around Stalingrad and created a huge pocket. -
Go Italian army!
Mama didn’t raise Anthony to die in the frozen mud shooting at those gentle Russian farm boys.
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Go Italian army!
Mama didn’t raise Anthony to die in the frozen mud shooting at those gentle Russian farm boys.
LOL :lol: :lol:
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Hey, Senor Ghoul:: Drumstix would like us to post our AAEuro game in the Games thread. Care to paste moves there as we go along? Fine by me….
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Isn’t it funny that Poland would have been invaded even if Hitler had blitzed the French first? the USSR invaded Poland almost simultaneously; they were clearly out for gains, too. What an ally! :roll: With friends like these…
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Hey, Senor Ghoul:: Drumstix would like us to post our AAEuro game in the Games thread. Care to paste moves there as we go along? Fine by me….
Ya
Its all good. -
Poland has inherited one of those geographic legacies of double-edged value. Wonderful farmland, central location, good waterfront = all benefits for the economy! But these translate militarily into nice, flat, easy-to-roll-up territory, immediately accessible by many foes from every direction!
The book POLAND by James Michener is a great read. My favorite chapters cover the Euro Christianoid armies (from France, Germany & Poland) marching to Vienna with Jan Sobieski at the helm (circa 1270??), arriving just in time to break the siege by the Turks, marking the high-water mark of their invasion into Europe. The book has at least three chapters about Poland being overrun or in dire shape by invasions; the chapter titles, if memory serves, are simply: “From the East,” “From the West,” “From the South.”
Another amazingly resilient tribe of people, the Poles (or Pollacks, depending on individual preference). After the living death of WWII and then 45 years of industrial zombiedom under the USSR, they inherited one of the most pervasive ecological wastelands on Earth, not to mention a bare-subsistence economy. Yet their efforts, led by Solidarnosc, were key to the crumbling of the Soviet Union, and now they have the strongest economy of the new members of the European Community.
I guess there’s something special in that kielbasa!
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I highly doubt the Russians could of fought the Germans solo for long. Here are my reasons.
- Without the British, the Germans would have their entire airforce free to bomb Russia.
- The German U-Boat and Navy fleets would be free to conduct heavier operations against the Russians (cutting off foreign aid).
- The Germans would probably take complete command of the Black Sea and amphibiously invade Geogia, cutting off the Russian oil supply.
- Berlin and German production facilities would be unharrassed.
- No African & Western Fronts
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Nifty strategic points, Y-man.
Does anyone know where to find decent info regarding how much materiel was provided to USSR by the Allies during WWII (e.g., percent of steel and other raw assets, percent of total Soviet armored vehicles, etc.)
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Well, tank production I know was almost entirely Soviet. So was Oil and Food production. Allied aid probably came in communication equipment, intelligence, ground transport vehicles, Anti Aircraft guns, ect. Most of the front line stuff was Soviet Made, with Soviet Iron and running on Soviet Oil.
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If Britian had stayed out of the war pearl habor would probably either not occur or result in a Yankish-Japanese war.
If Halifax had become Prime Minister he might have ended it either to save the troops at Dunkirk. If the Germans hadn’t held back the British would have taken serious losses (100,000+ in dead and captured)
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@city:
Isn’t it funny that Poland would have been invaded even if Hitler had blitzed the French first? the USSR invaded Poland almost simultaneously; they were clearly out for gains, too. What an ally! :roll: With friends like these…
Well, during the early stages of the war, there was a non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR. The USSR was not at all part of the allies until Germany attacked them. These good relations probably have historical roots as well, with the germans “launching” the revolution of 1917 (by bringing Lenin in), plus good relations during the Weimar Republic times. This and the attidute of the west of never fully accepting the USSR (until the germna invasion and only as long as the war lasted) as a partner might have led to to the russo-german partnership.
And of course, both countries were dictatorships, with extremely ruthless dictators. -
Strictly a marriage of convenience! For Hitler, keep Russia out of the situation until we are secure in the West. For Stalin, get my share of Polish real estate – which also just might be a buffer once this maniac gets set to attack me!
For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)
Anyway, Russia has been invaded by swarms from the west since time immemorial. Stalin knew that, regardless of any warmer recent relations. Your point is nevertheless well taken F_alk, because there must have been open and somewhat cozy lines of communication for the secret pact dividing Poland to have been established. And look at relations since 1945: Germany and USSR were always ahead of the rest in doing business across the Iron Curtain. I maintain that geography is destiny: As the main economic power in Europe proper, due in part to its central location, Germany would always be the logical partner with a westward-looking Russia.
((The real way for Hitler’s Reich to have staying power would have been to keep Russia on its side – how about THAT as a topic: how would the African and Balkan fronts have worked out, not to mention the plans to take down Britain, had Berlin-Moscow relations remained cordial? A chilling prospect.))
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Strictly a marriage of convenience! For Hitler, keep Russia out of the situation until we are secure in the West. For Stalin, get my share of Polish real estate – which also just might be a buffer once this maniac gets set to attack me!
For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)
I heard about that movie. Do you know when it was shot? Anyway, in the late WW1, the germans already had that helmet that they used in WW2 as well.
THe movie btw was banned by Stalin during the non-agression time :)
For more info: see
http://www.dvdreview.com/html/alexander_nevsky___ivan_the_terrible.htmlso, it was shot 1938 :) … and the lake was Lake Chudskoe called “Ledovoe Poboishche”…
…((The real way for Hitler’s Reich to have staying power would have been to keep Russia on its side – how about THAT as a topic: how would the African and Balkan fronts have worked out, not to mention the plans to take down Britain, had Berlin-Moscow relations remained cordial? A chilling prospect.))
Well, i guess than it would all have looked differently. I guess, we would have had a world of more superpowers then after the war: the US, east-european-asian USSR, central-west european Germany. The question is wether Japan would have done Pearl Harbor, or sticked to it’s chinese war.
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Japan’s motives in East Asia hand nothing to do with what Germany was doing.
Japan had been growing their sphere of influence long before WW2.
The Americans had sanctions against them as well.The motives behind attacking Pearl Harbour was a question of survival for the Empire of Japan, at the time.
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what if germany had not attach russia and made peace with th UK?
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@F_alk:
For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)
I heard about that movie. Do you know when it was shot? Anyway, in the late WW1, the germans already had that helmet that they used in WW2 as well.
THe movie btw was banned by Stalin during the non-agression time :)
For more info: see
http://www.dvdreview.com/html/alexander_nevsky___ivan_the_terrible.htmlso, it was shot 1938 :) … and the lake was Lake Chudskoe called “Ledovoe Poboishche”…
Right – great link you found there! The director, Sergei Eisenstein, is probably the greatest Russian filmmaker of the 20th century. Yet he was accused by Stalin of, among other things, “nostalgia” and hounded. His most often celebrated film is “Battleship Potemkin” which is built around the 1917 Russian Revolution, and is known for its amazing imagery and editing: one image in particular is a cinematic icon: the baby carriage by itself bumping down the vast stairs of the city hall after the crowd has been fired upon.
Right you are on the helmets – but think of seeing a version as early as 1250!! Talk about enduring design!
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@F_alk:
so, it was shot 1938 :) … and the lake was Lake Chudskoe calle “Ledovoe Poboishche”…
“Ledovoe” means made out of ice
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There is absolutely no way the Germans could ever have beat the Russians, even if the UK made peace. First of all, Germany’s population was a fraction of Russia’s; with the patriotism in Russia at the time (hence Great Patriotic War) every last man, woman, and child could have and very nearly was mobilized for the war effort. Were the Germans able to do that? The Russians win by pure brute force. But also the Germans never really mobilized their economy; Russia, on the other hand, managed to mobilize a huge economy in a rather short period of time (from virtually nothing, too). Do you know how much steel was being produced everyday in Russia? Tonnes and tonnes. They were pumping out T-34s (arguably the best tank of the was) 24 hours a day every day. Compare this to the hand crafted German designs, like the Pzkw. VI, of which nearly 18 could be made every day, not only did the Russians have a more durable design but they also had more steel on the front. Next, the Red Airforce may have been decimated but that means nothing. Airforces do not win wars, even now. Even the amount of damage done by the massive allied bombing campaigns had a negligable effect on the German economy untill late in the war when they were exhausted anyway. After the initial offensive the Germans were doomed to be crushed under the soviet juggernaut. Even if the forst offensive had worked in gaining Moscow the Russians would never have tolerated foreign rule. Imagine, a massive, disgruntled population that was under the power of a foreign state. I’d have loved to be a German occupying Russia at the time.
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